main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Should Teenage Nudist Summer Camps be Legal?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Jun 30, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    ACLU Challenges Nude Teen Camp Ban

    POSTED: 8:16 am EDT June 30, 2004

    RICHMOND, Va. -- A lawsuit filed Tuesday challenges a new state law that effectively bans nude summer camps for teenagers, saying it violates the constitutional right to privacy.

    The American Civil Liberties Union sued in federal court to keep the state from shutting down a no-clothing camp for juveniles in late July at the White Tail Park nudist camp in Ivor.

    The law was passed in March in response to a weeklong residential camp for 11- to 18-year-olds last June at White Tail. It was the first in Virginia and only the third such au naturel camp for juveniles in the nation, according to the American Association of Nude Recreation.

    "Legislators overreacted and in the process they substantially interfered with the right of families to make lifestyle choices," Virginia ACLU executive director Kent Willis said. "Using the overall logic of this law, legislators are now free to prevent children from swimming, playing baseball or riding a bus."

    The law, which takes effect Thursday, denies a state license to "any hotel, summer camp or campground ... that maintains, or conducts as any part of its activities, a nudist camp for juveniles." It defines the camps as those attended by "openly nude juveniles" not accompanied by parents or legal guardians.

    Attorney General Jerry W. Kilgore said last year that such camps could attract pedophiles and child pornographers.

    "We believe the law as passed is constitutional, and we look forward to defending minors and morals in the commonwealth," said Tucker Martin, a Kilgore spokesman.

    White Tail opened in southeastern Virginia in 1984. About 1,200 nudists are there at any one time, including about 30 families who live there all year. Visitors undergo background checks, and the camp has strict rules against lewd, lustful or lascivious conduct.

    Similar youth camps have been held in Florida and Arizona, according to the American Association of Nude Recreation, with which White Tail is affiliated.

    Besides White Tail, plaintiffs include three couples who are White Tail members and their children: three boys, ages 11, 15 and 17, and two girls, 10 and 12.

    "These are parents who have raised their kids in a nudist lifestyle, and they -- the parents and the kids -- view nudity as something natural and ordinary as opposed to something erotic or sexual," said Rebecca Glenberg, the lead attorney.

    "So for these kids, being around other naked kids is something perfectly normal, and the camp is very highly supervised," she said.

    Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed
    =================================================

    -Surprise surprise, I gotta side with the ACLU on this one. I mean, if parents are ok with sending their kids to nudist camps, as long as there is no exploitation going on, I don't see how the state can forbid it.

    Otherwise, could the state then rule that nudists have no right to raise their children nude? Where does it end?

    Sure, the idea of 11 year old hanging out naked with 15 year olds doesnt' sound like a great idea for me or my future children, but who am I to judge?

    locked by request
     
  2. Branthoris

    Branthoris Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2002
    Oh please. Why must every single matter in dispute be seen as ripe for court action? Courts are not benevolent, omnipotent, and omnipresent Mr Fix-Its, and if the ACLU disagrees with this law, it should attempt to overturn it in the normal manner: through that wonderful mechanism called the ballot box.
     
  3. Darth-Kevin-Thomas

    Darth-Kevin-Thomas Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2002
    This is when i question the rights of american freedom. Right of privacy is getting out of hand. Things done in your own household is still on american soil. If you murder someone in your house you go to jail.

    And no


    it would be a bunch of guys waiting for girls.
     
  4. malkieD2

    malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2002
    it would be a bunch of guys waiting for girls

    I think you've seen too many GGG videos ;)

    Honestly, I think the majority of genuine nudist camps are all legitamate and above board. Not full of dirty old men in Macs.

    I think its fine - nothing wrong with the human body.
     
  5. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    Branthoris, as much as you may disagree with American Jurisprudence today, going to court to attack an unconstitutional law IS the normal American method.

    Seriously, the legislatures work on the will of the majority, the judiciary is a CHECK on that system, so the system is working itself out as it should.
     
  6. Darth-Kevin-Thomas

    Darth-Kevin-Thomas Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2002
    This falls in the slot of Pre-teen nudity. Its illegal. Just becuase this isn't ment for sexual arousal its still teens underage nude. And i know it is not posted material and i know that teens are nude in there house when they shower. But any type of nudist camp for teens is just a bad idea. Its like crystal pepsi, its just not a good idea.

    All i can think of is that sceen from Euro Trip (shivers) This will be expoited to no end. I think that the intentions of the participants are true but for the sake of the the future this is not ok to do.
     
  7. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    Well, we all know that nudity in of itself is protected expression under the first amendment in most cases. We also know that teens don't have the same level of first amendment rights as adults, and that's because the state has a compelling interest in protecting children.

    It seems to me that this case has no hope, that a state could claim it has a compelling interest to restrict teen nudity purely on the basis of public health policy.
     
  8. Branthoris

    Branthoris Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2002
    But something is wrong when the first reaction to a disagreeable policy is to go to court to challenge it. I absolutely acknowledge the importance of judicial review, of course, as my recent posts have made clear. But it ought to be to apply the limits that the law sets, rather than to correct every wrong. It's a double-edged sword, of course; the more the courts are expected to invalidate any inappropriate law, the more people will assume that a law is OK just because the courts haven't struck it down.

    If the ACLU loses the lawsuit, it won't change one iota the question of whether the law is OK or not-OK. But that will be the assumption.
     
  9. SaberGiiett7

    SaberGiiett7 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    No. That's just screaming pre-marital sex.

    <[-]> Saber
     
  10. Jansons_Funny_Twin

    Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Oh boy, here we go.




    b4k4^2
     
  11. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    Oh please. Why must every single matter in dispute be seen as ripe for court action? Courts are not benevolent, omnipotent, and omnipresent Mr Fix-Its, and if the ACLU disagrees with this law, it should attempt to overturn it in the normal manner: through that wonderful mechanism called the ballot box.
    I couldn't disagree with you more. Unfortunately, given the shape of the world today, the majority will always attempt to impose its will on the minority. To me, the beauty of the American system has always been that the majority cannot oppress the minority.

    Since election results always (presumably) reflect the will of the majority, then changing laws by vote can only guarantee the oppression of the minority by the majority. And that's why the courts are important. Because the courts are the only body that can change a policy without requiring the support of public opinion. Only the courts can protect the minority's rights from being trampled on by the majority.

    Thus, I think it's absolutely appropriate to seek to have a law one thinks is inappropriate struck down by the courts without ever having tried to change the will of the voters. If a law truly is unconstitutional, then it should never have been allowed to exist in the first place, and it ought to be invalidated instead of simply taken off the books. I see nothing at all wrong with using the courts as a first recourse to regain lost rights.


    As far as the question of this topic is concerned, I see absolutely no reason why they should be illegal. Assuming consent of parents and children and proper behavior of administrators (meaning that no adult figure ever becomes in any way sexually involved with any of the children), I think stepping in and depriving parents and children to decide whether communal nudity is okay is a ridiculous decision. I hope the law is struck down.

    -Paul
     
  12. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    first of all: wow, i didn't even know there were teen nudist camps.

    second, i really don't see any problem with these camps, especially since it's all done with parental permission, and i would imagine that most of these kids grew up in nudist families with nudist parents, so i'm sure it's not a big deal to them.
     
  13. ask-the-younglings

    ask-the-younglings Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 18, 2004
    Y'know, things like that work in Europe (Britain aside) because we're all just used to nudity. It ceases to be anything sexual - saunas, beaches, whatever... it's just not unusual. It's the same with alcohol - in France an 8 year old may well have a glass of wine & water with a meal, but will grow up to drink sensibly. In the states, you don't drink a drop, then spend college destroying your livers.

    I can remember going to nudist beaches as a teenager, just hanging out with other people my age... there just wasn't any kind of weird sexually-repressed testosterone nonsense.
     
  14. Cyprusg

    Cyprusg Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 16, 2002
    If they want to be nude it's their business. The courts have no right to determine what's moral or not when it's something that's not hurting ANYBODY. Nudity is a beautiful thing, and if people want to be nude, more power to them.
     
  15. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    in France an 8 year old may well have a glass of wine & water with a meal, but will grow up to drink sensibly.

    That's not what this link illustrates:

    HERE

    A major anti-drinking campaign is being launched in France, Reuters reported Nov. 12. The campaign is in response to statistics that show that France has the highest alcohol consumption in the world, said the French state health insurance and education bodies on Wednesday.

    Wine drinking still dominates the alcohol market with an average of 63.5 liters of wine per person per year, although wine drinking has gradually declined. Meanwhile, spirits account for the equivalent of 2.5 liters of pure alcohol per person a year.


    At least it seems to be enough of an issue to have the French National health organization sponsor an awareness campaign.

     
  16. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    No, they should not be legal. Adult nude camps are fine, but no for kids.
     
  17. Jedi_Xen

    Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2001
    There is no problem with it. First off it is not like the movie Eurotrip that was done for comedy. I had a friend stationed in Germany, he told me about his trip to a nude beach where adults and children alike run around in the raw. There is no lusting, why? Because as soon as you enter the beach you get a shot in the arm that makes Mr Happy take a nap. So there went his thoughts of getting lucky that night.

    Secondly not everyone who sees the nude body is going to get horny. I know trying to convince some people of this is like trying to talk a brick wall into being feather soft, although the wall listens to reason better.

    I suggest before people say no as soon as they read the nudity part, they do some research on the topic. Find the pros and cons and make a decision. Saying it will lead to premarital sex is not research.
     
  18. Uruk-hai

    Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2000

    I think it's weird that parents would have kids go to a nudist camp.
     
  19. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    If a family is nudist, then the parents might appreciate some camp options for their children that do not require them to conform to outside society by wearing clothes.

    -Paul
     
  20. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Since election results always (presumably) reflect the will of the majority, then changing laws by vote can only guarantee the oppression of the minority by the majority. And that's why the courts are important. Because the courts are the only body that can change a policy without requiring the support of public opinion. Only the courts can protect the minority's rights from being trampled on by the majority.

    At the same time, could you not make a case that any law passed by a majority is a form of oppression of the minority?

    For example, a popular measure could decide to impose a progressive tax that taxes 70% of all income over $1000000, but this could also be seen as a form of oppressing the rich.

    Or, a law could be passed restricting the use of public parks after dark, but that is oppressing those who wish to use the parks at that time.

    At what point do you draw the line? To one person, it may be a minor issue, but to another it may be the most critical issue in the world.

    Not everything passed by popular vote is trampling the rights of the minorities.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  21. Uruk-hai

    Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2000
    If a family is nudist, then the parents might appreciate some camp options for their children that do not require them to conform to outside society by wearing clothes.

    I still think it's weird. I don't have anything against the idea really, but it doesn't appeal to me.

     
  22. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    K_K - That's true. And that's part of why I believe in minimalist government. I believe the only legitimate function of government is to protect people and their property from direct harm by others or by foreign powers. But this is really a discussion best-suited for another thread.

    In the topic of this thread: The Constitution certainly does not explicitly guarantee a universal right to privacy, though I don't know what kind of precedent exists in that area. I would be interested in precisely what argument is being made against the law. But as is, I oppose it. I'm going to have to think a little bit as to whether I have Constitutional justification for doing so.

    -Paul
     
  23. Jediflyer

    Jediflyer Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2001
    But any type of nudist camp for teens is just a bad idea. Its like crystal pepsi, its just not a good idea.


    Best line of the whole thread [face_laugh]
     
  24. conron_montyn23

    conron_montyn23 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2004
    "Should Teenage Nudist Summer Camps be Legal?"



    **** NO

    KK EDIT: Star out the entire word.
     
  25. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    Would all the people who have said no to this without elaboration - ShaneP and conron_montyn23 - say why they don't think it should be allowed?

    At least Darth-Kevin-Thomas and SaberGiiett7 briefly explained their positions, although I don't think that something should be illegal merely because it might permit or promote consensual sex between minors of approximately the same age. But would the rest of you justify your negative responses?

    BTW, Darth-Kevin-Thomas,
    This falls in the slot of Pre-teen nudity. Its illegal. Just becuase this isn't ment for sexual arousal its still teens underage nude.
    I may misunderstand the law, and if I do, someone please correct me -- but I'm not aware that it has been definitively established that viewing or distributing material depicting naked children in non-sexual ways is illegal. I think one legal argument sometimes used to defend people busted for the distribution of child pornography is that the pictures in question are actually artistic rather than pornographic in nature. While this claim is usually dismissed, it implies to me that artistic child nudes are not illegal. (Heck, if theyy were, then all sorts of parents would be doing jail time for taking nude baby pictures.)

    Further, I'm certain that it's perfectly legal for children to be naked around each other, and I don't think it's illegal for children to be naked with adults so long as nothing sexual occurs. (It might be illegal for an adult to coerce a child to undress in some cases, but that's clearly not what's at issue here.)

    The bottom line is that I don't think there is anything inherently illegal about children being seen naked. I'd say that's why this law needed to be written rather than prosecuting camp operators for existing offenses. If you have philosophical problems with the idea of people seeing naked children that's one thing, but I don't believe child nudity is in and of itself against the law.

    -Paul
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.