Saga Relationship between light/dark and cosmic/living Force?

As we all know, in the OT and further, the Force is divided into a light and a dark side. (Yes, I know they don't mention "light" specifically in the early movies.) In the PT and TCW, the balance between those two is tilted towards the dark side, but the balance is restored at the end of ROTJ. However, here we also learn of a second subdivision within the Force: the cosmic Force and the living Force.

What's the relationship between those two subdivisions? Are both the cosmic and the living Force subdivided into a light and dark side? Maybe only the living Force? Or is only the light side subdivided into a cosmic and a living Force with the dark side being its own thing? Or what?

What kind of data do we have to go on here? Meaning, what is stated in the movies, TV shows, expanded universe, that answers this question?

Sorry if this has been debated before.

 

The truth is, there is not a lot of said about the Living and the Cosmic (Unifying) Force in the movies. I admit I don't watch any of the TV shows nor do have I read any books, even the film novelizations, so my viewpoint is mainly on what is said in the films and sources such as Lucas interviews or maybe even Joseph Campbell viewpoints. So here are some quotes from the man himself regarding these two sides of the Force.

And here's some of the few actual quotes regarding the Living Force in the films:

There seems to be an interesting facet between these two entities. The Living Force has a connection to nature itself and all the living beings of the universe. It also stresses the present time. The Cosmic/Unifying Forces acts as a greater entity, one that is above all things and deals with destiny and the future. As such, we see Qui Gon stress the importance of the "here and now."

I also don't think it is a coincidence that he is the person presenting information to Anakin, as well as the audience, the nature of the midichlorians. The Living Force would seem to embody the concept of symbiosis. I was also recently made aware of a quote from Qui Gon in the Clone Wars cartoon.

My interpretation is that the side of the Force known as the Living Force encompasses the symbiosis of living beings of the universe and helps create this greater side of the Force, the Cosmic Force which holds itself as an almost conscious self that reigns above all creatures. The Cosmic side of the Force can only exist because of the Living Force and the symbiosis of living beings.

 

The living and cosmic Force, just like the light and dark sides, are referenced (directly and indirectly) in the movies. The light side was never named in the movies, yet we knew of its existence because the dark side was contrasted against it. By the same token, the living Force is contrasted with the (unmentioned) cosmic Force. I'd say the netherworld of the Force is byproduct realm that 'links' the two.

It's a two-way street. Life and the Force (both living and cosmic).

 

The Living Force feeds into the Cosmic Force.
The Whills feed off the Force.
Hm...

 

I think that’s a very big “depends” on whether they do go either way. Probably mostly depends on what Lucas actually plans on for the Whills. It’s asking the question of what exists if our body no longer is alive? Does consciousness still exist and in what form?

Hah! Now you’ve done it. I’ll have to go find Lucas’s quote on his plans for the Whills. Maybe you’ve proven Alexrd to be right.

 

Based on his statements and works, counsciousness and the life energy of the deceased transforms into the cosmic Force. What Qui-Gon learned (and taught Yoda and Obi-Wan) is how to retain one's consciousness after death and interact with the living through the living Force. So yes, it exists and is 'lost' (except for the handful of people who managed to learn how to retain it).

 

I'd say the Whills as the ones in control of the universe are intrinsically linked to the cosmic aspect of the Force.
As I understand it, the Living Force is the energy of life in it's purest, most intuitive form, while the Cosmic Force is its evolved, aware state where it connects all the dots, keeps track of everything and makes deliberate decisions. That's where the Whills come into play.
But the Whills also communicate back to us by way of the Living Force, through the midi-chlorians.

 

I find it interesting that in ANH Obi Wan tells Luke that the Force partially controls his actions.

 

We are "vehicles for the Whills to travel around in"!

 

So the Whills are like little Jawas and we are the Sandcrawlers.

 

Is this about Reylo?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Not that I know of.

 

Thanks @Alexrd for posting that.

I think that's spot on. I like using the analogy of the human body to detail this. All the cells in our body can be seen as individuals. If they all work independently of each other, then the body itself can't survive and dies. It's only when all our cells in our body work symbiotically that our body works in as a functional system. And because of these individual living beings work together, they create a greater being which is conscious and self-aware. This being is not perfect or omniscient, but has the ability to love, hurt, fear, and hate. This greater being, our own collective consciousness, has a will of its own, and yet we are also dependent on the will of the individual cells in our body. The body is able to speak to our consciousness through specialized cells called neurons. Not all the cells in our body have these abilities. And yet these neurons spread throughout the body in order to spread information and also give feedback to the greater consciousness. Symbiosis is considered the "light" or correct way of behaving because it allows the body to exist and function. The antithesis is to work against symbiosis. Lucas has described the Sith as cancers. A cancer is a cell that grows, spreads and consumes in a selfish fashion. They care not for the body itself and this selfishness will lead to the eventual destruction of the body and their ownselves. In this case the balance of this system is destroyed.

I believe this to be true as Lucas is a ardent follower of Joseph Campbell.

In this scenario the planet is a living and conscious organism because of symbiotic relationship of all the living beings on the planet. If not for this, then it would become a dead planet like Mars, as Lucas quotes above. I believe Lucas has taken the Gaia principle and used it to describe the universe itself. Therefore all living things in the universe have their own individual conscious spirit which I believe is the Whills. They in turn create a collective consciousness which has a will of its own which can be described as the Cosmic Force. The conduit for the energy of the Force through living creatures come from midichlorians. The Jedi (like the neurons of the body) are themselves conduits for who communicate with the Force and spread knowledge and instructs the will of the Force to other people who cannot communicate with the Force. And thus, the Force is the collective conscious spirit of the universe created by all living beings.

 

See, I would say that the collective consciousness created by all living beings would be the Living Force itself. I think the Cosmic Force is something apart, connected to the Living Force but also conceptually separate. I think biological life and consciousness ultimately originate from the Cosmic Force, which is the primal force of intelligence in the universe. Logically, I would suppose that the Living Force was created out of the Cosmic Force to continually draw from it and feed back into it, which is why the midi-chlorians were a necessary precursor to the development of life.

I find it interesting that Lucas identifies the Whills with the force only in a "general sense." I would agree that the Whills are intimately tied up somehow with the Cosmic Force (naturally, as the Cosmic Force seems to synonymous with the "will" of the Force), but I'm not necessarily convinced they are the Force in the purest sense. In gnostic terms, they strike me as perhaps being slightly lower-level emanations of a true, unitary monad. In other words, they're the pantheon of the Star Wars universe, representations springing from the Godhead in a way similar to a shaft of pure light split into different aspects by a prism. (The Force Priestesses embody this concept on smaller scale, as according to Dave Filoni they're simply different aspects of a single, ancient being which preserved its consciousness into death.)

I really do think we can gain some insight into Lucas's latter-day conception of the Whills by looking at Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. The plot of that film revolves around a higher race of "interdimensional beings" which dwell in the "space between spaces" and operate as a "hive mind," and which Lucas apparently linked with string theory (according to Spielberg in one of the behind-the-scenes featurettes). These "interdimensional beings", which can appear in our dimension as individuals, are also apparently just different aspects of one super-being. Upon leaving our dimension they apparently (I would surmise) return to one of the theorized microscopic dimensions hidden inside the three spatial ones we're familiar with--the space between spaces. The implications here relating to Lucas's microscopic Whills are, I think, obvious.

In his later years I think Lucas really wanted to move on from all the vague, mystical, New Age mumbo-jumbo and start to explore how weird and mysterious the universe can be from a scientific perspective. Proceeding from the assumption that "the Force" is supposed to represent something that actually exists in the reality we inhabit, and that Lucas's goal is to tickle the imagination and create a modern mythology for a planetary society informed by science, I find this a perfectly appropriate impulse. Lucas really was trying to do something pretty new and radical, at least for a mainstream audience. I feel a lot of people view "the Force" as a sort of quaint throwback or a fuzzy metaphor representing abstract concepts. But I think Lucas takes it seriously and believes it really, actually exists--that all the religions up to this point have been hopelessly ignorant and provincial and got the specific details wrong, but that there is some intelligent order to the universe that will ultimately give meaning to everything. I don't know if I agree, but I still find his meditations on the subject interesting and artistically potent.

 

I feel like we are agreeing and disagreeing at the same time. I see the Living Force as almost a subconscious entity, one that can react and survive at a very primal level, but not on a conscious level that is self aware or intelligent. And in that sense I agree that the Cosmic Force is the intelligent aspect, one that exerts its will but also listens to the will of its subconscious self. As to whether the Living Force created the Cosmic Force or vice versa, it becomes a bit of a chicken or egg question and probably depends on Lucas’s view of how divinity relates to nature.

Now I do think Campbell is being quite harsh, but the idea remains that one can see divinity as arising from nature, or you can see divinity as an entity above and separate from nature. I think that Lucas has actually compromised these two ideas and incorporated both into the Force.

I think it is without doubt that Lucas believes in his own fictional Force to a large extent as seen in this interview.

 

Given the quotes above id interpret the Living Force as something more or less substantial, material, and the Cosmic Force as something abstract.
Living Force is about Present, Cosmic Force is about Future. That goes in line with Yoda's/Qui-Gon's philosophies when they taught Obi-Wan/kid Anakin/Luke on Dagoba.
They were aware of the Cosmic Force, but taught that only "you" can choose your fate and alongside it they advised to trust the Living Force that helps "you" to harmonize yourself.
They also taught to not look into the future but to live now, so i think its another proof that Living Force is something that Jedi truly should rely on, and Cosmic Force is something forbidden, abstract, and truly Neutral, that you shouldn't rely on, but it would decide "your" fate if you'll try to.
Everytime the Jedi try (intentionally or not) to call for Cosmic Force (i think it was Anakin/Luke's visions) they let it take care of their fate.

 

I have the Force theme in my head as I read these posts.

 

"The Force itself breaks into two sides: the Living Force and a greater, Cosmic Force. The Living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, etc. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not."

--George Lucas, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999.

That's what the two sides of the Force as a whole is. Beyond that is the light and the dark of the Force.

The will of the Force. Or the instinct to use the Force by seeing things before they happen, but if emotion is not tempered, it will control them.

 

Well I'd say a big indication that the Living Force sprang from the Cosmic Force is in the Mortis Arc, where the Cosmic Force is represented by the Father and the Living Force is represented by his twin offspring, the light-embodying Daughter and the dark-embodying Son. I would say this also indicates the only the Living aspect of the Force has a light and a dark aspect, while the Cosmic Force has no alignment and simply serves to keep the Living Force balanced.

 

I also think that Cosmic Force has no Sides and is Truly Neutral. Anakin embraced the Dark Side and then turned back to Light was foretold by the Prophecy, and the Prophecy Imo is the manifestation of Cosmic Force. Its above the Dark and Light sides.

Living Force also has no sides, but since its something that connected with biology, it can be influenced by negative/positive emotions of living things.
I think when Force Sensitive creature (intelligent or not) is filled with negative emotions it influencing the midichlorians thus the Living Force in a negative way just as in our reality when we are angry we may even make ourselves sick or ill.
Thats what create the Dark Side of the Force. Its not some abstract thing like Cosmic Force, but Living Force reacted on our negative feelings.

But when the creature is stable and filled with positive emotion - it also make the Living Force in it stable and harmonized - this is the state of mind of the Jedi. Thats the Light Side.

I think thats the grand lesson George Lucas wanted to give us (i even remember him talking about it) - that Living Force and Cosmic Force exist but only WE can decide will we turn to the Dark Side (influencing the Living Force with negative emotions and suffering) and embrace our destiny (be taken by the decisive Cosmic Force trying to look into the future).

 

It would also explain why only the Son and Daughter transform into animals.

 

That was never really foretold. What was foretold was that the Chosen One, which is Anakin, would bring balance by destroying the Sith. There is no indication that he had to be a Sith Lord, nor was his destroying the Jedi necessary for it to occur. From all indications, it was the byproduct of bad choices that Anakin made.

The Living Force is life itself. Life creates it and makes it grow. There can be corruption in the Living Force, which are the results of something evil that exists in all life. The Sith created a sacrificial chamber on Mortis that was used to kill many Jedi and resulted in the place becoming a nexus of dark side energy. Something like that can be artificially created. Can it occur naturally? Possible. That might be what the hole on the beach, on Ach To was all about. Same with the tree cave on Dagobah.

But within everyone is the capacity for light and dark and it falls to the individual to decide what way the balance will go.

"What these films deal with is that we all have good and evil inside of us, and that we can choose which way we want the balance to go. Star Wars is made up of many themes, it's not just a single theme. One is our relationship to machines, which is fearful, but also benign, they are an extension of the human, not mean in themselves. The issue of friendship, your obligation to your fellow man, to other people who are around you. That you have control over your destiny, that you HAVE a destiny, that you have many paths to walk down, and you may have a great destiny if you decide not to walk down that path. Your life might be satisfying, if you wake up and listen to your inner feelings and realize what it is you have a particular talent for and what contributions you can make to society."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers interview, 1999.

 

I posted this already in a different thread, but I think this seems to be a better place for it: I always wondered about the "balance" argument and how it relates to the Light side and the Dark side. I don't think that when Jedi speak of "balance" they mean a balance between Dark and Light, rather I believe that it is meant as achieving balance between oneself and the Force as a whole: an analogy to the Jedi's relationship to the Force and the Dark Side in particular is trying to walk a tightrope while being surrounded by strong winds: Walking on the rope means you are in balance, following the Light Side; the winds are your personal needs, shortcomings, and emotions.

In this way, balance becomes a goal of the light side exclusively, which fits with the way that every dark sider in the stories seem to all reject the idea of creating balance and why the destruction of the Sith is a necessity to achieving balance. In the larger context of the Living and the Cosmic Force, balance would then mean that the Living Force flows harmoniously into Cosmic Force, rather than living beings attempting to fight against or to redirect the course of the Force, which is what the Dark Side is at it's core.

What do you folks think? Am I close to anything or gotten completely lost in the woods of a fictional world that doesn't actually have any real rules

 

The cosmic force is a wellspring of energy. Time is not a concept to it. The living force is life; people, animals, plants, single-celled organisms, etc.. When life dies, its energy returns to the wellspring of the cosmic force.
Life communicates with the cosmic force through the midi-chlorians, which are basically fictional, sentient organelles. All life has midi-chlorians, though some have higher cell concentrations than others, leading to higher potential, and possibly more innate potency.

 

First, it is about the balance between the light and the dark.

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars."

--George Lucas, Time Magazine Article 2002.

The balance within was a key component which Lucas pointed out in his interview in 1999.