So what I told you was true, FROM a certain Point of View

Ever sense Obi-Wan said those lines back in ROTJ I've been fascinated with that concept. Point of View can apply to anything and it intrigues me everytime I think about it. I wanted to get a discussion going on everything in Star Wars that shows a point of view contrary to what was first believed. I'm not going to point out the obvious ones in my first post, but would rather get into the ones that I like the most.

1. ROTJ - After the Rancor dies, his master and his friend give wailing cries. They are deeply saddened by what's transpired. They loved this beast that was only designed to kill. Why would anybody love this creature? It's one thing I love about Lucas. He shows all the aspects of one event. At first, we are cheering for Luke after a hard fought and earned victory, but then we see the effects of this outcome and show that it doesn't please everyone. Jabba was pissed off that Luke won, but he didn't really care that the Rancor died. These two guys, however, loved him and couldn't have cared more. Its a paradox. I feel happy for Luke yet sorry for this two guys. Two differnt points of view, yet two very understandable ones. The commentary from Lucas during this section is great.

2. TPM - The Parade at the end. Leave it to John Williams to design the most complex aspect of the Star Wars saga, but his music can be broken down and deconstructed and there's still questions to be asked and pondered. Turning the exact same notes played for the Emperor's Theme into one of jubilation is genius. It's the same music told from different instruments (or points of view). To me, this is the best way to understand point of view. I never thought that those notes could be made to make feel happy, but they did. Masterful composition and even more satisfying to think about. In a twisted sort of way, it makes TPM the darkest movie of them all. That movie is all about Darth Sidious plotting, planning and forcing his will onto other people. The music at the end is a trick, but not a lie (like everything Palpatine says). It says that we're all happy. Look what we've done. Isn't this great. But what they don't realize is that everything is going the way Sidious wants. That's deliciously dark and twisted. And it worked too. I was happy for everyone at the end of that movie. I thought that they were doing good, but only later did I realize that those people were misguided and only acting on basic instincts and impluses. They thought that war was the only answer, but it only led to an even greater war. They thought that training the Chosen One was great, only to realize that more attention and proper care were necessary. They thought Palpatine would spearhead a campaign for righteosness throughtout the galaxy, but he was the root of evil. So many points of view in so little time. I'm just in awe of this composition.

That's it for now. Anybody see other POVs in the saga. I know that there out there.

 

i will have to think about it....

outstanding post tho, i have never noticed that about the music at the funeral before, John Williams is God, i Think the score during the darth maul/Qui-gon/Obi fite is his best work in the saga =)

 

This probably applies more to the PT as far as context goes, but all the same I'll make a minute connection.

Slave Anakin to Jedi Anakin point of view.

Anakin, having been raised for most of his childhood in slavery probably would have had some deep rooted resentment for any type of hierarchical arrangement that had a class meant only to serve and do no more beyond what they're asked.

Once released from Slavery, and being told that he would be trained as a Jedi, I imagine, that Anakin, with all his romantic ideas of what being a Jedi must have been like probably would have felt that he could do anything to serve the greater cause.

However once the reality of training to become a Jedi became oppressive to him (probably not unlike facing the demands of being a subservient slave/servant type) his desire for power grew outside of what he was taught to need to achieve. Not only desire for power, but the desire to do more for what he thought to be the greater good. Hence taking the quick and easy path that Palpatine offered.

Interesting how such noble desires could have such dire consequences, as in the OT Vader was a slave all the same.

 

Like many of the SW fans that started with the OT and since seen the PT there have been numerous links from the OT end of the saga that fit better now with the PT end of the saga all told out.

When I first saw ROTJ and heard Obi-Wan tell Luke the "from a certain point of view" comment,I like Luke thought "what a crock" and then of course it made more sense as time went on.

Then in TPM hearing Qui-Gon correct Obi-Wan on his comment about Anakin being dangerous as being truth I realised how Obi-Wan came to learn that perspective on all matters.

As posted above,Lucas does weave in and out small & large themes and ironies in his storytelling.

 

Excellent thread!

I really liked what you had to say about the music at the end of TPM representing the idea of "points of view" ........... or, as Qui Gon says, one's focus determining one's reality.

There is another great example of this in TPM. It's when Qui Gon goes up against the Council. Here is where we see all the alternate points of view, communicated with a single line of dialogue, or even a look. There's Mace, who thinks the Sith could not have returned without the Jedi knowing, there's Yoda, who's more pensive on the issue ("Hard to see, the Dark Side is"), and there's Qui Gon, who claims he doesn't presume, but with Yoda's correction ("Ah, but you do! Revealed, your opinion is!") showing that he does.

There is a famous piece of subversion at the end of ANH. It's the shot of the awards ceremony showing Han, Luke and Chewie walking down the massive aisle, flanked by members / soldiers of the Rebellion. This is a deliberate riff on an identical shot / composition in Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph Of The Will". Given the overt fascist overtones burned into every inch of every frame of celluloid in that film, it seems strange for Lucas to just reference it as a joke or in grateful homage (though maybe that's exactly what he did); rather, I think Lucas might have been trying to visually link the Rebellion with the Empire, subtly suggesting that they are two sides of the same coin. This idea is finally gilded by Palpatine, some three decades later, in ROTS: "The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way..." One can cross over into the other, as we see with the case of Anakin. It can be argued that giving people medals for destroying a space station with hundreds / thousands / millions of lives is not the most morally sound thing to do, and in the case of a Jedi, which itself is more a concept that everyone should strive to live up to (not just gifted people like Anakin and Luke), one should not be decorated for anything, much less destroying life / blighting the Force.

 

What everyone is saying in this thread is true... from a certain point of view.

 

That's the most justified cop-out I've ever seen.

 

... from a certain point of view

The POV debate is a classic one. I never bought Obi-wan's line in ROTJ about POV (that the truth is POV dependant), and I found it ironic that Obi-wan would debunk his own comment in ROTS. When Anakin stated that the Jedi were evil from his POV, Obi-wan says that he was lost -- meaning personal perspective is meaningless in the face of the reality. I agree with ROTS Obi-wan, but not ROTJ Obi-wan.

Of course, the whole reason Obi-wan brought up the POV argument in ROTJ is because what he said was true -- until GL decided to make ESB and the Saga as oppose to wrapping everything up with Splinter. So, really what Obi-wan said was true, from a certain point of view, after all.

 

Cryo, I was unaware of the film reference in ANH you spoke of. But now that I think about it, it puts a whole new spin on that scene. Great catch.

 

That also rings true somewhat from the end of ROTS and in the middle of ANH. After Obiwan strikes down Anakin, he picks up Anakins lightsaber and walks off, Anakin did not give it to him, nor did he ever make any mention of passing it along. However when Luke is at Obiwans hut, he gives Luke Anakins lightsaber and tells him that his father wanted him to have this when he was old enough. Although it was never stated by Anakin, it could be true from a certain point of view, because Anakin had fond dreams of raising his children with padme to become strong with the force, and more than likely would have had intentions of him receiving his lightsaber. Maybe thats just me thinking too much, but none the less, something to think about.

 

I like how in the title of this thread, the word 'from' is typed all in caps so it reflectes it's announciation the way Alec Guiness said it in ROTJ. Not that it makes any grammatical sense, nor that the word 'from' should be the one over-announcicated; but it's the way Obi said it, so that's the way it got typed. Tee-hee.

 

I was thinking about this more and realized that I wasn't asking the larger question. Why are certain points of views helpful to people as learners? Why does telling Luke that Darth Vader killed and murdered your father better than saying Darth Vader is your father? Or is it worse? I think those are perhaps more interesting questions on this topic, although I'd love to see more responses on the original question. Why is distorting the truth to the way you see as the best fit a good thing? Or is it a bad thing? I think Lucas is trying to say to us that at certain points in time, it is a good thing. But why? What would Luke's reaction have been if Obi-Wan would have come right out and said in A New Hope, Vader is your father? Could Luke have handled it? Would he have even thought of or dreamt to become a Jedi and rise up against his father? Methinks not so. He would have struggled with his new found knowledge and probably succumbed to the Dark Side and joined his father to rule the galaxy. He would have been mad, that's for sure and that's never a good thing for a Jedi. But distorting the truth, at least in principle to me, is wrong. That's what some commanders-in-cheif have done (I'm not going there, but I had to say it) and it wasn't right. In fact, in the real world I can't see where it has ever been right, either in personal relationships or historical issues. Unlike other Star Wars themes, this one seems to not be a good ideal in the real world. Am I wrong? Somebody please show me light because I already don't trust the Jedi (as you may know if you've read my posts).

In summary my new question to you is:

1. In ANH when Obi tells Luke that Darth Vader killed and murdered his father, was that a morally good thing to do by Obi-Wan in both the Star Wars universe and the real world?

 

I think its all about age. When i was younger it was easy for me to see things in black and white. But as i get older, it has a tendancy to be more about what side of the fence i am standing on, and who is talking in my ear.

In Obi's fight in ROTS(as mentioned in above post)he fails to acknowledge Anakins comment on POV. He then proceeds to tell Anakin that "only a sith deals in absolutes". This comment is a paradox, as it is quite an absolute statement. Here Obi is young, and has his morality blinders on if you will. However the older more experienced Obi seems to have embraced the idea of objectivity. He now appears to have a much broader view than he did in ROTS, and his teaching Luke about POV seems to reflect a lesson learned.

Having made these observations, i dont believe morality is an issue for Obi at the point when he meets Luke.