Lit Reading or Re-Reading The Dark Nest trilogy by Troy Denning

Hi,

since the last Dark Nest Trilogy thread is from 2014 and there is so much new material to compare and relate this trilogy to, I want to open a new thread in order to invite and welcome all new and old readers of The Dark Nest by Troy Denning.

I for myself started to read The Dark Nest trilogy last week and in The Joiner King (TJK) I found some striking similarities to the sequel trilogy, in particular to The Last Jedi.

But at first something else in the prologue of The Joiner King:

Why has Troy Denning to frighten me like this seeing Jaina being interrogated by an Inquisitor and that after Rebels? It took a while till I realized that those inquisitors in TDN are a far tamer kind than in Rebels.

Of course they do. That is the continuation of Ch. 44 of The Unifying Force, the last volume of New Jedi Order series, where Talon Karrde made this remarkable remark about military men:

And that’s why Fives did not pay for his drink in TCW s. 6 in The Clone Bar as well, I guess.


And here, with ch. 11, we come straight to The Last Jedi, just the start, where Poe did insult General Hux, do you remember?

Raynar Thul here reacted much better than General Hux in TJL. And now the looming question: Is Qi’ra from the Solo-movie Raynar’s mother?

And now, in ch. 14, we are straight in the climax of The Last Jedi.

Uhm, I really miss Mara in the ST now asking “How about the decoy, Skywalker?” And in Ep. VIII there is no Ben to ask about his father “What’s wrong with Dad?”. And neither there is a Han anymore to ask “Did you just tele-?”

Is it a wonder Luke wanted to die in the end? I find it striking that this takes place almost the same time in the EU (35 ABY), when Luke does such in TLJ (34 ABY). Is the respecting passage written the same style in the novelization of The Last Jedi?

 

This is somewhat on topic.

But I love Grand Master Skywalker from Legends. He’s powerful, compassionate, wise, ruthless when he has to be, and a worthy successor to the title of Jedi Grand Master.

If I had to trust my life to any Jedi in the Galaxy, it would be him.

Don’t get me started in Legends Master Skywalker.

Luke Skywalker is everything his father should have been. A mighty Jedi whose power and wisdom as unrivalled.

 

I find Luke rather too ruthless too often. But I still think he is TRYING to do good, even if he is going about in what I think are bad ways.

He is making this all up as he goes along so he gets slack.

 

Raynar’s mother is Aryn Dro. Han meets her in The Paradise Snare. He goes to a bar on Alderaan where she performs on stage and then goes up to talk to her afterward. She’s with her boyfriend, Bornan Thul. Han gets the sense she’s interested in him, especially after he mentions he’s a pilot and got into a scrap with some pirates. Bornan picks up on this too, and Han is almost convinced to try to get with Aryn specifically to spite Bornan, who he thinks is a snobby upper class jerk, but decides not to as it might turn into a fight and attract attention - which Han doesn’t want, as the cops are already suspicious of him and nearly caught him trying to sell 100 vials of glitterstim (he failed because there’s no market for hard drugs on Alderaan).


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Man, I haven’t thought about Dark Nest in ages. I’ve been curious about rereading some of these books now that the ST is done, especially since they take place around the same time period.

One thing I noticed thinking about it just now: The ST also has a threat from the Unknown Regions, led by a scarred Force-user, whose attendants are humanoid insect aliens. Oh, and said group is capable of creating superweapons. Okay, that last bit touches more on FOTJ’s Killik history. But still, if you squint a bit, you could see the First Order as what would’ve happened if the Killiks had conquered the Imperial Remnant and had started to regain some of their ancestral memories.

 

I still like how Dark Nest's books and story are structured like a psychology deepdive not everyone got upon first read. There is so much symbolism and metaphor despite being literal inuniverse people and actions. Despite all the Denning critique of some fans, these books try to be much more than just a book trilogy which gives them kinda a different feel if you read them like that. There are way more Joiner Kings and Unseen Queens role-wise than the obvious ones and a lot of doubling up on character relations and roles mirroring each other. It's like the entire book structure, psychological as it is, is written like the entire trilogy is one brain, one mind and we witness its thought processes and neurological subsystems and psychological parts interacting with each other. Not just subconscious and conscious but way more if you know your stuff around these things.

In that regard, it'd be Mortis-esque metaphorical if the entire trilogy just took place in someone's head, based on actual events and people. As if the characters are not the real people but how a certain character whose mind we are in sees them, which might be why they look so cartoonish or over-caricaturized at times with a childish Jedi Council, superpowered-Luke and other stereotypical roles.

Of course, after this mind-dive deep into someone's mindpalace, LOTF may be reread with a different set of eyes maybe.

 

It does a lot in deception and how things aren't what they seem or how we remember them.

While it is exaggerated, with the Killiks, peoples memories aren't as strong as people like to think.

 

I've always thought the Dark Nest Trilogy to be underrated.
This is actually what first got me into the post ROTJ EU.
I absolutely love the sub-plot of Luke discovering what happened to his parents, R2's recordings and his reaction to them are very emotional for me, excellently done.

 

That R2-scene would be a heavy bait for people who hadn't seen the films.

I have read TJK until ch. 20 now and here are my remarks about some things happening in the Prologue until ch. 11:

Prologue:
That call in the Force is also a very important theme in Vector Prime, the initial volume of New Jedi Order.

A totally cool answer of Jacen in the style of Luke. While I was really wondering why Jacen didn't find the light inside himself. Did I dream all that in NJO about his visions and good deeds or was that just about force balance?

Ch. 1:
Denon as the new galactic capital? Why did the capital not stay at Mon Cala, until Coruscant is up to it again? Or is it fashion now to change the location of the capital like the Jedi Order is moving from Coruscant over Yavin IV to Ossus?

Ch. 2:
Ben is switching off the Nanna droid. Is that the same Nanna droid we have in Crimson Empire III? The description is all the same like the pics in the comic.

So Ben emerges into a little Palpatine, hiding himself from the force. Hair and eyes are also quite the same.
LIZIL - And here I realized that Killiks prefere palindromes.

Ch. 4:
Would you ever have gotten, what the Killiks danced on Lizil? Maybe Leia solved it because the Killik's movements were like the movements of the droids in the Ch'hala trees in the senate building what Thrawn used for his espionage.

Ch. 5:
Luke and Mara let Ben play with children of many other species to get to be acquainted with the wider galaxy. Like Plagueis' mom did with her son. But I guess Mara didn't keep a diary about it.

Fangface: I thought that name is reserved for Onimi. Well, at Lizil he would have been in his element. Would Killik's telepacy work also on Yuuzhan Vong? And the Aqualish can talk in Basic. Does Han not wonder about this? Actually their throats can't form that sounds like with Gamorreans. In NJO it is explained that Piggy had some special gadgets to can speak Basic. Here it is left without an explanation.

Luke and the two Ishi Tib:

That is such a funny mirroring scene of that one in Chalmun's Spaceport Cantina at Tatooine with Dr. Cornelius Evazan and Ponda Baba in Ep. IV. But in the outcome, Luke doesn't like this either.

Ch. 6:

That must be from a time, when there was a Corona plague amongst smugglers in the GFFA.

Ch. 7:
You feel clearly here, how the Force Net among the Jedi during the battle-meld on Myrkr was a kind of preparation for the Dark Nest trilogy.

Ch. 11:
And while Jacen is looking for his light and his forlorn comrades from Myrkr, Han nails the problem of the whole issue and the trilogy as well:

Ben & Han:

I think, I do understand too. And how this other Ben in Ep. VII clung to Han!

 

This was set up in the end of TUF, with Denon being mentioned as the new capital in the end.

 

Ch. 12:
The Killik mosaics

I imagine these mosaics to be just like those 3D-images, where you have to squint eyes and to change their focus that they look parallel instead of crossing. I could never do this because I have different eyes.


Ch. 13
So Tahiri and Jacen do believe the Chiss are planning genocide on the Taat-nest. Would not be the first time, but what I can count in favor of the Chiss is, that Outbound Flight did happen one year later in publishing.

And the Chiss have gravity projectors as I know them from TTT, not those mobile metalweb gadgets they stole from the Vagaari.

I like the way Raynar Thul is talking - he pretends it all to be not the way it seems. And here comes the return.

I really wonder what would have happened when priest Harrar would accompany that mission.

"Raynar Thul - I'm the one who is guilty." Harrar raises his two hands which, just like Raynar's, were three-fingered only. "Sorry for trying to sacrifice you - nice scars btw."

Raynar reminds me on a mixture of Barrison Draay and Haazen in the KOTOR-comic Vindication. A Jedi born into a noble family but not very much liked, then being scarred and going dark in the end, weaving clandestine plans to take it all over, with some following Jedi.


Ch. 14
The smuggler code, freshly invented by Han Solo. Will give Troy Denning us all the points in the end?

Ch. 15
Tahiri's hands go over Han's back.

I was also nauseated. Prank or not - was that necessary, Troy?

That's exactly why Raynar needed some rest on Yoggoy too.

Oookaaay. Surely that's a way to explain the Yuuzhan Vong in NJO. There must be a reason the Yuuzhan Vong didn't molest Killik nests in the end.

Ch. 19.

Taken Alema reminds me on Aayla Secura under the spellbound of the Anzati Jedi Volfe Karkko.

 

There are so many big and small things, which made me laugh or being astounded in TJK

Ch. 20

I do the same way with Chai Latte because that Rio brands are too sweet and soso for my taste. But Leia – junior Senator in the Old Republic? Not even infant Senator! But I really like how the shades of motions are passing and crossing between those two beneath words and movements.

Ch. 22

Han Solo seems to be obsessed by that imagination of bug-lovers or bug-huggers. If his vision will come true? Alas, I think Jaina and Raynar just made some anti-infectious CoronaFizz greeting to avoid an infection.

I like that chase though the nebula and how Troy describes it – with Leia’s priceless face:

These are newborn stars, right? This is really something I would like to see on screen, but, hey, we have at least the Solo-film.

Ch. 23
And here Jacen and Tenel Ka become a couple. How comes it that her bodyguards to all miss some limbs? Is that the punishment for failed suitors, to serve in her guard like this?

In NJO we learnt that the Force has a will and now Troy Denning is telling us, what the will of the Force exactly is … not pretty much as I see.

Ch. 26

Vergere would have answered Formbi: “Aren’t civilizations always dangerous? It depends for whom.”

Of course.

Absorbed.
Nas Choka would say. "We Yuuzhan Vong like circumlocutions."
The Empire of the Hand was the mass of the lands Thrawn did discover and conquer in his heydays, right? Now it is assumingly absorbed – by the Chiss or by Pellaeon’s Remnant? Actually I didn’t get also that Jagged Fel in NJO on one hand was serving the Chiss and on the other hand Pellaeon. So many hands! I always thought the Ascendancy and the Remnant were two different empires. And sometimes they seem to be one.

Anyway: The games on the Jedi Academy are a perfect mirror about Formbi’s visit and the politics they are discussing.

Ch. 28

I really like how Denning is turning an initially harmless situation like Mara’s inquiry about the vanished gelmeat into a situation of death or life, aggrandizing it step by step.

And Killiks can survive a lightsaber stab into the tube? Impressive! How comes, the Jedi kill later at Kr so many of them like flies?

 

Well more fuel to the fire of my Tahiriina Kwaadveila is already a darksider (and Vongerella via Ooglith Masquer Suit) before Dark Nest theory... at this point she'd take any male Solo.

Hey Han got experience with hippie-cults on drugs rubbing each other. The Crispin novels show him on Ylesia with such cults the Hutts cousins, the t'landa Til use for spice production and refinery covered up as a religious retreat!

"making a Fizz" seems to become the new trend

The limb issue is explained at some point as her suitors cutting off their limbs deliberately to appeal to Tenel Ka. Stupid morons... I mean she is a hapan trendsetter with hairstyle, dresscode and all but this is ridicolously going too far.

The Force will / no will issue got its own topic on TFN... but to each Forceusers the Force appears different. A river is common as analogue, but also other energetic or otherwise aspects are known and High Republic is promised to show unique views of unique Jedi in that regard.

The Empire of the Hand or the Hand of the Empire... two faces of the same coin? Another Life of Brian situation with Chiss and Remnant playing the galaxy for a fool by being one but pretending to be either or whenever it suits them?

The Empire of the Hand secretly merging with the Ascendancy and Remnant always struck me as a perfect setup to outplay the New Republic and influence the Galactic Alliance to the point of subversion. Hadn't Sith and Darksiders meddled with it to the point the Remnant pulled out of the GA, the GA would have become the next Empire. Even after the first Sith meddling and loosing Pellaeon, they tried again by elevating Daala as Chief of State. But after that and Abeloth they just didn't try anymore.

 

A promise or a threat?

ch. 21
Troy Denning's brain work for Cilghal here is amazing.

ch. 31

But still strong enough to control Jaina and Zekk.

That other brother of hers must be Ben from the ST sometimes.

ch. 32

Now I do shrug. Artoo was already around at Naboo with Anakin Skywalker. And Ep. I was already on screen 1999, while Dark Nest came 2005. Was Naboo an Empire? Or did Bail Organa forge something, when the little droid was in his possession?

ch. 36

Actually I thought that frozen beads from Luke's suit will lead them their way back - or the others to find them - like in the fairytale Hänsel and Gretel. But dead chitin carcasses will do it as well of course.

ch. 39
This chapter is for all Darth Maul fans. Then now we know that Darth Maul's sojourn at Tatooine in Rebels was not without any deep impact on young Luke Skywalker nearby.

See here Luke's dialoge with Alema Rar:

Such Maul said to Kenobi in "Revenge" the last episode of TCW, s. 4.

The same Darth Maul told Obi-Wan Kenobi in "Twin Suns", that Rebels episode where he met his demise.

Like Darth Maul in Son of Dathomir, pt. II Count Dooku captured with Aayla Secura before turning to Mace Windu.

 

And here is the last part of my review for The Joiner King

Ch. 41:

Han’s sarcasm is priceless, while I’m not sure on whom this sarcasm is more directed actually.

That’s interesting. I have to check SbS and Traitor if Jacen has a vision there about Raynar in this regard.

Han, the little Prince. Zekk and Jaina meanwhile are like Tick, Trick and Track in the Donald Duck Comics. Did you ever spot that the three little nephews of Donald many times say things together in the way, that one is beginning a sentence, the next one is proceeding it and the third one is ending it?

Welk in this book was very weakly drawn. Already in SbS he appeared as a mere follower of Lomi Plo and here he isn’t uttering a single word – just like Luuke Skywalker as Joruus C’baoth’s apprentice in The Last Command. Welk and Luuke aren’t but silent assassins. This was the last chance to make more of Welk's character but it didn’t come. Same with Lowie. Tarfang at least is getting some personality but Lowbacca has the same doggishness Chewbacca had in all his film appearances. No character development, no own accents to the story, no introspective – we just see them from outside. When you compare that with the NJO, the enemy was much better shown, see Shedao Shai and Thrackan Sal-Solo, but I’m not finished with the trilogy yet.


The Unseen Queen

Ch. 1
Woteba is a strange name for a planet to be colonized by Killiks. Couldn’t Denning use such palindromes as usual like Wotow or Abeteba?

And here we have it again – the Corona greeting with rubbing forearms.

Ch. 2

I'm really disappointed about the Killik healers now. Aren't they able to fix Alema's shoulder and arm within a whole year? Not even with a killik claw surrogate like Welk had? Or is Alema now the dark Tenel Ka and had decided to leave it as it is?

I don't know who should be disappointed more, but maybe we didn't know Welk as much as we should. But anyway - Luke killed so many Killiks before at Kr, perhaps that BedaGorog was one of them.

And here Alema is hustling to sell Luke an abo for the Prequel Trilogy and TCW alike from Dark Nest Channel Plus.

Ch. 4
Not even Jacen’s meeting with his newborn daughter can be without assassin Killik swarms. And didn’t we all know already that too many beauty treatments, like in Ta’a Chume’s example, can lead to lethal consequences as well?

Yeah, Jacens ego is filling the whole palace right now. You feel clearly how this character is being prepared to become a really bad guy later.

Does Jacen now always have to kill somebody to get a new vision? I can tell you that I also had such vision-dreams - without killing somebody before.

Will Ta’a Chume survive? And where is Isolder? He already made a weak figure in the whole NJO series. And here I didn’t see him at all. And why we get the baby's name to know only in TSW?

Ch. 8

Perhaps it would had been much easier too to kill Kyp right then, when he was possessed by the ghost of Exar Kun, but Kyp’s argument with Jaina and Zekk as new leaders of the Colony does it as well. Kyp here is like Mace Windu in Dark Disciple proposing at the Jedi Council Count Dooku’s death .

Ch. 9

The Night Herald of the Gorog Nest - What is this title about anyway? It was never explained in the books until I did read so far.

Ch. 10
Blue Giant – Red Dwarf. And I learnt more about astronomy

Hmmm, teaching or gaslightening? TUQ goes a way for the Jedi demanding obedience and following I really feel disturbed about.

And I become very hungry.

 

"Ruthless" Luke in Legends is largely a Troy Denning creation. Personally I actually liked it because for most of Legends I was annoyed that Luke was not ruthless enough. He just wasn't pragmatic. I definitely get why a lot of the things Denning's Luke did rubs people the wrong way though.

 

Edit: Ch. 8
I meant Corran Horn's argument about Zekk and Jaina later in The Swarm War, not Kyp's.

 

I mean, I still haven't finished the NJO (So close, but I keep getting sidetracked.), but I always assumed "Ruthless Luke" was the inevitable consequence of the way the Jedi decided to go all pragmatist and "No light or dark" in this time period. Which I personally was never fond of since I thought it contradicted the films. The dark side is always a temptation, ROTS makes it out to be an addiction that makes you lose your mind. It's not something that can be used and abandoned with ease.

Granted I may have misread something since I still don't have all the context.

In any case I rather enjoy seeing the Jedi Order centralize throughout the DNT. It makes clear that the old Jedi Order did things the way they did for a reason, and they are rational reasons. We can't have Jedi contradicting each other, and going off to do their own thing all the time, that would just stir conflict in their ranks and make it easier for them to fall, and at very least fail at their mission of protecting the peace. We can quibble about how much of a hierarchy is needed, but there has to be leadership, and there has to be someone or something with enough final say to keep the Order... well ordered.

I REALLY like Luke's quote here, which I don't have the time to look up so i'll paraphrase: "Good people can look at all the same facts and still come to different conclusions."

 

I don't like it when he tricked people into dying for him, or how he is in FotJ.

I do like smart and cunning Luke, but also compassionate. A bit like how he was he Shadows of Midnor.

Have you read traitor?

That says "the dark side is inside you". If giving into you force makes you kill maybe the problem isn't in the force but in you.

It says "the dark side isn't out side temptation but internal temptation.

 

Yes I understand Vergere's opinion on it, I just don't agree. The dark side is built on anger, hatred, and passion that is fed by something far deeper than just internal factors. Based on the films and other sources that come from Lucas himself, those who fall to the dark side basically form split persona's that result in an all consuming selfishness that can often undermine the original intentions, no matter how noble, of the person who gives into it. This is how we get things like Vader killing Younglings and attacking Padme, Tyranus committing Xenocide, Vos actively aiding and abetting the separatists for a good portion of the war, and other things that are completely out of character for the good natured Jedi we know them to be normally. That is just my interpretation of the totality of the evidence in both the old and new EU.

 

I demand we also get a Dusk Herald.. to complete the set!

 

What about twilight herald? Sunset Herald?

Midday Herald?

I just woke and need coffee Herald?

It has addictive qualities, but you can't make people fall. Anakin fell because he wanted the power Palpatine promised. Vos was trying to find the second Sith. They got blinded by their goal and started thinking "the Ends justifies the means". Even Ulic feel into this trap, he already protected evil and sacrificed innocent people, before he was poisoned.

And also people can do really horrible things if they think they are 'the right thing' even in the really world.

Vergre ISN'T saying "Do what ever you want" she is saying "the real evil is inside you". Which I think is true. I am influenced by the RotS novel, which has that has a key point in it, but it is a view I prefer as it does not remove personal responsibility. You can't say "The darkside made me do it", no you made you do it. Only you. Evil is always a choice. Always.

 

I volunteer to be the Coffee-Break-Herald!