Shatterpoint rant...

OK!

I realize that some people might not see this as a constructive topic and I also understand that many fans like the novel I'm going to rant about, but I must say I wasn't too impressed with Shatterpoint. My main problem with this novel is...

Jedi Master Mace Windu is vastly underestimated in it.

Let's begin with how I came to this conclusion. Who is Mace Windu? Well, as we all know, he is the Jedi Master who is second only to Yoda within the Jedi Order as well as the only Senior Jedi Council Member apart from Yoda. To achieve such a lofty position, one would obviously have to have very impressive Jedi skills, as the position would be heavily contested. We are talking about one of the very most powerful and experienced Jedi of his time, and even the average Jedi is very powerful compared to most characters in the galaxy. Given this, it would seem that the only characters with the skill, power and experience to be his match (equal) or better in combat at the point in time (Clone Wars) would be Sidious, Tyranus and Yoda (maybe Obi-Wan and Anakin would be fairly close, although they seem somewhat too inexperienced to be a match for real masters of the Force). If you are anyone else and face Mace in combat, you'd be wise to run for your life.
This is also the "golden age of the Jedi" (Lucas' own words), so being among the best among the Jedi Order at that point in time would truly make you one of the very most powerful characters in combat over all the movies.

However, in Shatterpoint, the image of Mace that comes across is something entirely different. On several occasions, Mace is less powerful there than a Padawan would be in other EU novels.
For starters, at the beginning of the book, Mace gets blaster stunned by an ordinary security officer of some sort. Yes, you read that right. A very high ranking Jedi Master got stunned and captured by a very low rank and insignificant character who isn't even given a name. If I were to write a Star Wars story, I wouldn't treat any fully trained Jedi like that, let alone a prominent one. It is ridiculous, stupid, and totally unworthy of a character like Mace.
In the middle of the book, a kid talking about Jango's death says that a Jedi stuck a lightsaber in Jango's back, that Jango was the best (in combat) and that there was no way a Jedi could have taken him in a fair fight. Mace basically agrees (inside his mind) that he can't dispute that Jango was the best in combat but insists that it hadn't happened that way. A more appropriate thing for Mace to think to himself might have been that the kid underestimated the power of the Force, and that while Jango was certainly among the best for non-Force users, a well trained Jedi Master was capable enough in combat to be able to take him out.
Last of all, at the end of the book, Mace has his lightsaber drawn and faces Kar Vastor, a physically strong Force user and leader among the Korun (Mace's people), who has a couple of lightsaber resistant (cortosis, I think it's called) shields, which he uses both as weapons and to parry attacks. Kar Vastor is described as "immensely more powerful" than Mace. It is described as a battle Mace couldn't win on his best day. I find it hard to buy that a Force user who has lived in the jungle all his life and lacks proper training in a real Force discipline would be "immensely more powerful" than one of the most prominent Jedi during their "golden age", or that Mace couldn't win such a duel.
Kar Vastor is described as half Mace's age and much physically stronger, which is certainly possible, but the question is how much that would matter given Mace's (to say the least) vastly superior training. If we look at duels between Force users in the movies, Jedi training has always been laid out as carrying far more weight than physical fitness. Just look at the duels between Dooku and Obi-Wan and between Dooku and Anakin at the end of Episode II. There is little doubt that eighty year old Count Dooku would be less physically fit than both Obi-Wan and Anakin, but he wins in both ca

 

I'm gonna agree with you on most of the things you said. Especially Mace shown as weak. But I didnt really enjoy the book.

 

Re: Stunned by militia

He was distracted and surprised, trying to save the life of another person, and wasn't even defending himself at the time, and had no reason to even consider defending himself at the time.

Re: Jango

Mace says at the begining that if he had killed Dooku at the arena, Jango would have killed him for sure. Simply, Jango Fett is a really, really good fighter. That's why he has millions of clones.

Re: Kar Vastor

What Kar lacks in training and refined skill, he makes up for with sheer brute strength, rage, and endurance. He has ultimate control of the jungle's power, feeds on it's energy etc. He had to survive for years in a jungle that kills sometimes in minutes and hours. Simply, if Mace fought him, Kar would simply outlast him, which is what happens during their fight.

 

I agree with some of your points but I think that there's actually a few that you are missing some of the subtext to.

1. Mace Windu is actually very humble in many ways about his skills. His tough guy attitude is largely an act. He respected Jango Fett as a warrior as well (surprising how many Jedi do really).

Mace won because he saw Jango's "Shatterpoint." Mace, a trained duelist, may have seen that as cheating somehow.

2. Kar Vastor is Mace Windu's cousin (possibly even brother) so he has the same force potential as Mace. Gnosh Windu is also a powerful force tradition on par with the Witches of Danthomir.

I wouldn't put it past Kar to have learned many things also from Deppa Bibli in his time with her as well.

But the source of his 'immense power' (which is only more than Mace's by a bit I think) is his devotion to the Dark Side of the Force. Kar, moreso than pretty much every Jedi we've seen save maybe Darth Maul and Sidious, is totally given over to the Dark Side.

It's also noteful in a fight that Kar has trained with Deppa while Mace has not fought Kar. Deppa as Mace's padawan had him teach Kar's his moves.

 

Jedi are usually weakened in certain novels - take Luke Skywalker for example; constantly undermined in the post-RotJ EU, and when he does manage to kick some ass in TUF, he almost gets killed.

However, superhumans do not a good story make. Sure, Superman and Spider-Man are both great characters in great stories, but both have a weakness. So too must the Jedi.

As cool as it might seem, you can't have Mace dashing around Haruun Kal killing Balawai left, right and centre, defeating Kar Vastor as soon as looking at him, and basically letting nothing stand in his way. It'll get boring. "Hey look, here come a hundred Akk Guards! Hey, Mace has ignited his lightsabre! Hey, they're all dead!"

Tension and drama all that. Where's the excitement if your character is great at everything?

Besides, Jedi are not infalliable, as proved often enough in the movies. Obi-Wan almost plummets to his death after performing a near-suicidal leap into the skies over Coruscant in AotC, gets beaten up by Jango Fett, gets blasted over Geonosis, is captured on Geonosis, is almost fed to an acklay, is surrounded by battle droids then has his ass handed to him on a plate by Dooku. And yet he's one of the greatest of all the Jedi.

 

You'd think the galaxy's greatest warrior and a force-sensetive warlord would be ENOUGH to challenge a Jedi on their own

 

I agree with Kwenn about how superhumans do not make good main characters, for they are no fun. Let us remember, however, what makes a Jedi great.

"Wars not make one great"
-Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

Many people seem to think that Mace Windu is the second greatest Jedi on the council because of his "power" with the force. However, they are forgetting that associating power with greatness is a dark side trait, which, even in the PT, the Jedi are not. They may be arrogant and unable to see the darkness that lies upon thier doorstep, but they were not dark themselves. Thus, they did not consider power as a measure of greatness.

Second, why do you assume because Kar Vastor had less training than Mace means that he is less powerful? He has brute strength, and a enoumous capacity to wield the force, and when he fuels it with his anger, he is nearly unstoppable. Mace beats him in the end not through direct combat, as he fought him earlier in the book, but by simply finding his shatterpoint and breaking.

And yes, I did love this book. It's my favorite Star Wars book.

 

How can anyone think Windu was UNDERpowered in that novel? He survived a lightsaber being shoved in his gut and out his back FFS!! He's flying around with his lightsaber chopping noses off assault craft, pulling ejection seat levers with the Force, and making missiles fly back to their attackers! Are you kidding me?

 

If we look at duels between Force users in the movies, Jedi training has always been laid out as carrying far more weight than physical fitness. Just look at the duels between Dooku and Obi-Wan and between Dooku and Anakin at the end of Episode II. There is little doubt that eighty year old Count Dooku would be less physically fit than both Obi-Wan and Anakin, but he wins in both case, due to superior Jedi training. That, my friends, is the weight Jedi training really has in the movies.

In RotJ, Luke Skywalker defeated Darth Vader. That Vader has more training and is presumbly the strongest Force user ever(GL's words) doesn't matter. Luke is hardly trained in any of the lightsaber technique,but this hardly matters either. I guess what I'm trying to say is that training isn't everything.

 

They sell Luke up a bit that he's equal to a powerful Form V user over only a few weeks' training.

 

They sell Luke up a bit that he's equal to a powerful Form V user over only a few weeks' training.

According to GL the Falcon took three months to get to Bespin and that's how long Luke's traning with Yoda lasted.

You thought he had a few quick weekends to get into gear?

And as for Jedi not being infallible, it's faults in a character that make them believeable. Shatterpoint made Mace a real character to me instead of the guy who gets a few lines in the movies.

If you want a superhuman, ask for a Mary Sue or Gary Stu. Or even better, ask for Superman. Not a Jedi.

 

The Falcon took 3 months to get to Bespin, you say? When did GL say this?

I've been hunting for a timeframe for a long time. That's been the nexus of much discussion.

Shatterpoint was just flashy lines and flashy Matrix fights. You weren't suppoosed to take it seriously. It was awesome---Windu insisting he nearly died in the Circus Horrificous arena . . . as if those Jedi have NO ability to leap out of it.

"Good thinking, 99," as Maxwell says from Get Smart

 

Wow 3 months, and he learned so much. Compare that to Vader's almost whole life of training and experience and you wonder how Luke won. Like I said, obviously training had little to no bearing on their encounter.

 

IMO, Shatterpoint is just plain ***p. It was all flashy, but it had no substance.

 

He was distracted and surprised, trying to save the life of another person, and wasn't even defending himself at the time, and had no reason to even consider defending himself at the time.
Jedi can see things before they happen. I believe that should give Mace warning a moment or two earlier that he was about to be shot, allowing him to make leaps or something.

Mace says at the begining that if he had killed Dooku at the arena, Jango would have killed him for sure. Simply, Jango Fett is a really, really good fighter. That's why he has millions of clones.
It wasn't that section of the novel I was referring to. It is possible that Mace could have sacrificed himself to get rid of Dooku in the manner mentioned there, although I wouldn't bet on it playing out that way. It is also possible that he could just have put his lightsaber through Jango's throat and then made a rapid move to kill Dooku, taking them both out without getting killed in turn.

What Kar lacks in training and refined skill, he makes up for with sheer brute strength, rage, and endurance. He has ultimate control of the jungle's power, feeds on it's energy etc. He had to survive for years in a jungle that kills sometimes in minutes and hours. Simply, if Mace fought him, Kar would simply outlast him, which is what happens during their fight.
My point in my initial post was, you can't make up for training with physical strength. Eighty year old Count Dooku could hold his own and win against Obi-Wan and Anakin, and those two still have a bit more sophisticated training than Kar Vastor. Physical strength only really matters when the training is on a fairly similar level, which is hard to say about Mace Windu and Kar Vastor.

Mace Windu is actually very humble in many ways about his skills. His tough guy attitude is largely an act. He respected Jango Fett as a warrior as well (surprising how many Jedi do really).
Fair enough.

Mace won because he saw Jango's "Shatterpoint." Mace, a trained duelist, may have seen that as cheating somehow.
Well, I read that, too, and frankly, that is Matthew Stover's take on the confrontation between Mace and Jango, and it doesn't truly matter. George Lucas didn't have Shatterpoint in mind when he wrote the script for Attack of the Clones (since Shatterpoint came later), which means George Lucas thought it very possible for someone like Mace to take out someone like Jango even without seeing Jango's "shatterpoint".

Kar Vastor is Mace Windu's cousin (possibly even brother) so he has the same force potential as Mace. Gnosh Windu is also a powerful force tradition on par with the Witches of Danthomir.

I wouldn't put it past Kar to have learned many things also from Deppa Bibli in his time with her as well.
Maybe, but I do believe the Jedi and the Sith to be by far the most advanced Force traditions in the galaxy. The others would be more primitive.

But the source of his 'immense power' (which is only more than Mace's by a bit I think) is his devotion to the Dark Side of the Force. Kar, moreso than pretty much every Jedi we've seen save maybe Darth Maul and Sidious, is totally given over to the Dark Side.
Maybe. I still doubt it would make him "immensely more powerful" given his disadvantage in training (Asajj Ventress gets beaten by Mace in a lightsaber duel in the Clone Wars comics, and she's on the dark side), but well...

It's also noteful in a fight that Kar has trained with Deppa while Mace has not fought Kar. Deppa as Mace's padawan had him teach Kar's his moves.
Even if, a few months of training do not equate with Mace's fifty years by any stretch.

Jedi are usually weakened in certain novels - take Luke Skywalker for example; constantly undermined in the post-RotJ EU, and when he does manage to kick some ass in TUF, he almost gets killed.

However, superhumans do not a good story make. Sure, Superman and Spider-Man are both great characters in great stories, but both have a weakness. So too must the Jedi.

 

"Wars not make one great"
-Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

Many people seem to think that Mace Windu is the second greatest Jedi on the council because of his "power" with the force. However, they are forgetting that associating power with greatness is a dark side trait, which, even in the PT, the Jedi are not. They may be arrogant and unable to see the darkness that lies upon thier doorstep, but they were not dark themselves. Thus, they did not consider power as a measure of greatness.
Actually, there is nothing that says associating power with and connection to the Force with greatness would be a dark side trait. A strong connection to the Force is what makes a great Jedi stand out from an average Jedi. One would think that someone who has practically the same rank within the Jedi Order as venerable Yoda would have something out of the ordinary, and strength in the Force is one of the first things that come into mind. Wars do not make a Jedi great, that is true, but the best Jedi are still the best in fights.
Furthermore, if you look at the Attack of the Clones commentary, Nick Gillard (the lightsaber choreograph) says, upon discussing the development Mace's lightsaber style, that Mace is second only to Yoda (implying that that would make him one of the very best Jedi when it comes to wielding a lightsaber). Nick Gillard is actually working on the movies, presumably in close cooperation with Lucas to realize the latter's vision. One would think that if that was contrary to Lucas' vision of Mace power and skill, Lucas would correct him.

Second, why do you assume because Kar Vastor had less training than Mace means that he is less powerful? He has brute strength, and a enoumous capacity to wield the force, and when he fuels it with his anger, he is nearly unstoppable. Mace beats him in the end not through direct combat, as he fought him earlier in the book, but by simply finding his shatterpoint and breaking.
I think it is rather obvious that less training means that you have less actual power. Not necessaraly less potential, but less capacity to use that potential to maximum advantage. I think the movies and EU alike are pretty unambiguous on this point. In Episode II, Anakin has less actual power in the Force than Count Dooku, despite having more potential (as the Chosen One).

How can anyone think Windu was UNDERpowered in that novel? He survived a lightsaber being shoved in his gut and out his back FFS!! He's flying around with his lightsaber chopping noses off assault craft, pulling ejection seat levers with the Force, and making missiles fly back to their attackers! Are you kidding me?
What exactly is the point of this post? I believe I already pointed out on which occasions he was underpowered. It was against other characters in duels, not in the circumstances you present here. Read my post and don't come and counter things I've never said!
I can't remember him having a lightsaber being shoved in his gut (it was a year and a half since I read the novel), but he'd have to survive it because he will be in Episode III.

In RotJ, Luke Skywalker defeated Darth Vader. That Vader has more training and is presumbly the strongest Force user ever(GL's words) doesn't matter. Luke is hardly trained in any of the lightsaber technique,but this hardly matters either. I guess what I'm trying to say is that training isn't everything.
No, at that point, Vader is no longer the "strongest Force user ever". Look at the DVD commentary for Return of the Jedi in the Emperor's throne room. George Lucas makes some very explicit comments about Vader's power. He explains why the Emperor is trying to goad Luke into killing Vader. The Emperor wants a new apprentice, because Vader "isn't nearly as good as he could be". Lucas explains that by the fact that Vader is in that suit and that he is therefore half machine.
And it makes perfect sense, too. Given how connection to the Force is something for living beings only, one would think that being filled with machine parts where real body

 

Shatterpoint the novel is seen through maces eyes despite his cockiness he?s simply very modest. jango was no match for mace with of without his jet pack. Kar Vaster was stronger in those surroundings if they were any were else in the galaxy mace would have whipped vasters arse as it was he fought vaster to a standstill before realising that he couldn?t win & surrendering. And later in the novel mace blast old vaster with his own vibro shield & arrest him. Don?t worry how mace is portrayed the book is out cannoned by GL himself so Mace could whip Jango & Vaster anytime cause GL said so.

 

Fokes, excellent thread. PERSONALLY, i say that Shatterpoint is the best star wars novel that i have read to date....or at least in the top three. there were clear moments in the book that actually allow you inside the head of a jedi master, whereas all other stories, movies and the like keep the mysticism alive, this one allows you to soak up a jedi master in full. i dont, however, believe that it made master windu look weak by any stretch of the imagination. it just makes the fall of the jedi that much more believable. one thing, jedi are not totally invincible....the issue of training versus raw force power is debatable, however, i venture to guess that a sith or dark jedi would probably be more likely to stoop to the levels of Kar Vastor in the jungle and meet him on his own level and terms. NOT TO SAY that the sith would necessarily win.....but here is something that was stated....it was noted that kar vastor had a force potential/power that was far superior to mace windu and in his own natural element, while not so much a dark person, his environment and surroundings, ala, survival of the fittest, and the environment was a hostile one by nature, allowed him to feed off of these dark (and i use the term loosely) impulses and made him that much stronger. while master windu was trained in jedi arts, it must be stated that there are means and ends that he simply wouldnt allow himself to stoop to. he was resolved to take the fight to vastor in his element, and used his superior intellect to gain his own ends.....case in point, at one point in the novel, werent they on a rock cliff where vastor was trying to get windu assassinated and windu simply nudged him off the edge of the cliff? where vastor had the clear edge in power, windu had the advantage in intellect. as for the shatterpoints, it isnt something that he can just call upon, from what i gathered...they sort of just present themselves at random intervals....hence he hadnt realized that killing dooku would have essentially stopped the clone war at its beginning....only later had he realized that. while it CAN be debated that windu seemed, SEEMED weak in the novel, there can be no question that for the most part, in keeping with his bio on SW.com, he manipulated most of what was going on and the ONLY "x" factor was Depa Billaba....in that he wasnt sure if the jungle had totally turned her.....other than that, he simply took the situations and directed them to his own means thruought the entire novel.

 

Yes, Mace was smart and cunning throughout the novel, but he wasn't quite as powerful as he has seemed elsewhere.

 

ok M_the_C.....that having been said, if you take into consideration that in his bio, it is stated that he would MUCH rather come to a diplomatic conclusion than enter combat.
as quoted from SW.com databank:
"Windu, a diplomat by nature, believed in the power of words over action. But as the galaxy found itself increasingly fragmented by the rise of a powerful secessionist movement, he grew to question some of his firmest held beliefs. "
i dont recall reading anywhere that he was one of the most powerful jedi, perhaps one of the wisest and most well rounded, but just because he holds such high office within the order, i think it is more of a testament to his wisdom and nature and his displays of calm and understanding of the force rather than his power within it. given all that you know of other jedi within the order

 

No, Lucas has Mace kill Jango because his rocket pack is destroyed. Somewhat less nobily.

I'd actually put Kar Vastor as more powerful than Ventress honestly, also a better fighter. Ventress is a thug and Kar is a warrior personally.

Anyone else have this impression?

 

i dont recall reading anywhere that he was one of the most powerful jedi, perhaps one of the wisest and most well rounded, but just because he holds such high office within the order, i think it is more of a testament to his wisdom and nature and his displays of calm and understanding of the force rather than his power within it. given all that you know of other jedi within the order
I don't recall reading anywhere that he was not, either, except maybe from fans who didn't like him as a character, and as I pointed out above, Nick Gillard really did think his position was relevant for how skilled he would be in combat.
Furthermore, if you read other EU sources, which would be on the same level of "canon" as Shatterpoint (whatever it would be), Mace actually is one of the most powerful Jedi, not just one of the wisest.

Furthermore, read the movie section of the entry for Mace Windu on starwars.com again and you'll find.

"Though Fett had proven himself deadly against other Jedi, he was no match against Windu."

Jango was "no match against" Mace. This seems to be something entirely different from the Shatterpoint take on the issue, where Mace was able to win merely because he found Jango's "shatterpoint".

No, Lucas has Mace kill Jango because his rocket pack is destroyed. Somewhat less nobily.
And that would be the "shatterpoint", then.
No matter how you put it, Jango really wasn't very successful when it came to making attacks against Mace that would land, whereas Mace had the power to make attacks that would land on him. He relied on his rocket to escape when the fight went badly, and it failed him.
If A is better at making attacks that would harm B than B is at making attacks that would harm A, isn't A a better fighter than B, then?

 

....dont you get the feeling that Windu's ability to see shatterpoints are a part of his power? i mean, i doube that fett was windu's equal, given windu's wisdom and experience, as well as his ability with the force. that having been said, i still believe that windu is one of the better overall jedi, i just fail to meet you where you believe that the novel Shatterpoint, makes him look weak at any point. NOW, while i was reading the book, i was hoping that he'd figure out a way to beat vastor in the force/hand-to-hand combat scene, BUT his was a battle to a greater end rather than just taking vastor out in the jungle......as you see, in the end, he just plain outsmarted vastor. they explained that while the lightsaber couldnt CUT those blades, it also stated that if held against them long enough, the sabre would eventually melt them.....sounds like a near stand still in terms of weaponry to me.....given vastor's raw force talent and youth, windu saw the shatterpoint in the battle as his wits against vastor's strength....aka, braun vs brains......he picked the battle, found his advantage, and used it.

 

I admit 'Shatterpoints' seem to be a very nice way of saying that Mace senses his opponent's weaknesses. It's the second rule of fighting that after learning defense that you look for your opponent's weaknesses.

Mace is being too humble.

And yes Kar Vastor would normally probably not be able to stand a chance against Mace Windu, I will point out though that I think it was Stover's intent to make Vastor just THAT good versus Mace being limited. He somewhat failed but if we want an in-universe explanation...

Mace might have been holding back against his padawan's torturer and his kinsman until he could figure out some way to break his hold over her.

The whole disabling thing just smacks of moving the scene along.

In Jango Fett's defense, Jango is one of the best warrior's in the galaxy and I'd put even odds on him vs. Kenobi in a fight to the death. Powerful is the force but not always its wielders able to channel it wisely. Mace would be able to defeat Jango normally but his loss was attributed to damage from the rhino-beast rather than the Jedi Councilman.

Not that Jango didn't put up a fight til the very end.

Mace is a better fighter by all accounts though.

I do agree with you though that the Force makes age irrelevant.