PT Qui-Gon Jinn should have been replaced solely by Obi-Wan?

A criticism I see consistently for TPM is that Qui-Gon shouldn't have held the main focus of the film and instead Obi-Wan should have discovered Anakin himself.

Do you agree with this notion? Personally, I love the character and Liam Neeson in the role. To me he's the role model of what most Jedi should be. Although I do very much love Obi-Wan too, I admired Qui-Gon for staying out of the council's politics. Unfortunately Obi-Wan wasn't able to do the same by ROTS.

Even by ROTS i still remembered Qui-Gon, so I think that's a testament of his character being several notches above the other Jedi protagonists.

What are your thoughts?

 

I love Qui-Gon's role in the story.

Essentially, he acts like Ben Kenobi did in ANH, teaching Anakin the ways of the force, and spiriting him off Tatooine.

He even dies!

But the main difference, is that Ben could still help Luke as a Force Ghost.

For Anakin, he was passed on to Obi-Wan, as a burden, which no doubt caused some resent in him. It's the first step on Anakin's dark path.

 

Why should OBi-Wan take Qui-Gonn's role? Just because Return of the Jedi suggested that Obi-Wan was the one who found Anakin?

Qui-Gonn is a really good character who adds a lot of charisma and warmth to the movie, creates a unique master-apprentice relationship (while showing significant differences between him and Obi-Wan) and becomes a father figure for Anakin, whose death will affect his future trainning.

 

No. It was never stated or implied that Obi-Wan found/discovered Anakin. What Obi-Wan said was:

"When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot."

Not only that, we got a great new character with Qui-Gon.

 

I dont necessarily think Qui-Gon shouldn't have existed. I feel like he has importance. But I feel like he could have been a dissenting voice on the Jedi Council and still been Obi-Wan's former master, without making him quite so active in the story.

As is, Obi-Wan is not keen to go along with his Master's unilateral decisions. He wants to side with the Council against the idea of training Anakin. He refers to Anakin as a pathetic life form. He gets stuck with Anakin because of a promise he made to Qui-Gon.

Then in AOTC we get an ever so brief glimpse at Anakin and Obi-Wan getting along. Then it turns into Anakin feeling overly criticized and held back. Obi-Wan describing Anakin as arrogant and warning Anakin about expulsion.

Then in ROTS we see them briefly as partners before it again slides into mistrust.

A lot of the times that they could have been shown as "brothers" gets glossed over. And in the OT, Obi-Wan seems to be humbled by his own arrogance that he thought he could be as good of a teacher as Yoda, when we learn that he didn't even want to train Anakin.

I feel like they needed to establish Obi-Wan as caring and sympathetic to Anakin while simultaneously arrogant. I feel like he should have been a Knight already, that finds Anakin wants to train him. Brings him before the Council. Gets denied, but Qui-Gon is sympathetic. Qui-Gon could then have assisted his old apprentice in the third act and still been killed by Maul. But I feel like everything up to the arrival on Coruscant should have been Obi-Wan playing the role that Qui-Gon was given.

IMO, he should have discovered Anakin, realized his potential, desired to train him, been denied, went behind Yoda's back anyway and got approved after Anakin saves the day and Qui-Gon dies. Then in AOTC, I feel like they should have been mutually respectful up until Shmi died, then I feel like Anakin could have harbored a grudge for not being allowed to rescue his mom earlier.

Then have things gradually fall apart as Anakin seeks out Palpatine as the one to confide in.

As is, I just thought there was nothing at all fun about the character dynamic between Obi-Wan and Anakin except for like 10 seconds in AOTC and maybe the opening sequence of ROTS.

TCW developed the characters in a way that I felt the PT should have from the start.

Though I also feel Dooku and Qui-Gon could have been combined.

 

No, because I think Qui-Gon is a brilliant character. He has a pretty big role in the story, one that can't just be replaced by Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon's death (and Obi-Wan being forced to teach Anakin) is one of the main reasons for Anakin's downfall.

Now, if you were asking if Obi-Wan should have been in TPM more on the other hand, I would've said yes.

 

Qui-gon was geat, but I am sympathetic to the notion that Obi-wan got short shrift in TPM. I think having him sit on his butt for the entire Tatooine sequence could have been rethought. For example, he could have gotten wind of Maul's arrival and been tracking him, only to catch up with him right as Qui-gon and Anakin get back. Or he simply could have gone with them and witnessed Anakin's deeds for himself. Shrug, it's fine the way it is, but I would have preferred a bit more Obi-wan.

 

I think that Qui-Gon's role in the story was a great way to show what could have been . . . not only for Anakin, but also the Jedi Order. Which makes it easy for me to view his death as doubly tragic. And since Obi-Wan in "A New Hope" never said that he was the one who had discovered Anakin, I do not see the problem of allowing Qui-Gon to be the one who had discovered Anakin.

 

Qui-Gon is my favorite character in TPM but he really had no business having the role he did. Obi-Wan should have had the lead role in "finding" Anakin. Yoda should have been Kenobi's Master, in my opinion.
However, Q-GJ is still a great character and I loved Neeson's performance.

"Proof" that Jinn doesn't belong is that he was added late in the game, script was revised to split Kenobi's role into these 2 characters. GLu was certainly free to expand / retcon as he desired, but the fact is that the OT's suggestion that Kenobi "found" Anakin is correct since that was still the idea in the very late 1990s even.

 

I'm generally ok with Qui-Gon,I just wished he and Obi-Wan switched placed on Tatooine. It even makes more sense if Qui-Gon stayed to protect the Queen while Obi-Wan went to get the stuff. This way, he would be the one to find Anakin and actually spend some time with him and Padme. They could have even switched back with Qui-Gon before the podrace. I do feel George got sidetracked with Qui-Gon and Jar Jar and as a result created some issues for AOTC.

 

I concur. I was shocked when I first saw his death in TPM. It truly hit me. Many have said that Qui-Gon would have been a more understanding mentor to Anakin than Obi-Wan, and perhaps Sidious would have had a more difficult task ahead of him. Qui-Gon was willing to take a big risk with Anakin. He was a very spiritual and philosophical warrior. Indeed, the Jedi should have been more accepting of individuality and needs as he was. Later, Obi-Wan and Yoda were willing to take risks as he did.

 

Qui-Gon was a good character but Obi-Wan should have done the heavy lifting.
How much interaction did Anakin and Obi-Wan even have in TPM? A minute? Waste of potential.
Then we jump 10 years into the future and both are completely different.
Maybe the words in the OT could be interpreted the way that it came to be in the PT but the way TPM was executed left a lot to be desired imo.

 

I keep reading these comments on why Obi-Wan should have served Qui-Gon's role. Yet, I have yet to come across anything convincing.

 

Personal preference I would guess.

 

While I would have liked it if Obi-Wan had more to do, I'm fine with Qui-Gon having the spotlight. I've grown to like the character more lately, Neeson did a pretty decent job IMO.

 

Qui-Gon was a great character. Had they changed his name to Obi-Wan, he would have been perfect.

Not only does he do everything Obi-Wan should have been doing (to tie it better to both AOTC/ROTS and the OT), but he also exhibits the traits the younger Obi-Wan was meant to have: he's cocky and reckless. We're instead left with a stiff, conservative Obi-Wan, which leaves no room for a character arc and straight jackets the otherwise impish McGregor to boot.

 

Liam Neeson carried that movie so no. Also, with the way Han and Tarkin were talking about the Force and the Jedi in OT it makes sense that if you want to show a period where the Jedi were in much better shape you'd have to go as far back chronologically as you can get away with while still featuring Anakin and Obi-Wan, which is what TPM did (even if they then had the Clone Wars not break out much later).

 

The way i see it is quigon shows us another side of the jedi, a side that is getting squeezed out by the more establishment-oriented jedi council in TPM and which goes away altogether in AOTC & ROTS. Anakin is a problem of himself of course, but by then Anakin was alone in his outlier feelings and as a developing Jedi had no one like Qui-gon-like to turn to, no one who wouldn't be so dismissive of his 'non-jedi' thoughts and would teach him to use his feelings to advantage rather than demise. The only person he had was Palpatine, who benefited greatly from Anakins isolation. I think Qui-gon highlights the councils weaknesses and makes us think of what could have been if he was still alive.

Also I found the paths Qui-qon and Dooku took very interesting. They both were evidently confident and independent people - Dooku never seemed conflicted in joining the dark side (in and of itself, he seemed to want to meet his goal and didnt care which side he had tp joon to do it) he seemed to know what he wanted and then did it - But one ended up on the dark side and the other stayed in the light. Thats an interesting contrast.

And i think only having kenobi would lessen the complexity of kenobis relationship with anakin. With quigons existance, kenobi was hestitant with anni just like the other jedi but only took him as his apprentice due to giving quigon his word and trusting in his masters judgment. This then created an underlying tension in kenobi and anakins relationship which was shown in the movies, giving more texture to their relationship. Ive read a lot that people wanted kenobi and anni to be best buds from the very start and for always, but that relationship sound too simplistic to me.

In short, quigons character gives more layers, weight, and scope to the things around him and those things wouldnt be as effective without him.

 

I kind of wish Lucas had given Obi-Wan a little more to do in TPM, maybe, but I'm fine with the film as-is. I think Qui-Gon was a really important and interesting character and I'm glad he was included.

I'll also echo what others have said in saying that I think it set up the very complicated dynamic that Obi-Wan and Anakin have which is a really important part of both of their stories. If it had just been "Obi-Wan finds this kid and decides to train him", it doesn't have quite the same depth, to me.

 

For me personally merging Obi-Wan’s and Qui-Gon’s characters would have made the characters and the story flatter, less complex and less interesting. Anakin and Obi-Wan obviously became good friends and came to care about each other a great deal, but it was never a perfect relationship. Anakin was not the perfect Padawan and Obi-Wan wasn’t the perfect Jedi master for Anakin. There was always a strain there from the beginning, and that’s what makes their relationship and their story so fascinating to me.

I also really love Qui-Gon as a character. He offers an interesting glimpse into what the Jedi could be. It’s also interesting to think about how Anakin’s life would have been different if Qui-Gon had lived and trained him. Somebody above put it really well imo when they said that Qui-Gon’s character shows what could have been.

 

I think that's why GL put Qui-Gon in TPM. To show what could've been had he trained Anakin. Qui-Gon related more to Anakin from the start.

 

Exactly! Although Obi was mostly a "straight arrow" in the councils code i think quigons (someone who obi trusted very much) insistence on anni and the prophecy influenced ObIwan in a self-fulfilling way as it made him want to believe it to be true, which is why he lets anni get away with things he shouldnt. Obi is far too lenient with anni. Also remember that quigon cut obis apprentice training short because of annis arrival, which makes you ask - was obiwan truly ready to detach from his master or was he rushed?

That obi and anni came to be such good friends yet both held qualities that were not nessescarily condusive to eachothers growth just made the downfall of their relationship and the effects of annis turn that more tragic

 

I think that he should be more showing, he appears for die that i don't care really much with him.

 

The problem isn't with the character himself (he was boring) but that it fractured the screen time for Anakin and Obi-Wan, which is far more important in the scope of the saga. Qui-Gon doesn't even play a role in the next films and his legacy doesn't affect Anakin.

 

Should have this, should have that. It's a fair criticism, yet completely fails to grasp the points Lucas was making in the PT, in my opinion.

Even, in a deeper sense, why he returned to make the prequels, at all.

Exactly. For my money, that's an excellent summary.

Good insight. Even vanished into twilight, Qui-Gon still exerts an influence -- of sorts -- on characters and events.

And how could he not? From another point of view, Anakin only becomes Darth Vader thanks to Qui-Gon's actions in TPM. The whole saga, in a way, can be chalked up to Qui-Gon. Jar Jar helping Palpatine acquire his powers? Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan choosing to train Anakin? Qui-Gon. Dooku's political idealism? Qui-Gon. Amidala's reckless leaps into danger? Qui-Gon.

His absence is profoundly felt in the second and third installments (all throughout the saga, arguably, until Luke takes up a green saber, acquiring insight in his final confrontation with Vader, and finally moving the psychological territory of the movies forward). Qui-Gon is something of a tuning fork for the madness unfolding; much like Jar Jar, the "pathetic lifeform", like Anakin, both of whom he took with him (despite protestations from his disapproving padawan) on his journey. The journey that ignites a saga.

It's not for nothing that Qui-Gon's funeral theme is reprised when Anakin is raised from the operating table and when the final fates of Padme and Anakin are shown at the close of ROTS/the PT. You'll note that Vader and the Emperor even share a shot that is eerily similar (in its basic composition) to Qui-Gon and Shmi looking out at Anakin while he works on his podracer. Vader has a Qui-Gon-esque posture, height, and build. Even his face plate recalls Qui-Gon's trimmed beard.

These aren't mine, but I'll offer you two (make that three) further insights.

The first is a quote from Dostoevsky's "The Idiot". Credit for this goes to TFN's bad radio who made a post featuring this quotation and linked it to Qui-Gon back in 2003:

"In scattering the seed, scattering your 'charity,' your kind deeds, you are giving away, in one form or another, part of your personality, and taking into yourself part of another; you are in mutual communion with one another, a little more attention and you will be rewarded with the knowledge of the most unexpected discoveries. You will come at last to look upon your work as a science; it will lay hold of all your life, and may fill up your whole life. On the other hand, all your thoughts, all the seeds scattered by you, perhaps forgotten by you, will grow up and take form. He who has received them from you will hand them on to another. And how can you tell what part you may have in the future determination of the destinies of humanity?"

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...ing-jedi-ghosts.12368448/page-2#post-12437285

(Note: post is truncated)


Then there is TFN's JimRaynor55 who wrote this about Qui-Gon in his compendious rebuttal of the RedLetterMedia TPM review:

No, Qui-Gon Jinn is most certainly not "stern." In fact he's the complete opposite, and can basically be summed up as an idealized father figure. Strong, brave, in control, but also kind and soft spoken. The type of man many people probably wished their dad would be like when they were kids. Qui-Gon is calm and patient when dealing with others, and he believes in the people he takes under his wing. He quickly saw Anakin's potential and believed that the boy would go on to do great things. His faith in Anakin was so strong that he trusted the boy to win the podrace and save the mission.

Qui-Gon's personality is frequently juxtaposed with Obi-Wan's. Despite his relatively small part in TPM, many of Obi-Wan's scenes were used to reinforce a consistent portrayal of his personality. And that personality is a bit more uptight and critical, in ironic contrast to his older mentor. Obi-Wan is focused on business, while his mentor has a soft spot for helping people that they encounter along the way. For example, Obi-Wan wanted to leave Jar Jar behind (with Gungans who would "punish" him) as soon as the Jedi acquired a needed submarine, stating "Master, we are short on time." Qui-Gon wouldn't have it though, and went out of his way to save the annoying and useless Jar Jar. This comes up again later in the movie. When Qui-Gon went back to pick up Anakin after winning the hyperdrive generator that they needed to fix their ship, Obi-Wan asked "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic life form?" The message is clear: Qui-Gon is compassionate, and is willing to take on additional burdens in order to help others.

Qui-Gon was also clearly portrayed as a free-minded maverick, while Obi-Wan was more conservative, by the book, and submissive toward authorities. This portrayal started as early as the movie's first few minutes, when the Jedi were waiting to begin their negotiations with the Trade Federation. Obi-Wan brings up an old lesson of Master Yoda's, to "be mindful of the future." Qui-Gon reminds his pupil that it shouldn't come "at the expense of the moment," and that Obi-Wan should "be mindful of the living Force." So right away we saw Obi-Wan rather simplistically falling back on a teacher's old lesson, which Qui-Gon knew the limits of. Sensing the future implies meditation and far off thinking, removed from the actual world in front of you ("the moment," or "the living Force"). Qui-Gon was shown as someone who saw things for what they were, while Obi-Wan and the other Jedi seemed distant in comparison.

Qui-Gon's differences with the rest of the Jedi Order didn't end there. Of all the Jedi, he was the only one who believed in Anakin (which goes back to his fundamental trait, which is his trusting nature) and wasn't deterred by the boy's age or natural feelings of fear and detachment, things which led the other Jedi to reject him right in accordance with their doctrines and traditions. Qui-Gon didn't care about the old doctrines though. He stood up for what he believed, and insisted on training Anakin. On the other hand, Obi-Wan said "Do not defy the Council Master, not again." He also tells his mentor "If you would just follow the code you would be on the Council," implying that Qui-Gon is an equal to his superiors on the Council, but that they have kept him down because he wouldn't follow along with what they've said. None of this swayed Qui-Gon, who answered "I shall do what I must."

Later in the movie, on Naboo, Obi-Wan eventually apologizes for questioning his mentor's judgment. Not because he thought that Qui-Gon was right, but because "it's not my place to disagree with you." Rather than rub it in or assert his authority, Qui-Gon simply smiled and praised his apprentice. That's...completely different from the way that Obi-Wan would handle his disputes with Anakin in AOTC. Remember Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and the Jedi Council's portrayals as described in this section. TPM laid a lot of groundwork, and all of this stuff cuts to the thematic core of the Star Wars saga.



This offers another sterling exegesis of Qui-Gon. It's by prequel scribe Paul McDonald. I won't quote it, but present it for you to read at your leisure:

http://thestarwarsheresies.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/qui-gon-jinn-jedi-knight-of-infinite.html


So, no, in answer to the question. I don't believe Qui-Gon should have been solely replaced by Obi-Wan. Not at all.

Why Qui-Gon features as he does, primarily in place of Obi-Wan, is for very specific thematic and story-based reasons.

Of course, it does put a bit of a kink in the trilogy and the saga generally, and that's the point.

One thing I like about TPM is that there are a series of ominous passings: the "Radiant" ship that is blown up at the start of the movie (beautifully named), Anakin leaving his mother, the political betrayal of Valorum by Palpatine, and yes, Qui-Gon's death.

This places AOTC in dutiful "catch-up" mode: but it's a duty that AOTC handles well. In fact, the whole movie manages to get a dialectic going between duty (honouring larger things than oneself) and desire (essentially satisfying the ego or the impatient self), right from its first scene.

By creating a clever dissonance, Lucas is able to artistically explore the implications of his choices made back in TPM, in AOTC, and explode them into Wagnerian opera in ROTS. But people are often too literal-minded about this. Because X doesn't literally appear, it can't possibly be motivating anything. Well, actually, it can: a crucial lesson delivered to Luke by the older Obi-Wan in ANH. "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." There is a "larger world" of myth and metaphor just beneath the surface. Consequences carry through.

I'll add that TPM is a prologue and honours convention while defying it at every turn. It's got something of an impertinent streak mixed with hidden surprises: not unlike its youthful protagonists. Qui-Gon may be conspicuously older, but he also takes on a mischievous, glinting quality on Tatooine (it starts to emerge shortly after he encounters Jar Jar). And this, to me, is much more fascinating to see in an older Jedi character, with some maverick tendencies (that seem ineluctably rooted to his mischievous side). Awesome character in an awesome story.