Sith Archetypes: The Types of Dark Lords

In literature, especially fantasy, there has always been good charecterisation of the sort of evil that the Sith represent, now, irrelevent of the real life complexity of good and bad (some might say there is no such thing as good and evil duality), it makes damn fine entertianment. But, sometimes Sith motivations arnt really explored well, instead being typical 'Dr Evil' cartoon villains. This is what I think the main archetypes of Sith are (more or less):

• The Lorekeeper: Motivated by the powerfull desire to obtain arcane knolwedge and secrets through intellect.

• The Ruler: Motivated by the powerfull desire to build great mololithic empires and monuments that will last eons.

• The Savior: Motivated by the desire to gain new power to save others with end result justifying means.

• The Hedonist: Motivated by the desire to take pleasure from the galaxy as the suffering of others is inconsequential.

• The Consumer: Motivated by the belief that life is irrelevent and so its total systematic destruction or consumption is also.

• The Warrior: Motivated by the desire to obtain perfection as a warrior and defeat every worthy foe to advance power.

• The Fundamentalist: Motivated by the belief in the restoration of the past glory of the Sith Empire and culture.

Its impossible to classify things which vary infinitly, like personality, with many of these catagorites perhaps overlapping, or having sub-divides, but how would various Sith Lords throughout the ages, fit into the catagories of personality and motivation?

Some of the most powerfull and well explored Sith seem to be Saviors and Rulers, and other types are explored much less. Darth Sidious, Darth Malak, as well as many of the Lords of the old Sith Empire like Marka Ragnos, were probably Ruler types, although if they had as much understanding of Sith lore and the Dark Side as we think they did, they may have been motivated by other desires, as part of their ideological Sith vision for the galaxy. Darth Reven and Darth Vader were both Savior types, gaining power to 'help' the galaxy - this is perhaps the most nieve use of the Dark Side, as it betrays ignorance in the way their actions would probably cause as much pain as the threats they feared - making ignorant and unintellectual people like Anakin Skywalker easy targets for seduction by other Sith - and leader types like Revan look to ancient lore. Personally, I think Hedonist is the least hypocritical or ignorant catagory of dark side motivation, as it is a reasoned and logical surrender to the dark side in its entirity - im not sure there have been any pure Hedonist Sith, as perhaps the catagory is considered too dark and cerebral for the franchise to explore. Darth Nihilus could be considered a Hedonist if consumption of life gave him some sort of pleasure, but was to be more specific, a Consumer. Darth Maul appeared to be a Fundamentalist, in his desire to return the Sith to a percieved former glory and obtain revenge, perhaps another nieve use of the dark side that betrays ignorance of the irrelevence of the rise and fall of empires and cultures.

 

***SPOILERS for LOTF and Legacy***

The Lorekeeper: Motivated by the powerfull desire to obtain arcane knolwedge and secrets through intellect.
-Darth Vectivus
-Darth Plagueis

The Ruler: Motivated by the powerfull desire to build great mololithic empires and monuments that will last eons.
-Adas
-Ludo Kressh
-Darth Sidious

The Savior: Motivated by the desire to gain new power to save others with end result justifying means.
-Darth Revan
-Darth Jacen
-Darth Krayt

The Hedonist: Motivated by the desire to take pleasure from the galaxy as the suffering of others is inconsequential.
-Darth Zannah
-Darth Talon

The Consumer: Motivated by the belief that life is irrelevent and so its total systematic destruction or consumption is also.
-Darth Traya
-Darth Nihilus
-Darth Sion

The Warrior: Motivated by the desire to obtain perfection as a warrior and defeat every worthy foe to advance power.
-Darth Maul

The Fundamentalist: Motivated by the belief in the restoration of the past glory of the Sith Empire and culture.
-Naga Sadow
-Exar Kun
-Ulic Qel Droma
-Darth Bane

 

Nice reply - although I havent read Legacy #1 yet, im curious, is Krayt motivated by the desire to be a savior? Also, we havent seen much of Zannah - where did you get that she is hedonist from? Traya seemed more of a Lorekeeper to me - facinated by the dark side - and I guess we will know what motivated Bane at least when his book comes out - since he reformed the Sith into master/apprentice, perhaps this indicates he wasnt much for tradition, and therefore not Fundamentalist?

Also, since the board for some reason wont let me finish the original post, here is the rest of it:

 

I think Vader would be a good candidate to be put under The Warrior as well.

 

Given that we know nothing about Zannah and Talon other than their names, I think calling them both hedonists may be a bit premature.

 

Just going by the name, I would add Darth Cognus to that list as well.

 

I dunno if Vader could be considered a candidate for Warrior type - he didnt live only to duel and become a stronger dueler - it implies dedication to that persuit when he was motivated by a desire to save people he loved from death, and later to enforce an empire that he thought would prevent huge death through sepreatism with an iron fist.

And yeh - we know next to nothing about Zannah, and while I hope there are some Hedonistic Sith in Legacy, we dont know anything about Talon yet. Darth Wyyrlok III at least looks like a Lorekeeper. Darth Stryfe may be a Warrior. Darth Maladi may be a Fundamentalist - "A skilled scientist, she tirelessly experimented with ways to pervert science to serve the Sith cause."

 

Talon's description from Legacy #0 calls her an extremely passionate at hating the Jedi. Different kinds of pleasure, killing Jedi is hers.

Darth Zannah enjoyed bein with Laa and just wanted to be happy, when something came in the way of that, well you've read the comic.

 

It could easily be funamentalist hatred that drives Talon - in which case she wouldnt see it as a pleasure, but as a duty. A dark side Hedonist implies someone who takes whatever pleasure they want from wherever they want, using the force - i.e. a warlord who pillages, loots and rapes across hundreds of planets just for personal pleasure, maintains harems of slaves, tortures victims, etc - and it implies they are fully aware of their own desires, and consiously choose to fullfill them due to the philosophical reasoning that the morality of their actions is irrelevent. Perhaps some of Lord Kaan's followers were like this, although they seem to have considered their marauding a crusade, so they were probably more likely Fundamentalist or desired to be Rulers.

As for Zannah, are we sure that we can judge the sort of Sith she would be just from some childish desire as a youngling? Anakin just wanted the pleasure of staying with his mother and his girlfriend, but it didnt mean he would turn into a hedonist, infact he turned into a 'saviour'.

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Its worth noting that the Sith Code itself seems to have only been a means by which people could achieve dark side enlightenment and power, and so didnt effect the archetype of each Sith Lord that rose to dominance - Dark Lords were free to proceed with their own vision, whether it was hedonistic or empire building, provided they were strong enough to see it through, and the Sith process of natural selection through competition, deceit and combat was only a means of breeding the most powerfull Sith - therefore Bane really did turn the basis of Sith philosophy on its head by instituting the rule of two - he eliminated the natural competitive element, instead leaving it to the master to select the best apprentice. Krayt seems to have returned to the traditional Sith ways. Bane was like a Sith communist - moving from competition as an economic driving force, to state planning (i.e. masters selecting the future Sith themselves instead of allowing natural competition to do it).

 

Given that Vader's motivation was to use his power to save Padme and to bring order to the galaxy that the senate was corrupting wouldn't the Savior be a closer archetype?

 

Definatly.

 

I'm not sure some Sith really manage to fall into neat "Archetypes". Sidious, for example, has elements of the Ruler (Duh), the Fundamentalist ("Once more the Sith shall rule the galaxy!"), and the Lorekeeper (Just look at all that "Dark Empire" foo) all rolled into one.

Sure, some of them are easily "pegged" (Maul, for example), but many of the truly great ones are likely to "overlap" two or more categories.

Oh, and I'd add Darth Tyranus to the "Savior" list (though he has certain aspects of the Lorekeeper and Warrior, as well). Though I might suggest another archetype altogether:

The Narcissist: Driven by nothing less than the belief that they are fundamentally superior to everyone around them. The Narcissist constantly seeks to prove and affirm that superiority. Whether it's combat, politics, or anything else, the Narcissist always has to be the best, and will go to any lengths to achieve that ideal. (Examples: Darth Tyranus, Freedon Nadd)

 

Yeh, I mentioned they were generalisations.

And you are right that it is hard to determine whether Sidious was Ruler or Fundamnetalist - but it seems he moved from one to other other with circumstance - assuming his Fundamentalism wasnt mearly a passing thought when he was talking to Anakin, or in the case of Maul, a motivational inspiration for his apprentice - he became predominantly a Ruler once he obtained power - building a monolithic empire, fleets of starships, legions of troops, monumental buildings (and space stations), etc.

Sith must prove their worth anyway, or else be usurped, so I dont think its really as big a drive as the other ones - in Lord Kaan it was actually a personality flaw, not a strenght, and in others, out-performing previous Sith Lords has probably been a consideration to a great many Sith, who werent neccecarily self-obsessed. As I said in the original post, there are other sub catagories we could define - for example 'Warrior' can equate to any kind of 'prefectionist'. Also not every motivation makes a Dark Lord - revenge for example might be a motive in the actions of a person, but it dosent neccecarily mean they live for revenge - if they did take pleasure in it, would that be Hedonism? If they considered it a duty, would that be Fundamentalism? Ive left the catagories as they are for the sake of simplification.

 

i'd say Vader falls into this slot as well, and that this seems to be the logical type for Jedi turned Sith to be in. they want to save people (Jedi trait) but use any means neccisary (Sith trait).

and obviously all the main Sith have elements of each category... but IMO they can be placed in one main group based on thier main motivations, though to attain whatever their goals are they generally must delve into all the facets of Sith-ness.

 

There are different ways of achieving pleasure, the same sort of pleasure, sex is merely one of them.

Zannah's age is not that important, since your most basic driving force will be the same since you are a child. Humans are essentially overgrown children, with a little more intelligence and a different way of acting, but their "essence", what basically describes them is always there.

Here I am describing why they fell, not why they sought it in the first place, because they didn't. Anakin is a "savior" in the sense that he sought the path for saving, but the point when he really became a Sith was not because of trying to save anyone, it was merely because he hated himself. Zannah fell when Laa died, she wanted to "make it right". Talon was raised a Sith, so I her I just guessed because of her description.


So I disagree with Vader being a savior. Jacen, Revan and Krayt continued trying to save something even after becoming Sith, but Vader, although initially planning to do that, had nothing to save after their deaths, which were essentially before he truly fell. His entire Sith life was basically a tantrum at himself for what had happened. And at whatever else he could.

 

I definitely think Vader would be the Warrior. He was going for Savior before Mustafar... but after that, he had nothing he wanted to save, really. Giving his musings in Shadows of the Empire, he laments not having any foe worthy of him other than his own son, since all the Jedi are dead. His thoughts on the contest with Xizor are relevent, too, IMO.

Ulic Qel-Droma was most decidedly a Savior. He just got carried away.

Tyranus I'm having a difficult place putting. Given his elistim & human superiority and eventual goals for the remnants of the Jedi and other Force using traditions, he seems to be mostly toeing Sidious line so goes with The Ruler.

The Lorekeeper: Motivated by the powerfull desire to obtain arcane knolwedge and secrets through intellect.
-Darth Plagueis

The Ruler: Motivated by the powerfull desire to build great mololithic empires and monuments that will last eons.
-Adas
-Marka Ragnos
-Ludo Kressh
-Darth Tyranus
-Darth Sidious


The Savior: Motivated by the desire to gain new power to save others with end result justifying means.
-Ulic Qel-Droma
-Darth Revan
-Darth Jacen

The Hedonist: Motivated by the desire to take pleasure from the galaxy as the suffering of others is inconsequential.
-Darth Zannah
-Kaan

The Consumer: Motivated by the belief that life is irrelevent and so its total systematic destruction or consumption is also.
-Darth Traya
-Darth Nihilus
-Darth Sion

The Warrior: Motivated by the desire to obtain perfection as a warrior and defeat every worthy foe to advance power.
-Darth Malak
-Darth Maul
-Darth Vader

The Fundamentalist: Motivated by the belief in the restoration of the past glory of the Sith Empire and culture.
-Naga Sadow
-Exar Kun
-Darth Bane

 

Yeh - Vader may have become a warrior type under the Emperor, although we cant be sure that just because he expressed those thoughts in Shadows, that its what Lucas would have intended.

I dont buy that 'he hated himself' thing - maybe im just not experienced with that kind of thing, but through putting myself in someone elses shoes, hating oneself dosent seem like a very potent Sith motive - self-flagillation can be achieved without the power of the dark side, so can masochism. Check out how Vader did things like raise his voice when chokeing the life out of the rebel officer in ANH, to obtain the Death Star plans - was that a man without purpose and motivation beyond self hate? I think he may have thought he was doing as much good for the galaxy as Revan thought he was doing.

What you said about Zannah dosent really alter my earlier opinion - infact the way you have interpreted her would make her more like a saviour type, not wanting to let people she loved die - I know very well what pain and pleasure can imply in philosophical hedonism - and we have no idea if Zannah ended up literally immersing herself in the dark side by fully acknolweding her desire for happyness at any cost, hence it is baseless to call her a Hedonistic type.

 

There was a weird frak up there with the quotage

And it's just my classification, it's not a "fact" or anything, just giving Sith what best fits them, it doesn't mean thats their defining attribute, since there aren't too many classifications listed

 

Yeh that was wierd :-\

Personally I really hope we see some major Sith darkness in the Bane novel - and I wish they would do one written in an old epic style like the Silmarillion, except about the ancient Sith Empire - a sort of dark epic of millions dying and being sacrificed at Sith alters, as the ancient Sith Empire subjugates its part of the galaxy.

Since the Jedi seem to follow a combination of glorified versions of European, Indian and Chinese philosophy, being sort of Greek/Hindu/Buddhist/Confucian, the Sith could be Egyptian/Aztec/Mayan, with ancient burial rites, tomes, tombs, sacrificial alters (to the force?), monuments, etc.

 

Sacrificial Altars to themeselves is more probable


Actually, if I remember, in Abel's article it does mention "human" sacrifice. I'll reread it and come back here

 

Cool, im interested in hearing about that. Perhaps Sith were capable of consuming followers, not unlike Darth Nihilis, in order to gain their power? Or simply for pleasure? I dont think the Sith should have 'gods' in the traditional sence, seeing as they understand the force - but humanoid sacrifice as a means of power would be a cool facet of ancient Sith society.

 

It seems I imagined (or fantasized) the sacrifice thing on the article. Nevertheless, it's quite probable they did.

Ah, you are speaking sort of how Sidious did with Byss? The Ori do in Stargate? That be awesome

 

Actually thats been done quite a lot - the whole human battery or alien-that-feeds-off-worship thing - I was thinking something more archeic - perhaps Sith alchemy - i.e. the binding of force powers to metal weapons, required the sacrifice of many victims - perhaps the most powerfull weapons, wielded by the Sith Lords themselves, required thousands of humanoid prisoners of war to be sacrificed through Sith magic on blood alters on Korriban, invoking the attention of ancient ancestral force ghosts, or imprinting the life force energy of the victims on the weapons?

While a lot of what we think of as Aztec/Egyptian/whatever is steriotype that dosent reflect the historical truth, (usually propaganda and exageration by the forces responsible for the destruction of the perticular society in question), it would be nice to imprint some of these old steriotypes upon the Sith, to invoke their archaic nature - i.e. we have seen thousands of slaves toiling to build tombs, and the survivors being condemned to die so that they cannot spill the secrets of its construction.

 

Dreadlord Vader was just a pawn, used by Darth Palpatine. Lord Vader just wanted to be with his wife and would do everything to prevent the death of lady Amidala, he saw in his visions that she died, but what he didn't know, was that Lord Palpatine implanted this visions inside his head. and he knew Anakin would come to tell his problems and he told(made up?) a story about a Sith Lord that could manipulate the midi-chloridians( he was a reality warper)and Anakin believed it and would do anything to achieve his goal: the safety of his wife! So i think Vader was a Pawn.
And this makes Palpatine the smartes Sith ever, he convinced the Federation to attack the Republic and right on time there was an army. He controlled the Enemy, The Republic and the Armies of both.

 

Ragnos was manipulator. Fearing the loss of what empire they had, he allowed his lieutenants (I really don't know why the french call that lefftentant, just wanted to say) their in-fighting, keeping the Sithynsiser playing within, not outside.

Still don't know why a laser blaster amazed Sadow when their warships shot them bigger, but he was called the best of the best, power and prestige.

And boy did he look ridculous with those horns.