Son Of The Suns = The Chosen One?

First off, this may not belong here but, it deals with both trilogies so I'll post it in Saga, feel free to movie if necessary.

I noticed in Wookieepedia that Anakin is listed as the Son Of The Suns. I personally think that there's no evidence that the Chosen One is the Son of the Suns and in fact far more evidence that Luke is the Son Of The Suns if anyone is.

The Prophecy goes

"? and in the time of greatest despair,
there shall come a savior,
and he shall be known as:
THE SON OF THE SUNS."
? Journal of the Whills, 3:127

My reasons are thus 1. Anakin was born in a time of peace, not "A Time of Greatest Despair" If anyone in the series is born during such a time, it's Luke and Leia given that they're born right after/during the Great Purge, after the establishment of the Empire, the dominance of the Sith, the corruption of the Chosen One, the death of Mace Windu, and the beginning of "The Dark Times."

2. Anakin's not a savior. Anakin's many things but overall he's not a savior. For most of his life Anakin Skywalker is the monsterous Sith known as Darth Vader and is responsible for the destruction of the Jedi, enslavement of many races, allows a planet to be destroyed, tortures his own daughter, and the extinction and near extinction of multiple races. The use of savior could also refer to the fact that Luke's Anakin's savior and redeems him.

3. The fact that when the Prophecy was written by Lucas in 1977 it could only have referred to Luke.

Now, if you accept the premise that Luke is the Son of the Suns(or just wish to operate on it for this thought) would that mean that the Chosen One was destined to fall as he needed to fall in order for the Darkest times to be established so that the Son Of The Suns can act as a savior.

 

1. it really depends on where despair begins for you. it's a point, it seems, though.

2. i think it depends on how you define saviour. or else you start at the end. you don't start with the little kid. maybe you reconsider that point.

3. i think that's really just nitpicky and not based on the movies.

done, sir

 

"? and in the time of greatest despair,
there shall come a savior,
and he shall be known as:
THE SON OF THE SUNS."
? Journal of the Whills, 3:127

This was the original wording of the prophecy. What the PT version ended up being is anyone's guess. Likely it was changed to match more what we saw in the PT.

 

I've always believed that the "Son of the Suns" was Anakin. A name like that makes sense for someone who had no real father. As for "greatest despair"... Well, the last of the Jedi was about to be killed by The Emperor. In that most severe of situations, Anakin emerged as the "savior", so the prophecy was fulfilled.

 

1. True, I just would catagorize the time of the Empire as the time of greatest despair in the Saga if any.

2. True, you could start from the redemption of Vader. It may be my admitted Light Side bias that makes me see Anakin as less of a savior overall.

3.Oh, three is very nitpicky for sure

It very well could have been changed, I just find it interesting that the Son of the Suns is at least still fanon if not canon.

True, and really my interpretation of the time of greatest despair he comes from being his birth is a bit of an assumption on my part. It would definitely make sense for him given that he has no father but, if anyone would be a "Son of Tatooine" in any form it would be Luke given that while neither Anakin or Luke were born on Tatooine, Luke spends around twice as much time there as Anakin does.

 

Anakin is born into bondage. To the slaves of the galaxy is it not "a time of greatest dispair,"?
Are the people of Naboo not experiencing despair in TPM?
Are The Clone Wars not a time of great despair?

The people brought the Empire upon themselves. There is no proof in the movies that Vader is responsible for the extinction and near extinction of multiple races. Tarkin was responsible for the destruction of Alderaan not Vader. All Vader did was destroy a threat to the Republic called the Jedi Order. Did the Jedi not attempt to kill the elected leader of the Republic? Did the Jedi not attempt to take control of an elected governmental body? Did the Jedi not stage a military coup against the Galactic Republic and its Chancellor? Vader is not in charge of the Empire. All Vader is in charge of is keeping order in the Empire. Is Vader ever seen killing entire races of people? All Vader is ever seen doing is hunting down those who are attempting to topple his government. A government that was elected by the people. Was there not a thunderous applause by the senators when Palpatine ushered in the first Galactic Empire?

To the best of my knowledge the prophecy first appeared in this draft that is dated two years prior to 1977: ADVENTURES OF THE STARKILLER (episode one) "The Star Wars"

If the original movie was called Episode 1 then I would accept that, however, it's not and Luke is not the savior. The savior is Anakin Skywalker and Luke is the catalyst that was destined to bring the savior back to the light once the people learned the lesson of being indifferent towards the suffering of others.

The story seemed to be evolving even when the original was being filmed, however, by 1979 the story belonged to Anakin. That's why Episode IV was added to the crawler in 1979, and by 1980 Lucas made it clear that Episodes I, II, and III would be produced before VII, VIII, and IX.

Even The Son of Suns evolved into The Son of Suns and Moons. That's why there's a setting sun and wanning crescent moon behind Anakin when he is first presented to the Jedi Council.

 

They are times of despair but they are nothing compared to a time when the galaxy is being ruled by a tyrant who doesn't blink an eye at the extinction of a species(EU) or the destruction of a planet.

Vader was responsible for the extinction of races in the EU so I apologize for not labeling that as such. Vader's responsible for the destruction of Alderaan in that he just stood by and allowed Tarkin to destroy it. The Jedi attempted to kill the Sith Lord who was subverting the democratic process saying they were in the wrong for the assassination of Palpatine is like saying assassinating Hitler would have been wrong due to his being democratically elected given that both were elected and turned their respective democracies into dictatorships that committed horrible atrocities. The fact that the people of the galaxy were foolish enough to allow themselves to be manipulated by a Sith Lord in no way gives Vader the moral highground.

You're right on this one, the year I had was off.

 

Sure you have. Suns and Moons are everywhere in the saga.
When Anakin is presented to the Jedi Council there is a setting sun to his right and a wanning crescent moon to his left. When Anakin is looking down upon the Tusken bivouac there are three wanning gibbous moons aligned in the Tatooine sky. A solar eclipse is occuring while Obi-Wan and Anakin duel. There are twin full moons in the Coruscant sky after Anakin kills Sidious.

It was the world that allowed Hitler to rise to power when the world turned its back on the starving people of Germany. Evil will never be vanquished, however, it can be kept in check. There can be checks and balances, but if the good people do nothing then the balance is lost, and evil will reign.

By allowing their government to become corrupted and looking the other way when gangsters and greedy corporations take control of entire planets, the people just invited someone like Palpatine to come on in and nurture the evil that was already in place. By detaching themselves from emotions the Jedi became empty shells that could no longer distinguish right from wrong. That's why when they found a planet of slaves ruled by gangsters they didn't do the right thing and free the planet from the gangsters. That's why when they found an army of cloned slaves they took ownership of them instead of freeing them. That's why they brainwash children from birth to secure their numbers.

All Anakin did was give the people of the Republic what they wanted. They wanted Palpatine, they wanted the Empire. It was not the right of the Jedi to take away the people's elected official. It was not the right of the Jedi to take control of the Galactic Senate. In the wanning days of the Republic, the Jedi were the military leaders of the Republic. Were they not? The U.S. military does not have the right to overthrow the U.S. government. Does it?

Lucas is just playing a head game. You ever watch Willow? Lucas started writing the outline for Willow about the same time he wrote the outline for Star Wars.

The birthmark on Elora Danan's arm signified that she is the child of prophecy, the daughter of the Sun and Moon, and future empress of all kingdoms. Indeed, Tir Asleen, Galladoorn, Nockmaar and Cashmere all have legends, oracles and divinations that foretold of a powerful child who will appear and unite and govern them.--starwars.com

 

On point one, just because there are Suns and Moons doesn't mean that the Prophecy has shifted into Son Of The Sun and Moon.


It was the world that allowed Hitler to rise to power when the world turned its back on the starving people of Germany. Evil will never be vanquished, however, it can be kept in check. There can be checks and balances, but if the good people do nothing then the balance is lost, and evil will reign.

Evil will win when Good Men do nothing I agree. However it doesn't make the evil any more justified than it would be without the support of the frightened and apathetic masses.

By allowing their government to become corrupted and looking the other way when gangsters and greedy corporations take control of entire planets, the people just invited someone like Palpatine to come on in and nurture the evil that was already in place. By detaching themselves from emotions the Jedi became empty shells that could no longer distinguish right from wrong. That's why when they found a planet of slaves ruled by gangsters they didn't do the right thing and free the planet from the gangsters. That's why when they found an army of cloned slaves they took ownership of them instead of freeing them. That's why they brainwash children from birth to secure their numbers.

The people did leave the situation open for someone like Palpatine but, it doesn't excuse the fact that he's a monster who will allow the destruction of planets to go on unhindered. The Jedi were in control of their emotions b

 

I never said evil was justified. You're the one who says evil is justified and I'll show you where you say that later on. All I ever said was that Anakin was only defending his elected government and its leader from enemies both foreign and domestic.

But that's what the people wanted. The people gave Palpatine the title of Emperor. Remember the thunderous applause coming from the Galactic Senate when Palpatine declared the Empire open for business?

Luke is nothing like the PT Jedi at the end of ROTJ. Luke throws down his weapon whereas Mace and Yoda were going to kill Palpatine. Mace was going to kill Palpatine whereas Luke backed away from Vader once Vader was disarmed.

There was a ten year gap in between TPM and AOTC. They couldn't send a few Jedi to arrest Jabba. It only took Luke and Leia to bring down Jabba, but the Jedi couldn't spare a couple Jedi?

That is where you say evil is justified.

I'm not sure where you're from, but training children from birth to be warriors isn't practiced where I'm from.

And the Jedi were not responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of clones? Why would Jedi that are so noble and serve a higher power want to be part of growing sentient beings that have had their free will taken from them and made to partake in war that isn't even of their making?

There are many soldiers in the U.S. armed forces that believe by protecting the lives of U.S. citizens they are serving a higher cause. The Jedi stopped serving a higher power before we first meet them in TPM, only Qui-Gon still served a higher power. If the Jedi truly served a higher power, they would have not stood for a Republic that grows people for the singular purpose of sending those grown people into harm's way.

Luke didn't appear to agree with destroying the Sith no matter what.

[quote=Master_Starwalk

 

He is defending his governmental leader but, would that really be in the realm of a Prophecy?

 

Anakin is a child of a prophecy. That much we know. We know he was conceived without father. A child being conceived by a higher power is a motif that can be found throughout many stories. Some of these stories tend to be stories that are incorporated into religions that are still being practiced and religions that are no longer practiced and are refered to as myths. So if Lucas is borrowing from other stories then lets just say he's borrowed the motif of prophetic visions and dreams too. So what is the source of these prophetic visions and dreams? The Force? What is the Force? Is it divine or is it just an energy field created by all living things or is it both. Obviously it's an energy field created by all living things, but is it also divine? How could the Jedi know if it's divine or not. They didn't even know a Sith Lord was standing five feet away from them so you're telling me they know the secret of life. The Jedi are no more privy to the secret of life than we here in the real world are. So if the Jedi do not understand divinty then that means it's a mystery. It's a mystery as to why these characters are having prophetic visions and dreams. It's a mystery as to why Anakin was conceived without father. So why do Jedi refer to the Force as having a will of its own. Because just like us here in the real world, the Jedi and others in the Star Wars galaxy have created a contruct for divinity.

I put the Force into the movie in order to try to awaken a certain kind of spirituality in young people--more a belief in God than a belief in any particular religious system. I wanted to make it so that young people would begin to ask questions about the mystery. Not having enough interest in the mysteries of life to ask the question, "Is there a God or is there not a God?"--that is for me the worst thing that can happen. I think you should have an opinion about that. Or you should be saying, "I'm looking. I'm very curious about this, and I am going to continue to look until I can find an answer, and if I can't find an answer, then I'll die trying." I think it's important to have a belief system and to have faith.

I think there is a God. No question. What that God is or what we know about that God, I'm not sure. The one thing I know about life and about the human race is that we've always tried to construct some kind of context for the unknown. Even the cavemen thought they had it figured out. I would say that cavemen understood on a scale of about 1. Now we've made it up to about 5. The only thing that most people don't realize is the scale goes to 1 million.--George Lucas

So what about this prophecy and these dreams and visions and this child that was conceived without father? A prophecy is divine will and if a prophecy comes to pass then there is something divine looking down upon the mortals. If a child is conceieved without a mortal father then something divine created that child. In some of our stories, dreams and visions are given to mortals by a higher power.

So if a higher power is giving Anakin, Luke, and Palpatine these dreams and visions then perhaps a higher power guided Anakin to the darkside, guided Palpatine to Mustafar to save Vader, and guided Luke to Bespin to bring Anakin back to the light.

So to what greater purpose would Anakin serve as Darth Vader?

Vader would insure that Palpatine's reign of tyranny would exist. A reign of tyranny that the people brought upon themselves, because be careful what you wish for. The Jedi were no longer righteous. They had lost their way. It was not the place of an unrightenous people to overthrow Palpatine, it was the place of righteous people that are called the Rebel Alliance. Anakin was put into play as Vader so that through the darkness, the people would find their way back to the light. The people would be enslaved by the very slaves that they enslaved.


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A really good debate. Although, Ironclad, I must say I think it is simplifying the Saga immensly by assuming evrything that happens is due to a higher power wanted it to be so.

Anakin did wrong by turning to the Darkside and slaughtering children, of this there can be no doubt. What had the children done? They didn't try to overthrow the elected leader of the Republic did they?

Also the fact the Senate cheered Sidious when they did not know the truth of the war doesn't mean they deserved his oppresion.

The dreams Anakin received were trying to steer him from the Darkside, as was his vision on Nelvaan, not trying to convince him to join the Darkside. Anakin could've killed Sidious in ROTS and stopped the horror there. The fact he din't meant he & the Galaxy had to suffer for a couple of decades.

IMO the Prophecy was correct and was about Anakin. The Sith threw the Force out of balance by "playing God" to maipulate and create life. The life they created (Anakin) would eventually destroy them, restoring balance to the Force. The fact he first joined them (the Sith) meant he also had to destroy himself.

There is also no proof the sun of the sons is the same thing as the Prophecy, and lets not forget it is never mentioned onscreen.

 

That's a common misperception about Hitler but it isn't true. Hitler ran for President of the German Republic and LOST. He was however already Chancellor (roughly equivalent to our Speaker of the House, and note the re-use of the term by Lucas) and after losing the election used that position to grant himself more and more power (remember, even in our system Congress writes the laws) until the point where the executive branch was exposed as weak quizzlings while the Chancellor grew in power to fill the vaccuum. He started the National Socialist (Nazi) party to counter the weakness of the republic (analogous to the clones in GFFA).

I'm sure Lucas once wanted to mimmick this exact path to power but simplified it for the films... Plus, in GFFA, there never really was an executive branch to speak of.

 

If you want to believe the Sith created Anakin then that's wonderful, but I don't so we'll end this here.

 

DARTHIRONCLAD your posts are intelligent and well written.

I agree with you completely. "The Chosen One", and "The Son Of The Suns" are one person: Anakin. The prophecy was written about Anakin, not "the Son" of The Chosen One.
End of Story.

Also, I agree with you that the Sith did not create Anakin.
Great posts!

 

i think my confusion with you not seeing them as corrupt stems from not knowing how they're *not* corrupted.

i still don't see the difficulty of accepting that the clone army was clearly a violation of free will and human rights and all that stuff. what's so difficult? the ends justify the means? the clones were there anyway, how could the poor jedi possibly refuse it? there was a war going on? etc etc.

and wouldn't you say that it's exactly the kind of criticism you tend to level at the anakin character by saying, oh, but he should have refused to turn to the dark side? oh, but he shouldn't have given in to his fear?

why, of course.

you know, who manages? luke. luke gets out of that cycle of, oh, but i couldn't refuse it, it was being presented to me on a silver platter. i could have killed my own dad and given in to all my hatred but at that given time i deescalated the conflict within and without me.

the first time in this saga that anyone gets that done.

 

I do view Luke as a better Jedi than the Prequel Ones, I just don't see them as corrupt. I do level the ends justifying the means at the Sith often as you know better than most. I didn't mean to try to get across that was my defense of the Jedi and if that's what it seemed like I apologize. I mean that the Clones weren't the Jedi's army, they were the Repbulic's. The Jedi as servants of the Republic as a proxy for their defense of civilization were going to fight the Sith, and fighting the Sith meant that they would end up in the war. The Clones would be fielded in the war even if the Jedi refused to fight. It's really that while many seem to view the Jedi as the owners of the Clone army, I view the Republic as the owners of it. The Jedi were going to have to fight with whatever troops are fielded by the Chancellor of the Republic and if those are Clones then they will have to fight alongside the Clones and the most they can do which they did, is to treat them like they would any other soldier in a war. The Jedi, I honestly don't think fought alongside the Clones because it was convienient, I think they fought alongside the Clones because they would fight for the Republic, and that meant fighting alongside Clones.

 

Not sure what exactly it is you are trying to "end" but just because you don't agree with a point -which has pretty much been confirmed in the Star Wars Chronology - doesn't mean you can end a debate my friend.

"you're not all powerful"

 

The Force is an energy field created by all living things. Why would a couple Sith unbalance the Force? What makes you think the Force is out of balance because of the existance of the Sith? Wouldn't the Force have always been unbalanced since there were always a couple Sith out there?

I don't attempt to discredit the "Sith created Anakin" interpretation because I appreciate their interpretation. That is why I wanted to end any further discussion with Darth Wolvo.

 

Lucas says the Force is brought back into balance with the destruction of Sidious and Vader

"Which brings us to films 4, 5 and 6, where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
--George Lucas

Oh, I misinterprited that part, apologies

 

no need to apologize, starwalker. i'm just trying to poke holes into your theory

see, i think it's a major double standard to say when jedi use someone or something to justify some means it's alright. now i don't think you said that.
for me it's unclear if the jedi really actually are servants of the republic or servants to their own purposes. it seems to me, however, that they have their own agenda of how things ought to be done and are therefore not reliable or neutral. also they don't fight the sith with that clone army, they fight the trade fed which IMO is a political act (which gets no pondering whatsoever) and not a religious. (fighting the sith is to me more of a religious issue) and either way i simply expect an organization of that age and scale to consider other options, full stop.

your thread is about doubting anakin as the chosen one, though, it's getting lost in all these side issues, though. in a weird way i think that anyone could have done it, luke for example, but it seems that it was a special chain of events leading there, to a point that luke even existed. so if it's all destiny, i wonder, there is no certainty to the chosen one label, it could be either of them but it doesn't really matter as it's them together doing what has to be done, anakin still shouldering most of it, luke guiding him to a point that he can realize it himself.

 

My point is just this: Anakin is the chosen one and the sun of the suns prophecy was the original title of the chosen one prophecy in 1975. The story was always evolving even right up until ROTS. The saga was a living story up until 2005. I have my doubts whether Darth Vader was the sun of suns in 1975, but that is beside the point. By 1979 the saga became Darth Vader's story, the story of the chosen one, however, the story just dosn't have one central figure. Luke, Obi-Wan, Padme, and Palpatine are all important characters, however, their stories do not encompass the entire saga like Anakin's does. Ultimately in my eyes, the story is really about the corruption of the people of the galaxy and their redemption and Luke is the redemption of the Jedi Order. The thing is I can't explain my interpretation without going into great detail because many fans turn a blind eye or make excuses for the PT Jedi, however, there is no excuse for them. The PT Jedi above all other beings in the galaxy should have known the difference between right and wrong, however, it is my belief that their morality became clouded when they denounced their emotions. If a person is without emotion then they become an empty shell that doesn't care one way or another.

 

The Jedi don't fight the Sith directly with the Clone Army no, but they fight the Confederacy which is serving the Sith(admittedly so are the Clones but, the Jedi of course don't know this yet.) and the Jedi respond by leading whatever army the Republic fields(in this case Clones) against the army being fielded by the Sith. I do agree that the Clone Wars for most of the galaxy was a purely political conflict, however with the Jedi and the Sith whatever the current war is, really is completely secondary to the battle between Jedi and Sith that has been going on for millenia. I tend to view the battle between Jedi and Sith as an ethical conflictg given that I don't view their conflict as being over only religious issues as the Jedi don't start battle with the Gungans for believing in gods, they only fight the Sith who are dedicated to gaining power, regardless of the cost to the galaxy and throw it out of balance.

As far as Anakin, I'm not meaning to say that Anakin's not the Chosen One at all. He's in my mind clearly the Chosen One to bring balance to the Force. I just am wondering if the Son of the Suns Prophecy is the same prophecy as that of the Chosen One or another one that sort of acts as a back up measure by the Force in case Anakin fails to do it on his own as he in my opinion did in RotS, admittedly in RotS the reason Anakin did is an incredibly human one and shows really just