Qui-Gon's mistakes in his battle with Lord Maul...

Ok so when Qui-Gon and Obi-wan get separated in the fight, why not go back for Obi-Wan and get him to help him in the fight again. I mean shouldn't Qui-Gon know that Maul is more powerful than he is? When Obi-Wan get's kicked by Maul and lands on the platform, y wouldn't Qui-gon jump down for Obi-Wan so they could fight Maul together again? I can't see Darth Maul running away, he was very well trained and was very confident in his ability to take on two jedi at one time. Also when Qui-gon and obi- wan are separated by the red shields, y wouldn't Qui-Gon wait for Obi-Wan to come and re- join him? Maul would have no where to go at the end of the room where Obi- Wan eventually gets forced push down by Maul..

Thoughts???????

 

I can see why QG did what he did.
He is the master Jedi, O-W was his apprentice at the time so of course he is going
to take the lead. QG has a trust in the force that IMO surpasses what others have.
If he is meant to prevail then he will, if not then he will not. I can see him
thinking that.
Also, what you're saying implies fear, a Jedi should have none and QG didn't.
If he sensed Maul's power and felt fearful of it even in the slightest (to make him
hang back and wait for O-W) then that would be giving into his emotions and possibly
lead to the darkside.
What you see as a mistake I see as what a Jedi who trusts in the force would do.
He fought without fear and let the chips fall where the force intends them to.

 

Like you stated, you couldn't see Darth Maul running away...I can't either. If Qui-Gon were to jump down to help his padawan; I think Maul would be right behind him, literally. If Qui-Gon turns his attention to helping/aiding Obi-Wan, how would he defend himself against Maul. Darth Maul is not going to wait, pause or go to a neutral corner while QG is preoccupied. I'd think he'd take advantage of QG's attention being elsewhere and strike him down much easier. Just my 2 cent thought.

 

I think Qui-Gon was trying to lure Maul away from Obi-Wan after their initial exchange, probably fearing that Maul would be too much for him. Qui-Gon presses the offensive against him, because playing defense against Darth Maul is a very bad idea.

 

Don't look back.

Qui-Gon let the living force guide him in the fight. The end of the chapter in the book was nigh and Qui-gon wanted to get to the end. Destiny's were being forged. He didn't know the result - bacause the result was fluid, but he listened to that little voice that said, "Keep going."

He had Maul on the back foot, and had he waited for Obi-wan he would've lost the high ground. The red shield doors changed all that. Those doors were the Jedi's bane, because the two jedi worked so well as a unit.

 

Interesting, Maul would not run away but his master would, sidious seemed to fight more like a coward, a trait Maul didnt have.... for being an evil bad guy Maul was brave and ready to fight to the death, which he did.

 

True, Darth Maul likes to fight, but Darth Sidious likes to win. A classic folly of youth!

 

Dooku also advises Grievous to run away if things weren't going well...Its not so much fighting like a coward, as it is hit and run tactics. If you know you are outmatched, and have lost the advantage, retreating is strategy, not necessarily cowardice. He who runs away, lives to fight again some other day...Yoda runs from Sidious, lives, and ends up being alive to train Luke, who is responsible for the destruction of the Sith. If Yoda had stayed and fought, he might have died, which would have guarenteed Sidious wins, forever. By using his brains, Yoda helps to ensure Sidious's downfall 25 years later...staying in a fight when you are outmatched is sometimes bravery, and sometimes its just stupidity.

Personally, I think Qui Gon should have waited for Obi-Wan. Against an opponent you know next to nothing about, two would have been better than one.

 

Qui-gon chose to push the advantage while he could. He trusted Obi-wan to catch up to him. And he believed whole heartedly that he could hold out long enough, so that this could happen. Qui-gon was totally in the Living Force, as pointed out. He was fighting and not concerned with his own self. Even despite the fact that he knows that he is going past his prime and that it took a lot out of him the first time they fought. All that mattered was stopping Maul.

 

I was surprised reading Maul's backstory that he was made out to be a "failure" or at the very least took alot of motivation for him to actually become as good as he was in Phantom. Sidious supposedly left Maul on a planet for failing him (or something like that, if you know the story do correct me) and when Sidious came back the thing that caught his attention was that after Sidious had taken Maul down a level or two and told him he wasn't worthy to be his apprentice Maul showed anger and a desire to kill his Master.

In a way I think Qui-Gon underestimated Maul's motivations, his anger and determination. Darth Maul for what it was worth (not much as I've read that Palpatine really didn't care much for him) actually defeated Qui-Gon as another way to prove himself. I don't know if Qui-Gon's heart was completely in destroying Maul and in turn provided motivation for Obi-Wan to destroy him.

 

If you think about Sidious tried to run away from Yoda in RotS than you are right.Sidious did tried to run away because he realized that Yoda was more powerful than him.Sidious did not expect to see Yoda alive.I mean, his plan was complete: Jedi have been defeated, he becamed a Emperor, he had Anakin where he wanted him and suddenly a most powerful Jedi Master enters in his chamber to defeat him.This one duel could destroy all he built and he decided that it would be the best for him to escape.But remember that it is lightsaber duel we are talking about in this thread and Sidious tried to escape before his lightsaber duel with Yoda even begun.It was cowardish, but maybe the best choice.

As for Maul, he did not tried to run away.He just tried to separate Qui-Gon from Obi-Wan and he did it, wich leaded to his victory against Qui-Gon.

 

I don't get the past his prime point as the three possibly four most powerful Jedi/Sith are past their sixties - Mace, Yoda, Sideous and Dooku - with Yoda being close to 900. Qui-Gon was actually forcing Maul to retreat and had the upper-hand. Had the ray-shields not interfered who knows how the duel would have turned out - but he made a fatal mistake, and that cost him his life. If he was trying to protect OBW by fighting Maul alone he was not as wise as people make him out to be. Yoda protected Luke by resigning his fight with Sideous because of the danger of being killed. QG should have sensed that too...

As for Sideous being coward - I think he just had a different tactic than Maul... He saw fighting as the last solution and acted accordingly!

 

Qui Gon only made one mistake, he used Amidala to draw Maul out.

Once Maul went to confront the Jedi, there was nothing Qui-Gon coud have done differently. Living Force or not... Maul was going to kill them both... and should have. There was no denying Maul was better than both Jedi, he just wasn't smart enough to kill both of them. (But that does not belong here)
Back on topic;

There is cut dialogue that may shed a different light on my POV.

INT. THEED - PALACE - THRONE ROOM - DAY
NUTE, RUNE, DARTH MAUL, OOM-9, and a hologram of DARTH SIDIOUS walk through the throne room.

Darth Sidious
...she is more foolish than I thought.


Nute
We are sending all available troops to meet this
army of hers assembling near the swamp.
It appears to be made up of primitives.
We do not expect much resistance.


OOM-9
I am increasing security at
all Naboo detention camps.


Darth Maul
I feel there is more to this, My Master.
The two Jedi may be using the
Queen for their own purposes.


Darth Sidious
The Jedi cannot become involved.
They can only protect the Queen.
Even Qui-Gon Jinn will not break that covenant...
This will work to our advantage...


Nute
I have your approval to
porceed, then, My Lord.


Darth Sidious
Proceed. Wipe them out...
all of them.



...and not much later...

INT. THEED - PALACE - THRONE ROOM - DAY
NUTE, RUNE, and FOUR COUNCIL MEMBERS watch the plaza battle on a large viewscreen.

Nute
I thought the battle was going to
take place far from here...
this is too close!


Rune
What's going on?


Darth Maul enters the throne room.


Darth Maul
I told you there was more to this...
the Jedi are involved.

And here's a good one,from the TPM Insider's GuideCD:

Darth Maul confers with his master after the Queen has left Coruscant in the revised rough draft. Sidious orders Maul to follow the Queen to Naboo and "finish it." He also warns, "If you can't destroy the Jedi, avoid them." The self-confident Maul replies, "I have no doubt now that I am stronger than the Jedi. They will be destroyed."
***

Combine that with what Sidious said to him on the balcony, and throw in the experience gained from his first encounter with Jinn on Tattoine and Maul knew he would win. In the EU it is explained that Sith's true power resides in their will. Darth Maul waited his whole Sith life to openly confront the Jedi. Qui Gon spent his lifetime being indoctrinated to believe that the Sith did not exist.(Extinct for a milenia)

Qui Gon was beaten the minute he ignited his saber.

 

Also when Qui-gon and obi- wan are separated by the red shields, y wouldn't Qui-Gon wait for Obi-Wan to come and re- join him? Maul would have no where to go at the end of the room where Obi- Wan eventually gets forced push down by Maul..

I think Qui-Gon should have waited. Maul was trapped like a rat in that dead end room.

 

I hear you. That whole scene of Sidious trying to get away from his office after Yoda hurls him across the room always struck me as a bit strange. Originally, I thought Sidious felt he couldn't win a duel vs Yoda so he tried to run. Now I know that wasn't the case. Another poster reminded me of Dooku's words to GG in the Clone Wars series.

 

Excellent point, I'd forgotten about the Dooku/Grievous training.

 

Two of them use the dark side to enhance their abilities. Yoda uses the Force to compensate for his height, but after each strenuous (sp) use, he is exhausted. Note how he looks tired after each fight. Mace managed to avoid a long, drawn out fight unlike Qui-gon. Mace also used a style that channeled his agression in somewhat positive manner. Qui-gon did not draw on the Force in such a way, other than to keep up with Maul. This is why he was worn out.

Who said that Maul was reteating? For all we know he was letting Qui-gon burn himself out. Qui-gon was not protecting Obi-wan as he knows the boy is capable of fighting, based on their past experiences. He was trusting that Obi-wan will catch up.

Let's see, he stood over Yoda gloating. Get's tossed once and makes a run for it. That's a bit cowardly if you ask me.

One problem. Sidious has the Force and Grievous didn't. Grievous used intimidation to fight. Sidious just used the Force.

 

One problem. Sidious has the Force and Grievous didn't. Grievous used intimidation to fight. Sidious just used the Force. [/quote]

Good point Sinister.Dooku knew that Grievous would face Force users in battle and because he didn't had the Force Dooku knew that some Jedi would overpower him by using the Force.Four lightsabers maybe works against some Jedi padawan or knight or maybe even some unexperienced Master, but Dooku knew that he would face some elite Master (like Windu or Obi-Wan) who will defeat him.Lightsaber skill just wasn't enough.Sidious was very powerful Force user and lightsaber duelist, but if you wan't explanation why he run away, in my opinion, just read my previous post.

 

Maul does what one should do when faced with greater numbers. He separates them, then leads one away from the other to finish them. Everyone likes to point out that Maul fought two Jedi. But he only fought them both for the early part of the fight. And what does Maul do even then? He knocks one away, then gives ground while the other follows. Maul lead them into the large chamber, he was not pushed. He knocked Obi Wan off the ledge, then gave ground and lead Qui Gon down the tunnel to the smaller chamber.

Qui Gon's mistake was following Maul. He did not have to follow him. He could have followed slowly, he could have stayed right where he was. But what Qui Gon thought was "pressing the advantage" was him actually falling into a trap. Perhaps not a well thought out trap, Maul did not appear to know about the forceields, and he may not have had it all planned out ahead of time. But he lead Qui Gon on after separating him from Obi Wan.

Note that there is symbology here as well. Earlier Qui Gon explains to young Anakin that all life and the midichlorians are symbiotes, and one without the other cannot survive. The Rule of Two for the Sith, one master and one apprentice for the Jedi, the Jedi and the Republic, these are all symbols of symbiotic relationships throughout the PT. Maul conjures up this symbol by cutting one off from the other, and one does not survive. The other does survive, and goes on to form another symbiosis with Anakin.

But anyway, it is a basic tactic that you do not try to fight two people at once, you break them up and move around to break the fight down into a series of one-on-one fights until you can remove one from the fight. This is what Maul does, and Qui Gon falls for it. He should never have followed Maul.
With the Force involved it makes Qui Gon's mistake evn worse. He would not have to look over his shoulder to see where Obi Wan was. It's not like he was on the other sid eof the galaxy, he was right there behind him on a ledge below.

 

And the dark-side makes you have greater stamina? Where do you get that from? Why wouldn't QG use the force to enhance his stamina as Yoda or Mace did. Mace also fought in the arena in AOTC if you remember...

For all we know they may have had a puppet show going! But what the movie shows is that QG pushes Maul back. We see that QG is on the offensive after he kicks Maul - he then tries to take advantage over that. What happens when the ray-shields is ignited is beyond me. Perhaps he realized that he was too agressive...

Is it cowardly to acknowledge that you might lose and die? To live to fight another day is better than dying. When Sideous had nothing to lose by fleeing his fight with Yoda it was only good tactics... Also, maybe he just experienced that Yoda was very very powerful - nothing like a knock in the head for a wake up call...

 

Regarding Yoda/Sidious:

"Now you will experience the full power of the dark side..."

Sidious hurls lightning at Yoda...and I think Sidious thought it was over...he thought Yoda was down for the count, hence the reason he starts walking towards Yoda, ready to finish him off.

I dont think Sidious expected Yoda to get up, never mind Force-push him back into his chair. When that happended Sidious realised that he ahd underestimated Yoda and tried to escape, thinking that oda was more powerful and resiliant than he realised.

I also don't think Sidious was prepared for a battle. Remember he thinks that Yoda was killed during Order 66, whereas Yoda, having survived has probably been preparing himself for the battle.

 

[/b]Let's see, he stood over Yoda gloating. Get's tossed once and makes a run for it. That's a bit cowardly if you ask me. [/b]

Actually from the movie, we dont know for sure if he is making a run for it. He could have been going to the door to manually lock it so Yoda couldnt escape.

But yeah, I think Palps was going for help. All thru the prequels, Palps always had a backup plan. Yodas visit caught him off guard. He should have had Padme's magic red button on his desk to summon help.

 

Because Dooku fights like a young man, while Obi-wan's powers were weak and he didn't fight the same way as in his youth. Much less like Dooku.

Qui-gon used the Force, but he is not as strong as Mace. Mace was stronger than Qui-gon, which is why he lasted longer in battle. Mace also used his agression, whereas Qui-gon and most other Jedi do not.

Note what VadersLaMent said. Maul gave ground to lure Qui-gon in.

To run from a fight that you don't need to, shows that Palpatine doesn't have the guts to stand and fight until forced to.

 

Hmmm, up until the shield incident that stopped the battle, I think Maul had total control. To make the fight easier for himself, he needed to separate the two warriors so he could have a one-on-one with either of them. Looking at the situation, he probably wanted to dispatch with whom he percieved as the weaker opponent so he could focus on the master. By knocking Obi-wan off, he was able to take the battle elsewhere, heading back knowing Qui-gon would continue onward. Keeping with his "keep your mind in the here and now" mantra, Qui-gon had to continue with the battle wherever it took him, and Maul capitalized on that. By stepping back, he increased the distance between the Jedi while occupying the master.

 

Rossa83 posted:
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And the dark-side makes you have greater stamina? Where do you get that from?
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Well, stalker ... are you ready for some football?
I'll kick off, with this overview, that I pieced together from the OS and Wiki:

The dark side of the Force, called Bogan by the ancient forerunners of the Jedi, was the primary tool of the Sith Lords. Unlike the light side of the Force, its power came from raw negative or strong emotions.

Throughout galactic history, the most infamous users of the dark side were the assorted iterations of the Sith, who were also the most powerful, with a bevy of talents impossible for Jedi to duplicate.

"Beware of anger, fear, aggression. The Dark Side are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."
?Yoda

The dark side of the Force was the element aligned with the powerful negative emotions of fear, hatred, and anger; practitioners fueled their power through these passionate emotions. While the light side jedi drew on meditation and peace to gain power, those who drew on the dark side gained power by using strong emotions. Additionally, death and pain are associated with the dark side of the Force; inflicting them appears to be a primary goal of many dark side users, and using their own pain to gain power was usual.

The Jedi Order feared the dark side of the Force. Because it was the power of the Sith who they also feared, anything that could be related to it was abolished. The dark side was extremely addictive, and almost impossible to renounce. Every time a person in tune with the Force called on the dark side, they became more and more addicted to the power it brought them. The path of the dark side is mentally and sometimes physically corruptive.

"The dark side offers power for power's sake. You must crave it. Covet it. You must seek power above all else, with no reservation or hesitation."
?Revan's Sith holocron

Dark Jedi and Sith were capable of furthering their abilities more quickly than Jedi, and there came a belief that the dark side was more powerful than the light. It is only easier to use though, but the lure of power convinced many, like Anakin Skywalker, to succumb to it. Jedi who were able to properly use the light side of the Force were just as powerful as their Sith counterparts, but the Sith believed that they were more powerful than the Jedi were, and sometimes the Jedi believed it too.

***

Dark Lord stated that a Sith's real power resided in their will, so Rossa, IMO if you combine that with their complete lack of a moral compass... then a Sith would appear stronger. The Jedi had to mindful of collateral damage, but that doesn't necessarily make them weaker...