Question regarding Grand Admiral Thrawn

Hi, I just have a curiosity regarding Grand Admiral Thrawn's use of the Chimaera as his flagship -- more specifically, his use of an Imperial Star Destroyer as his flagship. Due to his position of not only Grand Admiral, but de facto leader of the Galactic Empire, I'm always surprised that he did not utilize a Super Star Destroyer. As a naval specialist, the larger vessel would also allow him to carry a larger assortment of different vessels for him to use during different situations.

Anyone have any ideas or knowledge as to why an Imperial-II class?

Thanks

Brent

 

I don't think he had any "supers" available. The Pentastar Alignment wasn't going to just give him the Reaper.

 

He also picked out his ship with the commander in mind. He knew Pellaeon and admired him.

 

Pretty much. At this point, all SSDs were either destroyed, in warlord hands, or holed up in Deep Core fortress worlds under the Emperor's control. The Dark Empire Sourcebook states that Palpatine intentionally withheld support from Thrawn in order to make sure he failed. Thrawn thus was unable to field anything heavier than an ISD-II in his fleet.

 

Super Star Destroyers are very, very rare and none of the other Grand Admirals got any either for that matter. Favored Grand Moffs and special projects groups seem to have been the once awarded them as prestige company cars.

Even in the high days of the Empire they were just to big to keep properly supplied (see Saga Edition starships of the galaxy) and Thrawn was already having massive problems keeping his fleet supplied with trained crew, TIEs, ground troops, food etc having a Super Star Destroyer would actually have made him less flexible then his command group of ImpStars he used in coordinated quick raids, after all it still is just one ship and ImpStar could kill any Rebel ship one on one as well.

Of course the best reason to keep an ImpStar is that they are just way more classy then the overkill incarnate with their silly ways of getting destroyed

 

Elementary, my dear Watson. Supers weren't artistic enough for the good Grand Admiral.

Super Star Destroyers... so art nouveau. How does one plan tactics when one isn't even sure of their own command ship's length?

 

*cough* Whelm *cough*

Thrawn could have easily stashed away any spare Star Dreadnoughts or Star Battle Cruisers off to the Empire of the Hand, thus freeing their crews up for the sort of dispersal tactics he favored.

 

Whelm was awarded to Grand Admiral Teshik due to his command of the Sector Zero fleet guarding Coruscant. We're not even sure if she was a prestigious Executor-class; she may well have been an old Mandator or other smaller vessel. Grand Admiral Batch did have the Terror under his command, but he delegated her to Admiral Sarn. Grand Admiral Grunger did get his hands on the Aggressor, but that was post-Endor and part of his play for the Imperial throne.

In general, remember that the Grand Admirals were as much political and bureaucratic leaders (post-WWII, the Nuremberg prosecutor referred to Germany's Grand Admiral Raeder as "the political admiral") as military leaders - even Thrawn's portfolio was more staking out claims in the Unknown Regions than leading sweeping military campaigns as Vader did. Most of them had little operational need to establish their flag aboard an SSD. And as far as Thrawn squirreling away more powerful vessels in the Unknown Regions, remember his whole command out there was built of assets sneaked out of the Imperial Order of Battle. Imperial Star Destroyers were so common that nobody would catch half a dozen dropping out of sight. An SSD gone missing would have gotten everyone's attention. Plus they just weren't Thrawn's style, although I'm sure he wouldn't have minded getting his hands on one.

Also, despite the retconning by Zahn and others that Thrawn's banishment to the Unknown Regions wasn't indicative of the Emperor's prejudice against him, remember we're talking about Palpatine here. He didn't have favorites; he had assets he used until he was done with them. I doubt he would have lavished heavy battleships onto some red-eyed freak who had the nerve to tell him he was wrong on an issue, even if Thrawn had proved to be too valuable to Force-zap into oblivion. Remember that according to the DESB Palpatine contemptuously left Thrawn to fail in his post-Endor campaign.

 

I thought it was just Zahn doing his best to make Thrawn into an underdog.

 

I'm just wondering what happened to the Praetor and Allegience class battleships. The duplex size star destroyers.

 

Black Sword Command is very pleased to learn about that.

And even Jerec got his own Super Star Destroyer just from 'corporate donations'.

 

Black Sword Command was in the Deep Core, which was pretty much the Empire's bomb shelter writ large with Byss and the other fortress worlds. As for the entire command dropping off the radar, Isard thought the fleet was lost in some sort of unspecified disaster at Cal-Seti in the post-Endor chaos. Thrawn was building his forces in the Unknown Regions up when the Emperor was still running the show.

As far as Jerec - note "corporate donations." He basically amassed a crapload of credits from corporations in return for not hitting them with Inquisitorius audits and was plotting to take over the Empire (in fact, post-Endor he had the scarns to run a three-way scam against the Emperor, the Pentastar Alignment, and the Prophets of the Dark Side). His ego and ambitions demanded an SSD. Thrawn would have little use for such excessive theatrics.

 

Whelm was awarded to Grand Admiral Teshik due to his command of the Sector Zero fleet guarding Coruscant.

Teshik would not be in charge of the Azure Hammer by the time they got the Whelm, as he would have been long sent off to get himself killed at Hapes right after Rebel privateers stole an Imperial advisor right from under his nose, which happened shortly after Yavin and per Far Orbit before any Super Star Destroyers where build.

[]an old Mandator [/i]

Not really as the Executor was the first Super Star Destroyer ever build, unless they start sticking the term on older ships after the Executor is done, there aren?t any finished before Vaders ship.

Grand Admiral Batch did have the Terror under his command, but he delegated her to Admiral Sarn.

He also got the Tarkin which I found way funnier that he didn?t keep that as flagship and Terror was clearly a special project group.

Grand Admiral Grunger did get his hands on the Aggressor
Yes apparently from Admiral Roek and by usurping it for private use whilst it was intended to guard Corellia by Isard / The Ruling council.

n general, remember that the Grand Admirals were as much political and bureaucratic leaders (post-WWII, the Nuremberg prosecutor referred to Germany's Grand Admiral Raeder as "the political admiral") as military leaders

That?s why there really was never any need good plot reason for them as Grand Moffs already have pretty much that function and actually got placed in charge of stuff like a planet destroying super weapon.

I'm just wondering what happened to the Praetor and Allegience class battleships. The duplex size star destroyers.

We dont actually know they there sizes or them being more powerful, though Allegiance itself might be as that ship is at least called a Super Star Destroyer (or an Imperial Star Destroyer as well in the Audio drama)

Black Sword Command is very pleased to learn about that.

The Intimidator was always a strange special case, as she was not actually completely finished when she was dispatched to Black Sword and the Black sword yards actually lacked the capacity to build ships like it. And though intention was 3 SuperStars, the other 2 having been finished was just guess work by the New Republic, as they never actually show up.


And even Jerec got his own Super Star Destroyer just from 'corporate donations'.

Yes interestingly enough by having a SSD under construction bought and modified. ^^

Though if you want to get into missing SuperStars, there is that whole thing with the Razors Kiss being build at Kuat without the Rebels actually being able to find out it was there until Zsinj tries to steal it and apparently missing the Eclipse that should have been under construction just a few shipyards away.

 

I was going to mention Lusankya spending most of her career buried under Coruscant without anybody being the wiser about it. If Palpatine can pull off that level of trickery, covertly building one Super Star Destroyer and shipping it off to the UR doesn't seem like that much of an effort.

EDIT: Carved out most of my post as there is a much more mundane explanation than Palpatine mind-tricking the planet on Wookiepedia.

 

I'd agree with you, except that Grand Admiral Teshik is said to have had command of the Whelm before he got sent off on his little death ride against the Hapan Royal Navy for failing to catch the Far Orbit and rescue Advisor Coh Veshiv. Far Orbit defected shortly after the destruction of Alderaan, while the Executor was not finally completed for another six months. As far as Gorefiend's assertion goes, we have references to him commanding the Whelm prior to his dismissal from Imperial Center Oversector. So odds are Whelm wasn't an Executor, and if that's struck the most prestigious candidate to serve as Azure Hammer's flagship is a Mandator, which could rightly be referred to as a Super Star Destroyer given the application of the term to the Allegiance and its sisters.

As far as Lusankya, Eclipse (which was known to the Rebellion, at least according to Empire at War: Forces of Corruption), and Razor's Kiss escaping notice by the Rebels/New Republic, remember that Thrawn's mission was a secret from even the higher levels of Imperial command such as his fellow Grand Admirals. The public story was that Thrawn stuck his foot where he shouldn't have in court politics, was lucky to escape execution for his overly ambitious behavior, and the rest of Imperial Command could point and laugh at the alien that was thrown into the Unknown Regions on a mapping mission. They might have gotten suspicious if they saw a couple Super Star Destroyers in construction - and the men required to crew them - go missing from the Order of Battle. Granted some of the older KDY heavies could have slipped away without much notice, but those were more likely sent to Byss. As I stated, I doubt the Emperor would have sent Thrawn SSDs and he hardly needed them for the job at hand.

 

Wookieepedia currently states that Teshik had command of the Whelm. I'm not sure if that was stated in the Insider article introducing Teshik, if it's a retcon from a later source such as the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, or if a fan put two and two together and ended up with eight

Then again, 1) "Rebellion Era" includes the period of Teshik's tenure (2 BBY-0 ABY), and 2) the Executor-class vessel Guardian was stationed near Coruscant before Admiral Drommel turned warlord and absconded with her, suggesting she may have replaced Whelm as the Azure Hammer flagship (technically she would have been Grand Admiral/Grand Moff Tigellinus's flagship in that instance, but we know Rufy was more concerned with sipping drinks in the Court while remembering to hold his pinky out).

 

Actually he didn?t per Starships of the Galaxy he had the ship hidden inside a fake giant planetary shield generator that was lowered on to the Coruscant, with the Lusi inside.

Whos is Who the Grand Admirals only mentions the SSD Aggressor and Terror. And only that Teshik was in charge of Core world defenses until that little FarOrbit mishap. Encyclopedia only mentions that he was in charge of the Azure Hammer until Yavin and that Whelm was the command ship of Azure Hammer (with no time frame, but as mentioned EX was the first SuperStar and all ^^). So no not really any indication that he was in command of the Whelm either. So yes looks like somone jumped to conclusions on the Wooki.

And getting the position of Grand Moff ^^ which I also found rather amusing as he was actually supposed to be more powerful then they at least rank wise. His Insider blip also mentions that he was actually way busier ruling stuff then protecting it.

 

IIRC this was debated more extensively in another thread, but while Grand Moffs were more about political administration of territory Grand Admirals were more like personal troubleshooters for the Emperor, with the capacity to just walk on and take over military assets. Their job was to increase Palpatine's direct control over the Imperial Navy. Thrawn, in addition to his role in the Unknown Regions, appeared to be Palpatine and Vader's hole card that they could pull out to deal with a particularly tricky situation such as Zekka Thyne or Grand Admiral Zaarin. Grand Admirals Tigellinus, Il-raz, and Pitta seem to have been selected more for their political influence on naval matters than any military genius, and with Grand Admiral Declann he was able to further his idea of a military totally in thrall to the dark side.

 

Seriously, Wookieepedia? Pure fanon. The CSWE has nothing linking the two in either entry. Considering that was Dan Wallace's invention, and his work with Jason Fry, I'm guessing we'll hear more about the ship (plus Grand Admirals!) in the EGTW...

It's interesting to note that most of the Grand Admirals seemed to be using regular ships as their command ships (and of course, there's the old Marvel Comics plot where a number of Imperial Navy officers thought the Executor was a massive waste of resources).

 

Yeah, I know to take the Wook with a grain of salt. I think part of the reason I brought it up was that I recalled someone else making that point in another thread. Maybe EGTW will clarify the issue.

Probably because most Grand Admirals either had duties that did not require a large permanent flagship. Tigellinus, Il-Raz, and Pitta were largely political figures; Zaarin and Batch were primarily involved in research and development; and Thrawn was engaged in the Unknown Regions and on occasion hauled back as an odd-job man by Palpatine and Vader (during which he had several different flagships). Teshik and by inference Tigellinus were probably the only Grand Admirals who had a set sector of space they worked in; the rest woudl have preferred a smaller command ship that could easily be transferred between operational theaters.

 

There's also the fact that the SSD isn't exactly a tremendously GOOD idea for a battle ship. Darth Vader certainly made excellent use of the Executor and I'm sure, as a command ship, that it's extremely effective but what exactly DOES IT DO? You know, other than look impressive. Luke Skywalker stole the plans for the original Executor at Fondor during the Dark Horse comics period and the Rebellion had the best strategy for smashing them to pieces ever since.

I mean, the track record of SSDs is not terribly good.