question on midi-chlorian counts

The search function isn't working that well for me so if this has already been answered please point me in the right direction, thanks.

We know Anakin had a midi-chlorian count in excess of 20,000. And thanks to books such as Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadows and Death Star, we also know: that counts as low as 2,000 midi-chlorians per cell provided no sensitivity to the Force, an average Human had less than 2,500 per cell, and a mildly Force-sensitive being such as Nova Stihl had a count in excess of 5,000.

So, has the counts of Mace, Yoda, Kenobi, Dooku, or Palpatine been mentioned in any book?

Thanks

 

No, they haven't.

 

Well, we know Yoda's below Anakin. Darth Lucas has also revealed that:

Palpatine has half Anakin's.
Luke's midichlorian count is equal to Anakin's before Mustafar; after Mustafar, Anakin's midichlorian count dropped by more than half. (Yes, I know, it makes no damn sense. I'll just say most of them were boiled alive.)
Leia's is equal to Luke's.

 

He didn't say anything of the sort about midichlorian counts; he was talking about potential overall, which covers a hell of a lot more than just how many little buggers you have going around in your cells...

 

Yeah, well, whenever he talks about it, my mind goes into "God, this guy is such a fanboy." mode.

 

It's best not to think about this.

 

It is strongly implied that the little buggers are what determines that potential, though. Those are really the only thing about Ani that would justify such comments as "Darth Vader will become stronger than either of us", and the 200% of Palp comment, which suddenly turned to 80% with loss of limbs.

 

Where does this info on Luke's and Palpatine's counts come from? It seems very unlikely to me that Luke's count would be the same as the Chosen One's. And as far as potential goes, Leia is a wuss for her count being the same as Luke's. This just goes to show that your midi count counts for nothing. It's all about individual will power, training and self dicipline. Otherwise Leia would be the most dangerous woman in the galaxy.

 

In Dark Lord, Palpatine is shown to believe that Vader's injuries are not what's holding him back; it's his unsureness of his place in the Force-Palpatine thinks of it as being stuck between worlds. He also considers Vader's relative immaturity to be holding him back, and Dark Lord shows us Palpatine smashing the last of Vader's self pity and egotistical manners.


The main issue that I think Vader's injuries really cause is physical pain. Using the Force deeply requires massive concentration. When you're a physical wreck who is in chronic pain all the time that's going to be difficult, and clearly Vader's body is a mess. However, I think that Vader learns to use his pain as a tool by focusing himself on it, and more importantly, focusing on his hatred of Obi-Wan for making him such a physical mess.

It's not something as intellectually lightweight as "he lost alot of body mass and that's why he can't use the Force as well anymore"; it's more "He was brutally injured and nearly died and the chronic pain he's in curbs his ability to focus fully until much later in life."

 

I'm down with that. He turns his physical as well as emotional pain into anger.

 

I've encountered Palp's musings on the topic, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Immaturity and uncertainty as reasons, which just happen to coincide with his duel on Mustafar? And both of these traits persist all the way until the OT era? If anything, I always thought Vader's change in ideals and behavior post-Mustafar was evidence of a renewed sense of certainty, even if an ill-born one. And immaturity? I've yet to see that...


If pain is what is holding Vader back, he should just have gotten stronger from how it feeds his anger and hatred. I'm not quite buying that Vader suffered because he suddenly couldn't concentrate for his Force manipulation any more, not when that same reason would strengthen his use of the dark side.

But that then crosses over into the details around how one's use of the Force compromised once one turns from light to dark, if any. On one hand, EU sources do seem to indicate that the two are mutually exclusive, indicating that Vader would need to relearn how to fuel with Force with anger rather than willpower. But Yoda in ESB says the dark side is quick to join you in a fight, indicating that it can be used as an immediate, and more powerful, substitute, in which case Vader should just have gotten stronger from his ordeal. Either way, I don't see any way Vader would be permanently negatively affected from his pain.

And then you of course have the controversial "Ani was given no anasthetic during his Vader surgery because it would rob him of midis, and Palp didn't want that", from Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.

We quickly run out of alternative explanations.

 

That's the thing, his anger would feed him and make him stronger during a fight, but not when useing more subtle abilities. Constant pain would keep him from battle meditation or anything else that would require major concentration, especially for prolonged periods of time.

 

And then you of course have the controversial "Ani was given no anasthetic during his Vader surgery because it would rob him of midis, and Palp didn't want that", from Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.

You know, the more you quote from that, the more glad I am I didn't read it. That's a gross oversimplification of a statement in ROTS-ICS, where it's stated Anakin wasn't on pain-killers because Palpatine wanted him in pain.


I mean, really, if painkillers kill midis, they'd probably be outlawed in the GFFA, as it's understood that everything that lives have them and life is impossible without them there. It'd be like if tylenol wiped out your mitochondria.


Palpatine's issues with Vader's mentality are seemingly mainly resolved by the end of Dark Lord-that doesn't mean Vader's reached the pinnacle of his abilities there, particularly as he's basically been squandering them as a Jedi for the last thirteen years. at the end of Dark Lord, Vader is firm in his place in the Force; call it his first step. The pain is still there, and he gradually learns how to make use of it. And when we finally see him in TESB at what I'd call the height of his skills, he's turned his pain into a tool and doesn't have a doubt or insecurity to speak of-until the next movie, anyway.

EDIT: As for immaturity-go see the scene in Dark Lord where he whines about how jacked-up looking Palpatine and he are, plus the scene where he lets the petty indignities of the suit bother him.

 

If that were the case, Sith in particular would be pretty useless guys, as they would then need combat or a familiar charged with kicking them in the nuts every time they needed to use the Force. And otherwise be left with no other option for Force use than the Jedi way, and that ain't very likely.

I used to think of this as a problem until Drew came along with PoD and explained how Sith use some sort of drive that emotions can be summoned in defense of, or response to. And it also says that through the dark side, the dark emotions fuel themselves. Combined, these easily lead to the thesis that Sith have this drive that they can hold on to, and focus on for some emotional spark when needed. A spark which then feeds itself until it becomes an genuine source of power.

And even the movie purist would be hard pressed to deny that if this or something similar isn't the case, a Sith would be night powerless outside of combat or other kinds of emotional trauma. Which would be problematic, to say the least.

 

Um, that's exactly how Baneite Sith are trained to use the Force: Get mad and go fight. It's discussed in detail in the Darth Maul journal and Dark Lord: Palpatine builds up Maul's hatred of the Jedi to an incredibly visceral point, and does the same thing with Vader. Dooku doesn't get the same treatment because he's a placeholder that Palpatine is planning to eliminate from the get-go.


Or, for that matter, look at Palpatine's face when he's electrocuting Luke. Doesn't exactly look calm and serene, does he? He's putting every bit of rage and hatred he can muster into those bolts.

 

It mentions something about this? I must look for that, then.

Well, it if is supposed to be painkillers in general, that would be pretty wierd, I agree. I just thought it was a matter of the painkillers required for that level of pain. Some strong stuff, in other words. But then, he should at least have been given something lesser. But that also falls through when Palp wanted him in pain to begin with.

Though it isn't entirely unreasonable for painkillers to be midi-destroying. The regular hospital presumably won't test and monitor midis, and make this a medical consideration. And if we assume the damage is limited, it would take a whole lot of painkillers to kill someone. It could then be seen as just an increased chance of OD'ing on painkillers compared to RL, because in the GFFA you risk midi death as well.

Well, Vader fresh from the forge being immature, that I can believe. 20 years later, that is more of a strech.

 

Right. Fits perfectly with using a drive to summon emotions from. Without needing special circumstances first.

Eck. Using facial expressions as indicators is not something I'm fond of. For Palpatine laughing like a maniac while throwing senate pods at Yoda would kill such a notion fairly quickly.

 

So he's grimacing...just because? Okay then.


He's laughing like a fool because he's completely pwning Yoda and both of them know it.

Yes, it does. It's got nothing to do with painkillers offing midis and everything to do with Palpatine wanting Anakin to feel loads of pain.

Not to mention that with somebody's who is so deep into shock as Anakin probably was by then that serious heavy-duty painkillers might well kill them.


EDIT: The ROTS talks alot about how Sith employ the Dark Side: Dooku specifically describes it as drawing the Force into the center of his being until he was/is the center of the galaxy. He also states that Anakin's rage is a gift as far as the Sith are considered. Palpatine also describes how focused anger and hate are the most powerful emotions when it comes to using the Dark Side in Dark Empire. Similarly, Vader goads Luke into anger in both their duels-or at least, tries to in TESB and does so successfully in ROTJ. And Palpatine congratulates Luke after this: "Your hate has made you powerful."


In other words, Sith focus on their hatred and anger to pump themselves up, so to speak. Anakin does pose the question of what happens when their passion runs dry in the ROTS novel, but so far as we know, that's never been a problem for him post-ROTS.

 

This can be thrown out the window as Lucas has explicitly stated that his reduction in potential is due to his injuries. Why is the question.

I don't think it's related to pain because he wouldn't be in the same amount of pain 20 years later.

Obviously, his concentration of midis wouldn't have decreased either.

It might have to do with being an incomplete system and more machine than man.

Whatever the reason, it most definately is due to his injuries.

 

Oh? That strikes me as rather odd, if true. What do RL hospitals do with victims of great trauma, then. Leave them in pain until they are stable? Give them painkillers that are too weak?

His count per cell, perhaps, but since Quigs says the midis reside in all living cells, his count total has to have been reduced from loss a limbs.

 

And Vader's unsureness of his place in the Force and physical pain and whatnot wasn't caused by his injuries?

The reliance on stuff "George Lucas says" really has no place in the EU when he's on the record as saying that Luke Skywalker never got married and the Emperor never got cloned, IMO.

I mean, as it happens, I'm generally in agreement with you on the "incomplete system" kind of thing. I just tend to think that Vader's limitations are more psychological in nature than they are physical and that there *was* a chance for him to fully reawaken the power within him.

He was making steps towards full physical regeneration in SotE, after all... and I think, had he extinguished the light from his heart, he'd have been able - eventually - to restore himself physically to he man he had once been, as he believes.

In that sense, though his limitations stem from physical handicaps, his inability to get over those physical handicaps is psychological. Or whatever. I'm just throwing stuff out here at present.

 

Agreed.

Personally, I just see it as largely PTSD, or shell shock, or whatever. Even if he was "technically" of reduced ability, when did that ever stop a Sith? A Jedi might accept their biological limitations, but Sith don't pursue immortality and arcane trinkets and amulets for no reason--they battle to surpass their physical limits.

Vader, though, is like a soldier who comes back from war without his legs. Sure, you can get very good prostheses these days, and in Star Wars virtually perfect ones; but that doesn't change the psychological damage that kind of injury does. It's like women having mastectomies; there are injuries that are much more about your psychological well-being than anything else. There's a reason doctors normally prefer not to have to amputate, or pull teeth, or chop off your bits if they can help it--even when it'd make you healthier. Very few people have the courage to completely conquer their disabilities and go on to win the paralympics, for instance--most people are still forever aware of their limitations, even if only on a subconscious level.

When you walk away from a pool of lava with... what left? A torso? I'm not exactly surprised you're ready to accept defeat. That kind of damage never stopped Sion, or Nihilus, or Andeddu, or the various other pure will driven Sith Lords who couldn't give a mynock's backside about their physical well-being though.

This is where it comes down to a simple fact: Vader was a pretty boy. If Lucas had cast an actor who was ugly, maybe he'd not have cared about losing his looks.

 

Well, yeah, think about it, part of what made Anakin an unstoppable force was his belief that he was unstoppable.

"Unbeatable... and he knows it. No-one comes close" WTTE from the RotS novel.

Then the immovable object that is Obi-Wan Kenobi proves him 100% WRONG and introduces the one thing that can cripple and weaken any Force user: doubt.

 

I disagree, one has nothing to do with the other.

On the one hand, you have Lucas' comment about his Star Wars stories, which only consists of the movies, and maybe the tv-shows as well.
That has absolutely nothing to do with his comments about what is allowed and what are the facts in the Star Wars galaxy as a whole.

While the EU isn't part of his story (obviously, as he didn't create most of it), they all still refer to his rules. As such, if he says that things are the way they are because of such and such, it's a fact and the absolute truth, until he changes his mind.

Whether Lucas views any EU-material as part of his story is completely irrelevant. Especially when you are discussing a topic which is directly connected to the movies, as is the case here.

 

I don't recall Lucas saying, "one of the rules for the EU is that you've gotta have it that Darth Vader lost potential when he was crippled on Mustafar" I remember him saying that "[Anakin] got cut up and lost a lot of power of the Force" when discussing "his Star Wars story" in the ESB commentary.

If we're going to take that as a "rule for the EU", why not take "Anakin restores balance to the Force by destroying all evil in the universe" as a "rule for the EU" too?

I'd ask you to show me something from Leland, but all that would give you is WTTE of "all statements made by George Lucas about Star Wars are G-Canon", which clearly can't be the case. Yay for cherry picking!

That said, I do understand what you're trying to say and we can use our intuition in these matters. Even so, the main point is that - even including what Lucas has said - there's no reason to assume that Vader's loss of potential has more to do with the physical wounds he recieved than the psychological ones that came with them. He can't generate Force Lightning due to his mechanical arms and, yes, in that sense he's 'lost potential'... but that could be the extent to which his physical handcap limits his force abilities.