Sith immortality and holocrons

In Legacy, Bane, Andeddu and Nihilus talk to Darth Krayt and dismiss the One Sith. Since the Sith cannot force ghost, is the way they achieve this immortality by somehow encapsualting their 'essence' within a holocron? And if so, wouldn't they need to do this as they die, rather than creating a holocron to do this, possibly decades before they die?

Which other Sith have achieved this? I wonder why we never see the likes of Sidious or Plagueis appear in this way, with all the knowledge and power that they would be able to pass on. Surely they would've mastered creating their own holocrons?

 

Sith can bind their spirits within a structure or building filled with enough darkside energy, see Exar Kun. I think they're called Shades.

 

Sith can ghost just fine, though arguably what they do is somehow different from what the Jedi do, in spite of very few practical differences in capabilities. And even that depends on Quigs being infallible.

According to RoT, holocrons are created by infusing the components with an imprint of the brain functions of the creator, so that the AI avatar can act as the creator would towards holocron users. So if a ghostly blue-white person is emitted from a holocron, it is more likely to be a holographic avatar than a ghost.

Sith ghosts are usually called Dark Spirits. According the the DS Sourcebook, these can move just fine inside Force rich areas, and even teleport to such places around the galaxy at will. Identical to light-side Force Spirits. Indeed, the only thing I'm aware of suggesting some difference between Dark Spirits and Force Ghosts, is Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi stating Obi can move about the galaxy at will, which is more than any other ghost, dark or light, has been able to. And with Dark Spirits having no similar example to compete with, the current assumption I make is that Dark Spirits are chained to Force-rich areas, while certain Force Ghosts can move about at will.

 

Also, dark side spirits can be destroyed, so are more just incorporeal longevity that ultimately is still linked to the mortal realm, as opposed to the true spiritual immorality that someone who Force ghosts achieves, as while dark side spirits can finally be sent on a long overdue voyage to Chaos, bona fide Force ghosts are one with the Force and truly eternal, not just hanging around in an incorporeal ghostly limbo.

As far as holocrons go: Andeddu's shown that they can be an object to anchor one's spirit to, but then Sith Lords can basically do that to pretty much any object. To use a Harry Potter analogy, I see dark side spirits as basically linked to a horcrux; just there's only one, not seven. Just like Voldemort wasn't immortal, he was just cheating death, that's pretty much all a dark side spirit is doing. Instead of returning to the Force, they're just anchoring themselves in the mortal realm to hang about as an incorporeal essence. "We're not this crude matter" and all that; they're just throwing off the matter and hanging around as the energy that was always inside, unwilling to vanish away into the Force.

Why can non-ghostly holocrons talk and speak and think? Well, they are Rakatan derived technology, and their entire empire was built on Force wizardry. While they might not all be like Andeddu and be carrying their spirits around inside, I just figure they're like any Force phantom; by leaving an "imprint", it's a bit like leaving behind a shadow or a painting. It may not be you, but it's like an echo in the Force of who you were that carries all your thoughts, memories, personality, blah, blah, blah, akin to a super advanced computer scanning your brain or whatever, just in a more magical kind of way. Not that all holocrons are like that, mind; IIRC, a few have only seemed to contain more mundane computer matrices and been fairly generic square boxes made by non Force-users. I tend to just treat those as a result of IU language erosion though of "small computer box" over time coming to mean a "holocron" whether it's a true Forcey one or a plain old nanomachine thing.

 

RPG Force Ghosts are supposed to be unable to stick around for long, so the lack of examples of light spirits being banished is kinda understandable. Also, it says they can be destroyed by dark side energy, or other GM-approved stimuli. The latter gets a bit game mechanical to be taken very seriously, but there is no doubt they can be destroyed just like the dark ones can.

Furthermore, the PotJ Sourcebook says retaining individuality after death is against the will of the Force, and gives such ghosts only a limited number of times to reach back into the galaxy before fading away. That can hardly be called true immortality. Not if your consciousness has to be sacrificed for it. Finally, as demonstrated by both Palp and Nadd, Dark Spirits can be pulled back from Chaos with the help of someone still in the galaxy, even should they be banished.

So if anything, it seems Dark Spirits are the ones in possession of true immortality, not the light variety.

 

If the Force is anything like the far eastern religions on which it's based most people will be reborn from the Force I imagine, Qui Gon must have found a way to delay that process. The Sith will end up stuck in a demonic half life neither living nor truly dead, something Palpatine was keen to avoid. I'm not sure if Sith Ghosts can actually be destroyed or if like Sauron from Lord of the Rings they just have all their powers removed and are left to drift formless.

 

Depends what one values more. In Jedi terms, total obliteration of the self to achieve union with everything is meant to be the more desirable option. Being dark might mean you can keep coming back, but then, this is one of the reasons why I personally don't get what makes heaven any better or worse than hell or there being nothing at all and you just ceasing to exist.

Whatever happens after death, there's undesirable bits either way. Hanging around in eternal limbo while everybody else has been obliterated into oneness isn't exactly my idea of a fun afterlife... eternal loneliness all on your own sounds like a cocktail for everlasting depression. Ditto, spiritual oblivion to return to the Force and swirl around forever in a massive cosmic cocktail sauce doesn't exactly sound like much fun either.

Hence why Sith prefer not to die in the first place.

 

As Exar Kun said to Luke when he was in a disembodied state "You'll find the first couple of hundred years to be the worst". He clearly wasn't enjoying his 4000 years worth of immortality all that much.

 

So why (at least in my knowledge of the EU) have we never seen a Sidious or Plagueis holocron or dark spirit? I can imagine a Sidious from beyond the dead being ever more terrifying than the live version...and the possibility of a Plagueis holocron existing somewhere carrying all his dark side knowledge could lead a future Sith to become the most powerful force user ever...

 

Well, assuming DE Sidious kept his most valuable holocrons close at hand, I'd say it's because Byss was blown to bits. Throw in the repeated destructions of Coruscant, the other logical place for him to have kept these items, and I think that any late Banite-era Sith Holocrons would not have survived to the "present" EU.

 

Adding on to what saber_death was saying, you have to remember also that Plagueis was murdered suddenly. He may well have been planning something like that, only to be fatally interrupted, if you'll pardon the pun.

 

Isn't there supposedly a Sidious holocron referenced in the book covering the Force in the SW galaxy, in the chapter that covers the Sith?

And while I'm here -- who was this Darth Nihilus guy that Krayt speaks to in the first Legacy collection? They made him sound like some sort of armor-bound ghost.

 

He's from KOTOR 2. Basicaly a "god" of sorts. He once was a man, or something living, but after the battle of Malachor the Mass Shadow Generator turned him into something less then human. He then went around devouring people's force and thus their life. Apparently he placed his mind in his mask.

 

Darth Andeddu's holocron was actually not a holocron, it held his actual spirit under the disguise of simply being a holocron.

A normal holocron is usually not the Sith's (or Jedi's) actual spirit. Andeddu being the exception.

 

Holocrons will be the closest Star Wars equivalent of holograms from Star Trek.

 

I think the idea that Sith Holocrons use Rakatan tech is based off the Rakatan "tri-angular box" in KotOR 1 that were apparently used as prisons for the souls of Rakatan criminals.

 

I think it was also mentioned in Evil Never Dies as one of the things the Rakatans gifted to the Sith before King Adas refused to become their pawn.

 

That's right, actually. The Telos holocron contains Palp.

 

That's doubtful given that it's a light side ability. Qui-Gon's description of ghosting does not seem to indicate a violation of the Force's will, nor does the general characterization of those who ghosted in the films.