Slaughtering Children

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but it is really confusing me.

In AOTC Anakin admits to slaughtering sand people. Men, women and children. And Padme says "To be angry is to be human."

But in ROTS, when Padme lands on Mustafar she is suprised and saddened that Anakin killed younglings, and she realizes that he is evil.

To me he's not any more evil than he was while killing Tuskain Raider children. So killing children is not new to him.

Just because he killed his own kind, that doesn't mean that it is any less evil than when killing Tuskain Raider kids.

Did Padme not consider Tuskain Raider lives as important as Jedi ones?

 

I think this is just bad writing.

I love Star Wars and always will but I have to be honest too. The plot needed you to care at the end of ROTS when he killed kids.

But from an in-Universe perspective, she maybe did believe they were of lesser value than human life.

Or she thought Ani was justified in doing so (to some degree). I don't buy it though.

 

Sand people are consistently treated as sub-human by other characters and even by omniscient narrators in Star Wars, it's a bit disturbing. I understand they raid and pillage, but so did/do people. They were originally basically native Americans in space, and we only see them from a colonist's perspective, so i never had a problem with that. But i'd just like someone, like a Jedi, to respect their sapience. Hell, even the goddamn Wampa from ESB got a sympathetic back-story in the EU (beyond unnecessary) but the obviously humanoid creatures with a little village and obviously complicated rituals? THEY'RE MONSTERS I TELL YOU

Anyway, i always felt this way. You kill kids, you've killed kids.

 

The closest we get that I can think of is Revan in KOTOR, and that is only by the players choice. Oh, and Sharad Hett.............and A'Sharad Hett for that matter.

 

It would have been better to have him say in AOTC, "I killed them... I killed all the men" instead of "I killed them all... and not just the men, but the women and the children too". That was kind of overkill (no pun intended) on the part of Anakin and/or the plot, because it would have still been enough at that point in the overall story for him to have killed all the men. It would have shown us enough at that point of the story of the potential that he had to lose it and slip to the dark side... but it also would have enabled more people to feel empathy for Anakin, because he would have come closer to just avenging his mother's death instead of going arguably too far beyond that. Likewise, it would have made Padme's reaction more understandable. And plot-wise, as noted, it would have made the youngling killing later in ROTS more full of impact.

 

He didn't even need to be specific and say he killed the men. He could have just said "I killed them all. I showed them no mercy, slaughtered them like animals."

 

I honestly found Padme's reaction to be understandable and consistent. Let's not forget that Anakin not only saved her home-world in a time of crisis, but he also saved her from assassination not too long ago. She's also aware that he's been distraught about his mother's fate for quite some time and Cliegg Lars' description must have done little to assuage either of them. So when she sees this kid come back with his dead mother in his arms and he breaks down crying, I can sympathize that she wouldn't know what to do or say and would choose to keep it a secret for him. It's a far cry from what happens in ROTS, where he remorselessly kills the Jedi children and then starts spouting delusions of ruling an Empire. Her response was not ideal, but it was exceedingly human.

 

PiettsHat is correct; there is psychological validity to Padme's reaction/s.

Here's a hypothetical...

In a fit of rage/despair, a returning soldier confesses to his wife that he engaged in war crimes overseas. What's the first thing to come out of her mouth? "You were in war! You didn't mean to do that! You're a good man!"

Two months later, the same returning soldier goes nuts in a 7-11 and shoots everyone in the store. What's the first thing to come out of wifey's mouth? "It wasn't him! He'd never do anything like that! He's a veteran!!!!"


Human frailty.

 

To be fair, having Anakin shorten his line to just having killed the Tusken males would really make that scene entirely non-sensical, as the audience sees males attack him when he exits the tent. Sticking in the women and kids shifts it from "Jedi probably defending himself as he tries to escape with his dead mom's corpse" to "Jedi committing mass murder out of rage."

Entirely different concepts.

 

The problem here is that Padme dismisses it. Here she just seams way out of character. She's all about rights for all species. That's why the Lars garage sequence needs to be removed for the sake of Padme's integrity within the films. Or just end the scene where Anakin says about Obi-wan is holding him back, then the scene ends and then wipes to the burial of his mother! The moment he tells her and she forgives him is the one sequence in the whole saga that really doesn't belong, in my opinion of course!

 

Oh not this again Anakin and The Tusken Raiders has been brought up and discussed to the death over so many threads in recent months. Views on each aspect (including the children) have been expressed exhaustedly already by the majority. It just keeps getting brought up again and again.

There are a number of reasons why Padme reacts differently in both situations. But the main ones for me concern motive and reaction. Padme can empathise with Anakin's motive in Episode 2 - she can understand his blind rage for everyone even loosely associated with the death of his Mother - she recognises his rage got the better of him and accepts that in his reaction he is sorry for what he has done. With the Jedi younglings, firstly, Anakin has killed them for her - something she did not desire. As far as she can understand, his motivations are far less excusable here. He wasn't acting out of any justified anger or rage. Those Jedi younglings had done nothing to him. Nor in her opinion did they stand between her and death. And crucially, his reaction to the act is different. He feels no remorse. He feels it is justified. It is confirmation to Padme that he is indeed now a very different person. And that's what distresses her more than the act itself.

There's an interpretation by some here that Padme doesn't mind that Anakin killed the Tuskens in Episode 2. I didn't read that at all. I dont think for a minute Padme thinks its okay. But crucially, neither does Anakin. They both agree at that point it was the wrong thing to do. And therefore they are not at odds. Padme chooses a more sympathetic approach with Anakin at this point because firstly she realises Anakin's acts were very human - that he did things under certain circumstances that most average, imperfect people would do, and secondly, because Anakin has clearly already given himself enough grief about the events as it is. It would be of no further use to point out the errors of his ways at that point.

To suggest Padme's reactions are inconsistent mean my reactions are inconsistent. And I dont think they are. What Anakin did in Episode 2 is wrong. What he did in Episode 3 is wrong. Can I sympathise with him and forgive him for what he did in Episode 2? Yes. Can I sympathise with him and forgive him for what he did in Episode 3? Only to a certain point (as someone watching the film from his point of view) but nowhere near as much, and I can certainly identify key differences in the two examples. While my assessment may be flawed, its no stretch of the imagination to suggest Padme would not rationalise the events the same way. You might not agree with her or my reactions. But that doesn't mean they are contradictory or illogical. As drg4 said - the difference in our world is a bit like a soldier killing a group of people in a warzone as a kneejerk reaction (women and children included) because he deems them responsible for the death of a friend (its been done - theres an excellent Nick Broomfield movie that covers it very well; Battle For Haditha I think its called) and that same person later shooting up a McDonalds for example, simply because the demons in his head told him to. One is rather easy to empathise with - the other isn't.

 

It's not about Anakin feeling guilty and her forgiving Anakin for what he's done because she sees his guilt, slaughtering women and children is slaughtering women and children and it is so unforgivable. Her character should never have forgiven him of such action for any reason, it's that bad! She shouldn't be falling in love with this guy after him admitting to such a crime, I'd be turning his butt over to the Jedi Council! Here on our planet doing what he did, even though one feels bad for what they've done would not get you off the hook. Anyone finding out you did would end you up in the big house or on death row.

What is the definition of what is intelligent life, and what is an animal and what is not. Some people think that the Tuskin's are intelligent beings, they live primitively and make sounds when they speak like Chewbacca but that does not make them any less than any other intelligent species in the Star Wars universe. Padme doesn't get upset when Anakin kills these beings contradicts her character.

This is why the moment in the scene where Anakin tells her what he's done needs to be cut out of the film, it's not how a real persons reacts to hearing such disturbing news. I'm just shocked there's no reaction from her after the fact the about the slaughter. She just says to be angry is to be human, not oh no, I need to contact the Jedi Council, Anakin has ceased to be behaving like a Jedi!

 

After some thought, i can see anakin's view if i look at it through other lenses. I was imagining a Chinese War-Hero in ancient Imperial China, finding his mother kidnapped and tortured in a Mongol encampment. Out of rage, he slaughters the mongols, even the children. Seeing as he was raised to see them as the enemy and as rampaging hordes already, it's not much of a stretch, and it is conceivable that someone who loves him would understand and forgive. However, if that same War hero entered a temple and killed praying Chinese children, he would not be forgiven.

The only issue here is that the Jedi aren't just soldiers, they're a religious order, one that holds life above all things. But Anakin was never much a conventional Jedi to begin with, so that may not mean much.

And my large issue is how the GFFA as a whole treats Tuskens as monsters. the few that were portrayed differently turned out to be human. From they eyes of the characters, it's not contradictory, they're all raised to see Tuskens a certain way. But we shouldn't be.

 

If you believe certain things are unforgivable then so be it. I won't change your mind. But I disagree with you and evidently so does Padme. As far as I'm concerned, anything is forgivable if a person is truly sorry for their actions. While I'm not religious, its my understanding that The Bible states this too. Personally, "unforgivable" is not a word that enters my vocabulary. To dismiss Anakin's remorse as unimportant or insignificant is wrong, in my opinion.

Thats not strictly speaking true. The crime Anakin commits, although on a mass-scale, is essentially second-degree murder, I believe. I doubt he would end up on death-row. Even judicial systems on this planet acknowledge differences between merely the crime itself and the reason for the crime. My sentence for killing a man would be far greater than it would were I to kill him having come home and found him having murdered my wife, for example. And my attitude and plea to any court may also affect my sentence. In legal cases, defence lawyers will often cite a defendant's remorse as a method of reducing any sentence. So yes, these factors do play a part legally, though thats beside the point really

Like it or not, I think she was already in love with him by this point.

She is clearly shocked. Despite what she may be feeling, her expressing any anger or distress is of no use at that point. She sees Anakin's own distress. Her attempt to comfort him is quite rational under the circumstances. She can't change what has happened. She can only reflect on how Anakin feels about it. Had Anakin been laughing maniacally about it and her reaction had been just the same, I would grant you it would be somewhat inconsistent. But his words and his clear feelings play a huge part in influencing her reaction.

So you didn't read any shock on her face at all?

 

Yeah, there's a very distinct "initial reaction" shot of Padme when Anakin tells her what he's done. She looks pretty clearly shocked.


Also, lol at the idea of Padme being all about species' rights. She asked Jar-Jar what the hell he was, didn't she?

 

I know no one who believes otherwise is likely to be convinced, but here's some links to relevant discussion on the topic if you're interested:

The conversation I had is mostly on the second and third pages of this thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/prequel_trilogy/b10669/31492637/p2

And pages 51 to 52 of this thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/prequel_trilogy/b10669/30737825/p51

That's mostly what I've said on the subject, and many others contributed to the topic at hand. I'm puzzled as to why people think that Padme could never forgive Anakin. Even after the Trade Federation invaded her home and suppressed her people, she was still willing to negotiate with them by ROTS. I've always felt that one of her overarching character traits is that she tries to see the good in others, which is unfortunately manipulated by Palpatine.

 

Did Padme not consider Tuskain Raider lives as important as Jedi ones?

Yes.

 

I think in the Star Wars universe anyone that has been to Tattooine and come into contact with Tusken raiders considers them to be uncivilized beasts, less than human or any other species...more like animals

"Those Tuskens walk like men..."

 

So, to sum the pro-existing-story arguments up:

In AOTC, Anakin kills an entire Tusken tribe out of rage over what they did to his mother. Even the children are murdered.
Afterwards, he feels remorse, because he knows that he shouldn't have done any of that.
His actions and following reaction are understandable and Padmé can sympathize with him.

In ROTS, Anakin turns on the Jedi and kills everyone in the temple in cold blood, hoping that he will be able to save Padmé's life. Even the younglings are murdered.
Afterwards, he shows no remorse, only elation because he feels that the dark side has made him stronger.
His actions and following (lack of) reaction are so far removed from everything that Anakin used to stand for that Padmé can't believe what's happening.

It's perfectly believable. Add to this the probable fact that Padmé somehow feels betrayed by Anakin when Obi-Wan tells her about the younglings, because she didn't think that he would ever do something like that again, let alone to his own "family".
She understands that Obi-Wan speaks the truth, but she doesn't want to admit it to herself. This new reality is too much for her to bear.





Padmé - she doesn't want to believe
/LM

 

^ Good points. And just to clarify, when I said this...

... part of that was from the perspective of how the movies could have generated less arguing and interpretive problems on the part of some viewers; not necessarily that I actually had a real problem with the way things were actually done.

 

First of all, as d-arblay already said, she didn't just dismiss it. I've heard arguments that she should have reported him to the Council or something but never that comforting him was out of character. Really? One, her last words are "there's good in him." Two, that's the mother of Luke Skywalker! The man who forgives his father for cutting off his hand and so many crimes against the galaxy. You may not like the redemption theme of the story but you can't say it doesn't fit in the saga when it's very clear how much Luke is his mother's son.

 

Well excuse me for not knowing that this had been posted over and over again.

 

Maybe it's debated so often because it's something worth debating. Padme is a senator, spending a lot of her time with a thousand different species, some of them considered savage by many, but she, as a senator, looks deeper. Anakin has been raised in the Jedi Order, regardless of his rebellion against it. He not been made to think other species are lesser and Padme definitely hasn't. Even if a farmer considers them mindless monsters (and much of star wars sadly does like i said before) In-universe, Anakin and Padme don't.

Just look at it as if under those wraps, Tuskens were human and everyone knew it. The thing is, in the GFFA, other species are equal to humans. Regardless of what biases local humans have a Senator would view Tuskens as equal (and so to the viewer, as humans) and therefore should have seen it as Anakin slaughtering human children. And i don't think that's justifiable or so easily forgivable for any reason. He could have killed all the men, even those that weren't involved and unarmed and he'd be redeemable. The only reason why it'd be more wrong for him to kill the women too would be that it'd leave the children orphans in the desert and would essentially be killing them too. But they went with him killing children and Padme treating it like he killed baby birds or something, not humans. This makes humans seem superior to other sapient aliens, which is not true in the GFFA and would reek with racist undertones if it were true.