Should Lightsabers get the Strength bonus to damage?

My roommate and I were discussing this last night. We have come to the conclusion that a Jedi shouldn't get his Str bonus added to his damage rolls since the lighsaber's blade is purely energy. The only time that Strength would factor in would be in a "bind," when the 2 sabers are locked and opposing Strength checks should be made to break the bind (I draw this from my rudimentary knowledge of German swordfighting techinques). This is also the rationale that we use to argue that a short lightsaber (such as Yoda's) shouldn't deal less damage than a regular length saber. Since the blade is energy which can cut a person in half with ease, it doesn't matter how long or how big the blade is, it would still deal the same amount of damage. If you cut me in half with a short sabre or a long sabre, you've still cut me in half and I'm dead either way, the same sort of damage has been done to my internal organs, so why should one deal less damage than the other?

 

I agree. KE= (1/2)MV^2, and the velocity of the lightsaber is proportional to the the stength of the person swinging it. A lightsaber has very little mass, which really cut down on the amount of Kinetic Energy the blade has. In a sword, the KE is what drives the blade through something, but since a lightsaber can cut through anything it's kind of useless any way.

I hope that was somewhat right. It's been a while since i took a physics course.

 

sounds right to me too the only time i'd use the str bonus is, like you said, if they're in a bind

 

But objects still have resistance. It's not that 'lightsabres can cut through anything' it's that 'lightsabres can cut through anything given enough time.' It still takes a bit of effort to push through objects and if you're weak, you're going to have a more trouble than stronger people.

 

True, I think that strength may become a factor is the object that the saber is trying to cut through has a lot of resistance.

 

I say yes. Remember, the latest (or one thereof) Jedi COuncellings on the OS make it clear Jedi int he RPG are not the same as Jedi on film, for obvious reasons (i.e. that Jedi would be waaaay too powerful). Bearing that in mind, I certainly think the STR bonus should be added to damage. If the RPG lightsaber was to be compared to the films, you'd be much, much closer tot he damage the saber dealt in WEG. It's much more like the saber in KOTOR; and as such it's more... "RPG-like" to add STR bonus' to damage.

ES

 

My understanding of WEG rules is limited, but weren't the lightsabres there ridiculously more powerful than other weapons? A d20 lightsabre deals 3d8 in the hands of a Jedi Knight. That's only about a third more than a blaster pistol (less, actually). A D6 lightsabre would deal something like 11D in the hands of a Jedi Knight (assuming 6D in Control). A blaster could do 3D. On average, that means a D6 lightsabre will pull off 38 on average to a blaster's 10.5.

It supposedly all equals out because it would take a very long time to get any Force skill to 6D and that's at the expense of other skills. Given that movie Jedi are decent pilots, diplomats, spies, scholars, teachers, and warriors, D6 doesn't exactly fit the bill in the movie-like department any better than d20.

 

Well, the lightsaber obviously can't cut through everything instantly. (I have been watching the OT nonstop as my school got done with finals and I happened to have the OT in my backpack so we've been watching them for two days.)
And, they don't instantly cut through anything. Many blows just make small cuts in the enemies in the Sarlaac pit scene.
Plus the RPG system is based manly on "close hits" and your vitality is based on "quickness" and so if you could swing the saber faster, allowing for less of a chance to dodge you'd make your enemy use more energy or "vitality" to get out of its way.
Lightsabers do meet resistance be it an amphistaff or a blast door. So being able to swing it fast and harder would add some damage to the strike from the weapon.

But heck there's always "rule 0" ask GM.

 

I always thought the idea of "muscling" a lightsaber was wrong. As far as d20 goes I had a house rule that the Jed could substitute his dex for str when it came to damage bonus. I was saw Jedi and being quick and agile. Not slow and brutish. Also a lightsaber can cut through anything given enough time.

In my opinion however WEG does Star Wars the best. Especially Lightsabers and Force powers, a basic 5D lightsaber was devastating if you could wield it. Then add in the Lightsaber Combat power and the lightsaber became deadly.

 

Right they can cut through anything if given enough time. Strength just decreases the "time" if you will.
And you can be dexterious and fast and agile all at the same time.

 

Well, attacking objects was something I didn't think about. I would give them Str against a blast door or other object. It's just against "soft" targets that I think Str would be moot. Plus, since I'm about to start a Golden Age of the Sith era game, I figured I'd try to narrow the gap between lightsabres and Sith swords (they deal 2d6+Str, correct?). Admittedly, 2d6 sucks against 3d8 or 6d8 for the higher level Jedi, but you can roll a Force point and add the total to all of your damage rolls with a Sith sword. Admittedly, that's not that much better (especially since I suck at rolling d6's, I've rolled a 10d6 fireball and gotten 10 damage before).

 

Against human or normal opponents, I don't agree with adding a STR bonus at all... but against inanimate objects, I can see it.

 

Jade put it best. And as for Jedi being too powerful in RPGs (shortsabers doing equal damage and such), as DM I would have everyone roll a d20 or something, and the closest to a predetermined number would get to be a jedi character. If two people get the number, they can both be jedi (or force-sensitive). This way the game feels more real and the jedi are rightfully more powerful than the average non-force sensitive.

 

<<My understanding of WEG rules is limited, but weren't the lightsabres there ridiculously more powerful than other weapons?>>

No, the lightsabers in d20 are ridiculously LESS powerful than they should be. Screw game balance. I wanna play Star Wars. And don't give me the "then the Jedi will overshadow everyone else" line, have you SEEN the movies?

<<And as for Jedi being too powerful in RPGs (shortsabers doing equal damage and such), as DM I would have everyone roll a d20 or something, and the closest to a predetermined number would get to be a jedi character. If two people get the number, they can both be jedi (or force-sensitive). This way the game feels more real and the jedi are rightfully more powerful than the average non-force sensitive.>>

Yeah...because you're not capable of GMing a good game and balancing it yourself, we'll have everyone not get to play the kind of character they want. Not that your method fixes the problem, though.

If I were to lower myself to even considering playing WotCSW, Jedi would automatically receive Weapon Finesse (Lightsaber).

 

In WEG, a Lightsaber was a Very Difficult Weapon to use, and did 5D Damage - same as DL44. However, IIRC, you added Sense to your To Hit roll and Control to your Damage - meaning Luke was doing something like IIRC 15D Damage off 16D rolls.

E_S

 

well if u want to add your sense to your to hit roll and control to your damage, that's automatically -2D to all rolls, so it isn't easy. lightsaber combat as a skill is pretty much useless until you get over 3D in control and sense. weg had it right. if i got hit by a lightsaber i'd expect to find myself in at least two pieces.

 

The Force Power "Lightsaber Combat" let you add your control & sense to damage & attack rolls without the 2d penalty. Of course, you had to make control and sense rolls to activate the power, so if you didn't have time to prepare, the first round was at -2D, plus you're at -2D to do anything but lightsaber combat.

Base attack to hit with a lightsaber was 20. If you rolled less than a 10, you hit yourself.

Base attack to hit with a blaster was 5 for point blank range, 10 for someone more than 3 meters away, 15 for long range, 20 for very long range (~50 meters), 25 for extreme range, 30 for barely visible on the horizon.

Blasters do anywhere from 5d to 3d, depending on model. If you were willing to risk tech dice from modifications in Cracken's field guide, it was possible to get a blaster carbine with +2d to hit and +1d damage.

So, a souped-up blaster could do 6d to someone, and be a nearly automatic hit (if they were stupid enough not to be dodging) at close range. A good Blaster skill could shoot 4-5 times in a round, at the same target or many, with +2d to hit, and each hit doing 6d of damage.

The lightsaber was more of a guarentee to kill when it hit, but only works in close quarters, and is a lot harder to use.

WEG was balanced.

 

I've never made a claim that the WEG system was unbalanced, that I know of (in my earlier days as MethaneDealer, I may have, but that was quite a while back). Honestly, I've never had any experience with the WEG system, the whole bucket of dice syndrome sort of kept me away from that one. It's essentially one of the same arguments I get into with the 3.5 D&D groupies, d20 is easier to learn, yes, but 2nd Ed. (and probably WEG also) was more flexible and easier to tweak to the way you wanted it without ending up with vast problems later on. Everything is such a tangle of contingent rules in d20 that a slight modification here or there throws the whole system out of whack. The d20 groupies whine that 2nd Ed. was unbalanced and they claim that you can make adjustments to d20 without problems. 2nd Ed. was fairly well balanced (though mages were really screwed at low levels), it was just balanced a little differently than the way d20's balanced. 2nd Ed. had plenty of ways to customize your character starting at level 1, class kits were the way to go instead of these stupid prestige classes. By the time I can qualify for a prestige class that would do something similar to the old kit, I've ended up changing my mind regarding what I want the character to do, so the PrC becomes useless.

Sorry, off on a rant...

Back on topic, Jedi are fairly well balanced, in the manner d20 balances things. However, I always saw the Sith as being a little more evenly matched against Jedi in the movies and books. After all, if Jedi were so far superior to the Sith, then why were the Sith such a problem? After Darth Bane enacted the Rule of Two, the Jedi far outnumbered the Sith (admittedly, in that time, the Sith were in hiding mostly, so a standing fight never really occured). No, the Sith were just better in different areas than the Jedi, so the Jedi weren't able to beat them. Usually, in the movies, whenever it came down to a standing fight b/t Jedi and Sith, the Jedi won. But, the Sith were better at making sure that didn't happen, in later years. However, I started this thread to work out problems from the Sith Golden Age era, when the Sith weren't afraid to roam the galaxy openly. An openly warlike Sith would present more of a challenge in combat than someone of Palpatine's generation would, I think.

Of course, if anyone thinks that Jedi are so powerful that anyone who plays a different class is an idiot, then try to face down an equal level Tech Specialist with some time on his hands. There's the REAL power in the galaxy...

 

koohi... using lightsaber combat counts as two seperate actions, hence the penalty, and even if it isn't activated in the same round you still have the -2D penalty due to 'keeping up' the power. The Force power 'combat sense' pretty much negates this though, with it's +2D to defensive and offensive skills, and the bonus of being able to decide when you act in a round. Also, once combat sense is up, it's up for ten rounds, is that the confusion?

That's why LS Combat is pretty much useless before having 3D in Sense and Control

 

I learned the game with a mix of 1st & 2nd ed rules. LS combat was supposed to take care of the 2d penalty.

Since the required control roll is 15, and the required sense roll was 10, yes, lightsaber combat was useless until 3d of each.
But then again, a starting Jedi template has 1d control and 1d sense, and you have 7d to add to individual skills, so you could bump both up to the max of 3d, and have 3d to spend on other skills (like dodge!)

I liked the kits of 2nd ed, but even I eventually had to admit that 3 & 3.5 were much better (even though I'll never run one of those games).

 

you used those 7D to improve force skills huh? makes sense... as far as I know in the game i play in, if you want Force skills at character creation, the first dice in a skill costs an Attribute dice, thereafter it was skill dice (the 7D) or bonus dice, awarded for an in depth background to your character.

I haven't got my book on hand so i can't remember how it is in there

not saying im right you're wrong, etc, just interesting to get other players takes on it

 

Oh, for the disgustingly MinMax munchkin jedi, you put 4d in Dex & Str, 2d in the rest, 1d Control, 1D Sense. For your skill dice, you put 2d into Control, Sense, and Lighsaber(Dex skill), then 1d in Dodge.

With this combat nightmare character, non-combat aspects are both humorous (for everyone else--"Aren't you supposed to be a Jedi? Handle this."<snicker>) or frustrating (mainly for the player).

 

hahaha, there's a togorian in our group, his base mech is 1D. the ultimate min maxer, but its part of his character. I'm in the process of making a Force Sensitive Barabel character who was part of a circus troupe and played music (Omnibox, SW equivalent of drums) so I'm gonna be good with balance, stamina, willpower, animal handling, yet still have a naturally high dex. got a decent story worked out too.

 

We had a Bith pilot with 5d Mech who started with 7d piloting--got up to almost 9d. Of course, he had to fly by instruments because of his abythmal eye-sight.

Tagorians and Defels are fun combat beasts (literally).
I had fun with a Tarong socialite (think griffin with a LA-bimbo ADD personality). Try being 4 meters tall with wings and finding suitable beach-wear. Or even a comfortable chair on a starship.

Somehow, I think we're gettign off-topic though.