[ROTS] Anakin's birth

From the little tale of Palpy about Darth Plagus the Wise, we learn that this Sith learned how to influence midichlorian to create life. Are we to assume Anakin was created by this Sith Lord?

 

This is already under discussion in this thread.

For the record, my view is "yes"...

 

Yep, ironic realy, the one who will bring the force back into balance and destroy the Sith, was created by a Sith.

 

Yes, I think so. In the first draft of the script, Lucas had Palps actually telling Anakin that he created him. But since Palps says that to cheat death (which is the same as creating new life) is a power only one has acheived, I guess Plageous did it.

This makes Anakin created of good (Shmi) and evil (Palageous) creating balance

 

One thing Lucas has been very consistent about it that balance does not mean equal parts good and evil. It means no evil.

 

i think Palps created him. He said that Plagus taught his apprentice everything he knew (assuming Palpatine is the apprentice) this would include the knowledge of how to create life. This is what I got from the scene before hearing what was written in The Making Of, like Palps was bragging.

 

You're assuming that Palpatine was being truthful. Why would he create life, unless it was only an experiment, when he already had an apprentice in Darth Maul. Unlike Dooku, Maul was not an apprentice he ever counted on replacing.

 

When do you think that Plageous died?

I was wondering if maybe when he was betrayed by Sidious he possibly created the one that would destroy Sidious.

Not sure I personally agree with that, but it crossed my mind

 

The Sith Recruiting Office is always open for business. Both Master and Apprentice always have it in the back of their mind that they will most likely confront each other for the top spot. Thus, the Master must have a replacement Apprentice in mind, and the Apprentice must have a future Apprentice in mind. We see several examples of this:

1) Sidious has been recruiting/training Anakin for almost 15 years prior to his actual turn. Then he has Anakin murder his current apprentice before his very eyes.

2) Dooku was certainly trying to confuse and baffle Obi-Wan when he revealed the identity of Sidious on Geonosis, but he also was throwing a line out there to see how strongly committed Obi-Wan was. I imagine that this is how the Sith recruiting pitch works. You have to be vague about it, for fear of giving yourself away. That way you can go either way with it, depending on the reaction of the recruit. If Obi-Wan had answered in a different manner, Dooku would have marked him off as someone to work on. A Sith recruit is not someone who is picked up in a second, it is a long and careful process. If Obi-Wan had been angry or confused, Dooku could have spent a long period of time turning him, then plotting to join with him to kill Sidious. So in effect, Dooku was only half-lying to him. Dooku certainly had his eye on the throne, too. And needed an Apprentice if he ever decided to take a shot at Sidious.

3) Vader is trying to recruit Luke to help him kill Palpatine. At the same time Palpatine is planning to face them off, and keep the stronger.

So we've seen lots of examples of the long and slow process of building a Sith Lord. I think it is completely reasonable to presume that Palpatine created Anakin with the thought that he'd be a good candidate for Sith-hood in 20 years or so. He would always want a good supply of future Apprentices at hand.

 

2) Dooku was certainly trying to confuse and baffle Obi-Wan when he revealed the identity of Sidious on Geonosis, but he also was throwing a line out there to see how strongly committed Obi-Wan was.

In addition to this, I also think that Dooku was sincere when he said that he wished Qui-Gon was still alive. I think Dooku thought that he would have had an easier time turning Qui-Gon so the two of them could take out Sidious together. (Of course, I agree with Obi-Wan: Qui-Gon Jinn would never have joined Dooku.)

 

Yes, I imagine in either case he would have made Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan believe the entire time that they were doing the right thing, never admitting that HE is Sith, until the moment where they'd actually murdered Palpatine. At that point it is too late, they've already turned like Anakin did, no going back.

 

Exactly. It's pretty intersting how Lucas has the Sith turn people by appealing to their noble instincts. You draw them in by making them think they're doing the right thing at first. Very crafty.

 

I really like Soothsayer's theory!
Plageuos creating Anakin for sensing Palpatine would kill him in his sleep one day. Since the future is always in motion, Darth Plageous didn't know when Palpatine would strike.
Thus he created Anakin making sure he would one day get his revenge on him.

 

I was wondering if maybe when he was betrayed by Sidious he possibly created the one that would destroy Sidious.

Not sure I personally agree with that, but it crossed my mind

Would be a nice poison pill. Especially if Plagueis really was more the philosophical type instead of the military takeover type. And if Anakin was truly created by a Sith, it reminds me a bit of Harry Potter: it was prophecied that a child born in July, to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort, would have the power to destroy him. Two children were born in that month, but Voldemort feared the one most like him: the one who was not a magical pure-blood. In his attempt to kill Harry, he made Harry, he chose Harry, as the personification of the prophecy, and gave Harry the very powers that could be used later to destroy him. Perhaps the Jedi prophecy wasn't true at all, but in creating attempting to deceive the Jedi by creating a false Chosen One, they created someone who, through his ultimate choices, became that Chosen One.

Now Palpatine isn't above offering a false carrot on a stick to Anakin to get what he wants. He offers him the power to stop death, but by the end, not only is Padme dead, but this is convenient for Palpatine: he doesn't have to prove that he has this power. He saved Anakin from death not through the Force, but through artificial, mechanical means. He could just as easily be using the power to create life as another carrot: make Anakin think he is somehow indebted to, and obligated to, the Sith. Of course if Palpatine wants to claim that either he or Plagueis is Anakin's father, it raises another question: How would either of them gain knowledge not only of Tattooine, but know that there was a slave woman named Shmi Skywalker, and pick her, sight unseen, to carry this life; and moreover, how would Palpatine recognize Skywalker later on as the life that he created?

 

As far as this whole debate goes I really just do not know what to think and that is what I like about it. one day I feel it was destiny (which comes up lots in Star Wars) other times I feel Anakin could have been created.

Something to think about and talk about for...well forever I guess

 

I think that a lot of people make very good arguments on this point. I have a take that is slightly different than anything I can remember being posted, so I'd like to throw it out there and see what you all think:

I think Palpy was telling the truth, AND that Anakin's birth was the will of the Force. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

Anakin does eventually kill Palpatine, meaning he does eventually destroy the Sith and fulfill the prophecy. I think we have to take it on faith that he was the only one who could have done this. So I think that's strong evidence that his birth was the will of the Force.

However, the Prophecy, as Yoda said, may have been misinterpreted, and is certainly not fulfilled in the way the Jedi expected. My thinking is that it was the will of the Force that permitted Plagueis to manipulate the Midis and facilitate Ani's birth. This fuels the argument that neither the Jedi nor the Sith had it right: The Jedi expected a Golden Boy (or Golden Girl, with apologies to Estelle Getty) to rise up, full of goodness, and wipe out evil in the galaxy. Plagueis thought he was creating the being that would destroy the Jedi (and it may have been part of Sith doctrine to expect such a figure, assuming there was a Sith interpretation or version of the same prophecy).

Hence, they were both wrong. The Sith thought that evil would win out, which in the end it didn't. But the Jedi were wrong, too--they'd had become arrogant and dogmatic, and it came back to haunt them. Because after all, what motivates Anakin to kill the Emperor at the end of ROTJ? His love for, and attachment to, his son--something the Jedi Code would have forbidden.

I like this theory because it exposes the arrogance of both Jedi and Sith. The Jedi simply assumed that they were all-knowing ("I do not think the Sith could have returned without our knowing"; Count Dooku couldn't have tried to have Padme killed because "It's not in his character" and he's "not a murderer".) and paid a huge price for that. The Sith (at least, Plagueis and Sidious) thought they could play God and create an all-powerful being, but this being winds up destroying them.

If I may, let me also weigh on the issue of the prophecy and balance. First, kudos to whoever pointed out that there is no mention of a "light side" in the films. This is a strong case that the "balance" referred to is not a balance between good and evil. There is also the clarification of the prophecy in ROTS that makes it clear that destroying the Sith is part of the restoration of balance. Whoever came up with the "Dark-side-as-cancer" theory has made a perfect analogy, I think. After all, a doctor doesn't seek a "balance" of half cancerous cells and half healthy cells in order to treat a patient, right? That would be ridiculous, and I think that interpreting the prophecy as some kind of numerical balance between Jedi and Sith is similarly off-base.

And just as an aside--if Plagueis crated Anakin, it means that Vader isn't just Frankenstein's Monster--he's also Rosemary's Baby!

 

Assuming that this is true, (and I think it is) ;this begs the question : ("What did Shimi Skywalker know and when did she know it?"). In TPM Shimi announces that her son Anakin had no father and was conceived directly with the midichlorians. IF either Darth Plagueis or Palpatine induced the midichorians to create life why did the Sith use Shimi Skywalker as the incubator for Anakin. Shimi knew about the midichorians conceiving Anakin. Did she also know about what role the Sith played in Anakin`s conception? Is it even possible that Shimi was used by the Sith against her will to conceive Anakin(if this is true it would be tantamount to rape),and that she was somewhat embarrassed by the way in which Anakin was conceived and that is why she never told the FULL story of Anakin`s conception to Qui-Gon and Obi-wan in TPM. Seems to me that Shimi took alot of secrets to her grave and that she may have had alot to hide. All of these questions would make great spinoffs for the EU.

 

Shmi didn't mention Midichlorians at all did she? I thought she said something along the lines of "I carried him, I gave birth to him. I can't explain what happened". I thought the Midichlorian aspect was Qui-Gon's take on things.

As for why Shmi? She wasn't on Tatooine when she was impregnated (Didn't Anakin say since he was three?). She could even have known Darth Plagueis(sp) under a pseudonym, but ended up there due to factors beyond her (or Darth's) control. But the fact remains, if it hadn't been for Anakin's accidental discovery, Tatooine would have been a perfect place to secretly raise a Force-sensitive child until he turns 13 and moody, and then turn him to the Dark Side. As things worked out, it slotted into place anyway. Destiny, anyone?

(But I've got to say I don't entirely buy the DP created Anakin case yet )

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Assuming that the Sith could create life, it is possible that they could create it but not control where or to whom, that was the will of the force, and it was left up to them to find it.....or in this case it(Anakin) came to them.

 

The way Palpatine recalls the tale of Darth Plaguis to Anakin, the moment when he looks at Anakin and speaks in a suggestive manner, of how Plaguis could manipulate the Midichlorians to create life, gives a pretty strong implication that the Sith had at least some hand in the creation of Anakin.