So, does Karen Traviss REALLY dislike Jedi/write them poorly?

Share your opinion and give examples in your mind.

RF: One strike...

Why this was allowed to be left open, let alone even started, I won't begin to fathom. This is nothing more than "incitement to riot" for all intents and purposes, at the expense of a single author.

 

I've sworn off LOTF.

She's not wholly responsible, but she's party to it. And since it is her real introduction to "Jedi as focus" stories, it seems the coincidences could be causalities under more depth of investigation...but I'm not picking them up again to find a "smoking-gun" of indictment.

I will toss this in though...perhaps if the Mando subplot weren't so obviously forced, the Jedi main plot wouldn't seem so sorely second-rate.

 

I would say that it's impossible to claim that she wouldn't dislike the Jedi, she has said herself often enough that she doesn't like them, but that wouldn't be a problem if she would be able to write them without her dislike showing. She can't. And then when she isn't able to write her favourite characters objectively enough, to occasionally portray them negatively, the end result isn't pretty. The Mandalorians are portrayed like the heroes of Enid Blyton's books and Luke... Luke could well be played by Steve Martin in a film version of LotF based on Traviss' depictions of him. Pretty dumb, insecure, incapable of making decisions and because he is weak-willed, incapable of sticking to them if he once is able of making one, but behind all that otherwise a nice man who is funny because he snores.

 

She dislikes how most Old Republic Jedi are portrayed - as mindless slaves to the system. Going by the films and other non-comic sources, I don't disagree with her.

Does she write them poorly? Hell no. She freely admits that Bardan and Etain are not good at being Jedi. That's why she can write them doing things more mainstream Jedi wouldn't be doing.

She did a really good job with the Jedi in her LOTF books, though. Probably because the NJO aren't just the good little automatons of the Clone Wars.

 

You have to tell where you got that version of LotF where she portrayes the Jedi well. I would really like to read it too, compared to the one I've got in my bookshelf.

 

Shrug. I like em.

 

Personally, I rather like the Mando subplot in LOTF. It's a breath of fresh air away from the Jedi-centric plots that, while has it's place, does get rather stale after the millionth Force-use to get out of a nearly impossible situation. It's a big Galaxy people, I like seeing how the other factions deal with growing GA-Confederacy War that don't involve any Force-use or Lightsabers.

To me, Traviss's Novels are like the dark cookie part of the Oreo. Such a great contrast to the lofty, creamed goodness of the center sugared fluff. Yet, both parts of the cookie need each other to taste great.

"Look to the Cookie! Look to the Cookie!"

Does Traviss deserve the usual raking over the coals she so frequently gets here on the Boards? No. Not in the least.

*speaking the other factions, Where's my criminal scum/smugglery types!?!?!*

 

This is silly. I'm sure Karen doesn't really dislike the jedi so much as the RC novels are from the darkest time in galactic history. Jedi were dis-illusioned, not only in her writing but in many other EU properties as well. Dark Horse had the series featuring Mace and a number of Jedi who left the order.
Karen simply presents the Jedi as individual characters and we really only see Zey, Bardan and Etain in the RC novels. We don't see the other side of the jedi simply because they are not part of that story. She doesn't write the jedi as if they are superheroes without faults like so many of the other writers do. They are human beings, with exceptional powers yes, but human still. Still subject to making mistakes, still subject to disagreeing with their masters. AS you watched hundreds of your peers die would you stand by and follow the party line just cause Yoda tells you to?
As for LOTF, I can only remember Sacrifice clearly enough to comment on it. Karen did a great job on that book. That was a story about a family falling apart that simply happen to be jedi, not Jedi with the "family" aspect being secondary and unimportant.
I think Karen would do a great job on a book about a devout Jedi aswell. One who believes in the jedi order completely. Arguements can certainly be made about her RC Jedi not fitting the mold, but thats because the mold is broken.

 

As stated, she openly dislikes the Jedi. She's said she cheered when they were killed in Order 66. I can't believe it's only the old Republic Jedi that have earned her disdain... to me it's obvious in LOTF as well. Particularly because she shoehorns so much of her Mando "subplot" into LOTF. It's not even a subplot, it IS the plot of her books. The rest of the story takes a backseat to Boba's quest to stay alive and it hurts LOTF overall. You cannot argue "well, other authors have their pet characters too" because Allston and Denning write their characters as a part of the story and they fit in logically. So far Boba's personal quest has just sort of been shoved into Traviss' works without having really any bearing on the overall storyline. I mean, how much did it hurt Sacrifice to have Mara's fight with Jacen cut to shoehorn Boba in for no reason whatsoever... and to have Boba shoehorned in right after Mara dies??? That hurts the story. Stang, she regressed Mara because she can't seem to write her as a Jedi going on a solo mission after Jacen and turned her back into her Emperor's Hand persona.

She treats Boba and the Mandos with the love that she has for them, Force-users get the short end of the stick.

 

Lets be honest, authors will always write about their favorite characters/ character stereotypes.

Obviously, many people enjoy her style of writing. Equally, many dislike her style of writing. I figure that out of LotF, I'll get three books I'll love, three I'll enjoy, and three that I'll read once.

You can't make everyone happy, and it takes all kinds to make a world.

Besides, if Ms. Traviss wasn't writing SW novels, we'd (I am among those that dislike her style of writing) just lambaste some other author whom we don't care for.

 

Stang, she regressed Mara because she can't seem to write her as a Jedi going on a solo mission after Jacen and turned her back into her Emperor's Hand persona.[/quote]

Did Mara ever strike you as an ideal Jedi? That was about a mother trying to protect her family, not a loveless jedi robot setting out to do the will of the force. Karen is the only EU author who has ever written Mara well, including Zahn. I prefer her portrayals of characters that have minds of their own. Do you all think Walon Vau is a nice character?

 

Karen Traviss is one of my favorite Star Wars author. I like the way she portrays the Jedi, for once they're not all knowing, all powerful deities, they're actually people.

I like her LOTF books, I like her Mandalorian plotline and how it integrates into the larger story. I may be the only one who thinks that but I've seen no problem with the Mandalorian plot line.

I like the way she portrayed Mara, for once we have Jedi not acting like their perfect little selves, but actually as... PEOPLE! I mean come on it gets tiring to have the Jedi make the right Jedi decision every single time. It's not realistic. We have Mara act as a mother first, Jedi second.

I like the fact that for once we have a Star Wars series that isn't all Jedi, it actually has normal people. I don't think she has portrayed the Mandalorians any better than she portrayed the Jedi. She portrays them each from their own point of view. So it is obvious that the Mandlorian characters are going to think they're the greatest. And considering the Jedi's current situation it's obvious they aren't going to think they're the greatest, considering they've let a Sith Lord take over the galaxy on their watch.

 

I think that's impossible. The creator always creates the original character, and imposes his/her will upon his/her creation. Ms. Travis may, in your opinion, write a more interesting Mara, but not a better characterization.


Think of it this way: Harrison Ford owns Han Solo. Authors just try to "write" as close as they can to the original characterization.


Besides, how would Ms. Traviss feel if Mr. Allston began to write stories about Fiver and the rest of the bloody clone squad. I would probably enjoy that characterization more, but they may be written out of character.

(Vision of the Future: My favorite Mara. Or maybe Heir to the Empire)

 

I'm not going to say anything about Traviss. Period. And I have my reasons.

 

I have to ask, since when has this ever been the case? More to the point, when since 1999 have the Jedi ever been depicted like that?

EDIT:

Ideal according to what barometer? Jedi ideals? The old Jedi Order's ideals? Or the new Jedi Order's ideals? As far as the New Jedi Order goes, Mara Jade Skywalker was the cream of the crop. Second only perhaps to Luke, Corran and Kyle. The New Jedi Order is pretty much a Jedi Order of Qui-Gon Jinns, that was sort of the point.

As for the family aspect of the story, LOTF seems to almost be trying to prove the old Jedi Order's prohibition on romantic entanglements correct. Instead it should be working to prove the opposite. I mean, Mara as Emperor's Hand on Zahn's watch wasn't nearly as foolish as Mara regressing into Hand-mode by Traviss. That's kind of the point, it's out of character for her to act impulsively like she did. Even with the added passion of protecting her son, she went about things all coolly rational until it came to the stupid idea to take on Jacen herself. That's inconsistent with her characterization earlier of being cool and calculating. I found Sacrifice jarringly off.

 

Did Mara ever strike you as an ideal Jedi? That was about a mother trying to protect her family, not a loveless jedi robot setting out to do the will of the force. Karen is the only EU author who has ever written Mara well, including Zahn. I prefer her portrayals of characters that have minds of their own. Do you all think Walon Vau is a nice character?
[/quote]

I thought Traviss made Mara more human and more real than any other author that wanted to make her uberalles-Jedi-Goddess-in-a-cat-suit-supreme. That is better at anything than anyone and smarter and faster and .........

Traviss made Mara human. A usually cool and collected woman that is blinded by love and overcome with emotions and fear for her kid. He's just a BOY. Love makes you do things that you normally wouldn't.

 

I think Kathy Tyers writes Mara tons better (she wrote Mara really well in Balance Point.

I don't read the LoTF series, but the fact that Ms. Traviss regressed Mara to her Emperor's Hand ways doesn't seem right. It was okay in Destiny's Way - she was investigating the attempts on Cal Omas' life and it was necessary.

 

Other than in Fury when Katarn survives the lightsaber to the chest, or Inferno when Kam shrugs off some blaster bolts, or every piece of Lit written about Yoda and Mace Windu, or when the Jedi toppled the Vong in NJO. I'm not saying they are always wrong, or that they always win but the humanity Traviss gives her Jedi is a welcome change. They do come across as god like far too often for my tastes. If the Jedi were that powerful Yoda's order would have never been wiped out..................they did get gunned down by the clone troops. I think our current Jedi are portrayed as impervious to way too many things.

 

Basically what I was going to say, though I'm still thinking that the Mando sub-plot will end up being important to the series.

I can see both sides of it given that one could take Mace's line that their "ability to use the Force has diminished" as a reason why the Jedi in the EU of other eras tend to be far more powerful. Of course, if they get too godly then there's no real sense of danger other than when they fight Sith Lords, which shouldn't be terribly often in eras other than KotOR and Legacy.

 

Well, we are talking about Kyle kriffing Katarn here...

Windu was far from "god-like" in Shatterpoint, and definitely far from it in ROTS. Those are about the only things where he's ever been all that promininent. Yoda I give leeway for because he's kriffing Yoda and almost 900 years old by the time we get to know him.

I find it amazing that people complain about a lightsaber to the chest for Katarn, with first aid immediately available in the form of bacta-patches and what not. And later a Jedi healer and bacta tanks, plus he's got the Force, but General Grevious and Darth Vader are entirely believable. That's just inconsistent. Vader didn't even have the benefit of immediate first aid, plus he was on the shores of a lava lake. If logic had anything to do with Star Wars in such situations, Vader and Obi-Wan should have died riding those platforms above the lava lake considering how hot that would have been.

If anything, with the exception of Jacen, the Sith have been getting portrayed as "god-like" far too often. Caedus is an idiot Sith, but Palpatine is all-knowing somehow.

 

The fact that only the Jedi can solve the galaxies problems. The fact that Jedi are near immortal and can't be killed, unless it's by another force user, Order 66 being the exception to this. I mean ever single time only a Jedi can save the galaxy, it gets boring and repetitive. Why can't we have some non-force users save the galaxy for once? Mara acted human in Sacrifice, she found out her son was in danger and went to end said danger. That's motherly instinct. I'm honestly getting tired of everyone saying "Mara was so stupid doing that!" Of course it seems stupid to us, we're the readers! We know everything! The characters don't! We have the big picture, they barely even know the small picture. Give them a break, they aren't reading Jacen plotting his evil scheme.

 

When did you get the impression that anyone but a Jedi could actually save the galaxy? From the movies? I don't think so.

That precedent was set by George.

 

So did I, for that matter, but not for the portrayal of the Jedi.

 

I'm actually enjoying this thread as I gave up on LOTF after reading Sacrifice.

It comes from extending the characters too much, they need new elements if they're not going to be boring. Personally, I think Travis is doing all she can as an author. It's the publishers we should be yelling at.

I told you so!