Supreme Power vs. the Ultimates

[image=http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/SUPOWER008_0304.jpg] vs. [image=http://marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/1204/ULTIMATES_V2_1.jpg]

I considered creating separate threads here, but I decided on making this just one. For one thing, it allows for these two series to be compared directly as well as on their own. Secondly, these comics are very similar in more than one respect. Thirdly, I?m hoping that putting both in the same thread will increase traffic, and since they?re generally out on different weeks the thread will hopefully stay alive between releases.

Both are comic series put out by Marvel, aimed at a mature audience. Supreme Power is a re-imagining of the Justice league of America, while the Ultimates is a re-imagining of the Avengers. Supreme Power has had nudity, profanity, racism, prostitutes, and some rather graphically violent battle scenes. The Ultimates has cannibalism and a woman attracted to it, homosexuality, adultery, spousal abuse, incest, and a fair amount of political baggage with sympathetic characters on both sides of the line.

Both are fantastic, story and art wise. Both can be read on their own. There?s no need to pick up any other comics to get these stories. There are two trade paperbacks of each series released so far (the Ultimates can also be picked up in hardcover I believe), and each has just two or three issues so far that are not in trades. Michael J. Straczynski (Babylon 5) writes Supreme Power, while Mark Millar writes the Ultimates.

So, to try to kick-start discussion, I?ll ask a question: are they moving too slowly? So far, the Ultimates has covered one rampaging person of mass destruction, and one alien invasion, while the current plotline has had some terrorists and possibly an irate Norse god. Meanwhile, Supreme Power has had only two large-scale super-powered battles. Does the emphasis on how persons of mass destruction think and feel and act rather than how they fight help or hinder the series? Is there too much character building, or is the level of violence fine as it is?

 

I've heard a little about these, but very little. They sound interesting, and if JMS is writing one line, it's gotta be good.

 

I have been reading the Ultimates. And TPB #2 is the best overall TPB I think I've every read. From the story to the art to the characters to the dialouge to the action. Even the one-liners that are often cheesey seem perfect. Everything feels right. I've been wondering if the series was dropped because I haven't seen anything from it in awhile.

The Ultimates has cannibalism and a woman attracted to it,

I wouldn't exactly call the Hulk eating people "cannibalism" or say Betty Ross is attracted to it. She is still in love with Bruce Banner despite his change.

So, to try to kick-start discussion, I?ll ask a question: are they moving too slowly?

I don't think so. I don't want them to zip through. If the series lasts I don't want them to run out of steam because they used all the best ideas right off the bat and went to fast.

So far, the Ultimates has covered one rampaging person of mass destruction, and one alien invasion, while the current plotline has had some terrorists and possibly an irate Norse god.

I like the way they don't ram the Norse god stuff down your throat. I don't like it and the way it has been written so far there it can be seen 2 ways. Either Thor is a Norse god or he is just a crazy guy with a hammer and lots of powers.

Does the emphasis on how persons of mass destruction think and feel and act rather than how they fight help or hinder the series? Is there too much character building, or is the level of violence fine as it is?

I think things are fine the way they are. The Ultimates have been violent without being over-the-top violent. The character building is needed if the series will last. Because who wants to read a series about a bunch of characters you don't care about? I sure don't.

Another cool thing about the Ultimates is that it fits with the rest of the Ultimate universe quite well. I'm working on a timeline right now to meld all the series together.

Also if you are into the Ultimates Ultimate Spiderman #9 and Ultimate X-men #5 are crossover TPBs. They focus about equally on the Ultimates and the X-men/Spiderman and are both very good.

 

I've been wondering if the series was dropped because I haven't seen anything from it in awhile.

Nope. It?s one of the best selling comics out there. However, Mark Miller doesn?t want it to be a monthly comic. He wants to release the storylines as 12-13 issue maxiseries. One of the side benefits to this approach is that he can get the same artist, Bryan Hitch, for every issue without needing anyone to do fill-in art. And it means that he?s telling these stories as he wants to tell them, rather than trying to fill monthly slots. Ultimates 2 has started up, and issue #3 is released today, featuring the trial of the Hulk.



I don't think so. I don't want them to zip through. If the series lasts I don't want them to run out of steam because they used all the best ideas right off the bat and went to fast.

See what I said above. Miller is pacing himself, telling stories at the rate he feels comfortable.


I wouldn't exactly call the Hulk eating people "cannibalism" or say Betty Ross is attracted to it. She is still in love with Bruce Banner despite his change.

Miller called the Hulk a ?cannibalistic sex-fiend.? As for Betty, she had broken up with Banner and was very much past him until he became the Hulk again. Banner is talking about disgusted he is that he, a vegetarian for 15 years, ate a man. And it turns out that as soon as he started talking about eating a person Betty stopped paying attention to what he was saying. "Sorry, Bruce. I was just thinking about those satellite pics of you wolfing down that man's intestines like some kind of animal and? well, do you think that Fury would let you and I have some kind of conjugal visit anytime soon?" I don?t think that Betty cares too much about Banner; she?s got a crush on the Hulk.


I like the way they don't ram the Norse god stuff down your throat. I don't like it and the way it has been written so far there it can be seen 2 ways. Either Thor is a Norse god or he is just a crazy guy with a hammer and lots of powers.

I actually do like how it has been presented. Something that I haven?t seen covered in the normal Marvel Universe is what the rest of the world thinks of a Norse God running around. Heck, what does the Pope think? Having other gods running around must be a troublesome idea to people in other religions ? especially if he?s telling the truth. It comes down to faith. Like he said to the Captain, the Captain goes to church, and what Thor says is no stranger. Do you believe that he?s a god or not? I think that not having an omniscient narrator say ?yes, he is an honest-to-god god is a smart decision. By the by, I do believe that he?s a god.


Also if you are into the Ultimates Ultimate Spiderman #9 and Ultimate X-men #5 are crossover TPBs. They focus about equally on the Ultimates and the X-men/Spiderman and are both very good.

I don?t agree. I thought that the Ultimate Spider-Man crossover was just terrible, art and story wise both. There were a few good moments with Sharon Carter at the beginning, a few cute moments involving Aunt May at the end, but that?s the sum total of the redeeming values of the Ultimate Spider-Man story. The Ultimate War plotline was a bit better, but not by too much. Ultimate War was just an excuse to pit the X-Men against the Ultimates in a giant throw-down. Once again, there were a few good moments ? Wolverine vs. Iron Man, Captain America vs. Wolverine, Colossus vs. Thor and Hawkeye (especially how that fight ended), but overall it just didn?t satisfy.

If you?re going to look for Ultimates stories outside the Ultimates, my suggestion is to read Ultimate Nightmare, which is the stand-alone first part of what will be a trilogy of Ultimate crossovers. It features Captain America, Nick Fury, Black Widow, the Falcon, Wolverine, Colossus, and Jean Grey. After Ultimate Nightmare, we get Ultimate Secret, which will be the Ultimates and the Fantastic Four. And after that, in the third part? rumor is Galactus.

 

It's out in TPB right? I'll have to check it out.

 

Both have released two trades so far. The Ultimates is also available as a hardcover I think. As of today, both have released 15 issues in total so far, so there isn't a whole lot to catch up on in either case.

 

Those interested in Supreme Power can't overlook one of the first "mature" series Marvel published. The original Squadron Supreme maxi-series (and TPB) was written by Mark Gruenwald, and published back in 1985.

Although quite tame compared to today's "mature" label, the original Squadron Supreme series is generally considered to be the pre-Watchman, Watchman, and it's the series which paved the way for those follow-on titles. I think the story still stands up fairly well.

If someone enjoys Supreme Power, they may be interested in reading about this bit of historical back-story.

 

I'll have to take a look into this next time I'm at the bookstore.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how closely Supreme Power follows Squadron Supreme. If it does follow it closely, people with no sense of history in comics are going to see it as copying the Watchmen, the Authority, and Identity Crisis. And probably the Ultimate lines as well for good measure. The original Squadron Supreme wasn?t all that great in terms of delivery, but the ideas it had before most everyone are still cropping up today on a regular basis.

 

I don?t think that Betty cares too much about Banner; she?s got a crush on the Hulk.

I don't see it that way. But you might be right.

I actually do like how it has been presented. Something that I haven?t seen covered in the normal Marvel Universe is what the rest of the world thinks of a Norse God running around. Heck, what does the Pope think? Having other gods running around must be a troublesome idea to people in other religions ? especially if he?s telling the truth. It comes down to faith. Like he said to the Captain, the Captain goes to church, and what Thor says is no stranger. Do you believe that he?s a god or not? I think that not having an omniscient narrator say ?yes, he is an honest-to-god god is a smart decision. By the by, I do believe that he?s a god.

I agree. I liked how they had Thor and Black Widow near the end of TPB 2.

I don?t agree. I thought that the Ultimate Spider-Man crossover was just terrible, art and story wise both. There were a few good moments with Sharon Carter at the beginning, a few cute moments involving Aunt May at the end, but that?s the sum total of the redeeming values of the Ultimate Spider-Man story.

There were some good moments regarding Captain America in the middle. How he was looking at the Green Goblin and the others who might not have come into existance if not for his experiment working.

The Ultimate War plotline was a bit better, but not by too much. Ultimate War was just an excuse to pit the X-Men against the Ultimates in a giant throw-down. Once again, there were a few good moments ? Wolverine vs. Iron Man, Captain America vs. Wolverine, Colossus vs. Thor and Hawkeye (especially how that fight ended), but overall it just didn?t satisfy.

It ties in with the Ultimate X-men line much better. If you read the first 4 UX and then Ultimate War it is much better.

 

It ties in with the Ultimate X-men line much better. If you read the first 4 UX and then Ultimate War it is much better.

I've read first four X-Men trades, and own two of them. I still don't care much for Ultimate War beyond the "hey, super hero smackdown" level.

 

Man...I wish I could still read The Ultimates...but I dont have any money, I havent been able to get a hold of any of volume 2...


Anyone want to contribute to the "Get-IJG-Comic-Books" Fund?

 

I looked at the Ultimates vol 1. yesterday. I will probably pick it up next week. Looks interesting. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

I've read first four X-Men trades, and own two of them. I still don't care much for Ultimate War beyond the "hey, super hero smackdown" level.

I don't care for the art or the short length. But the story was strong and the premise made sense. It set up the rest of the Ultimate X-men series too. It is set after Homeland Security and I'll have to see how it ties into the rest of the Ultimates series.

 

I picked up The Ultimates today. Pretty good. I liked the writing and the art. Now I need to find the second one.

In line with the original post, I like the fact that not every issue involves saving the world from (insert bad guy here) who is wanting (insert dastardly plot).

That always bothered me when I was collecting. You would have an entire issue devoted to defeating a certain bad guy and then you had to do it all over again the next month.

 

I like supreme power a lot. There is also 6 issue spin off to featuring one of the side characters. The spin off is called doctor spectrum. I like it. The ultimates sounds pretty cool. I'll have to check it out.

 

I'm kind of torn. I think they're both good books, albeit, flawed. SP is kind of more of a dirtyied up kid's book (this is how I view the MAX line as a whole) than real "adult" material. I have a small annoyance with millar on The Ultimates, because it's obvious that what he really wants to be doing is writing a superhero screenplay and not a funnybook. It bothers me quite a bit.

Aside from these points, though, I think both books are more or less engaging and have phenomenal artists.

~PAd

 

Ultimates 2 #4 came out on Wednesday.

Simply amazing. I just reread it for the sixth or seventh time, and it keeps getting better.

It was the best comic released so far this year in my opinion. It had everything. It opened with a sight gag that was laugh-out-loud funny. There was some good character building for everyone ? how Millar managed to fit in that much character development in such a small space I?m not quite sure. There were some very interesting things said about Thor?s origin that sent me scrambling for U2#1, where I noticed something very interesting that I hadn?t even noticed the first time I read it. The new Black Widow suit looks fantastic, and I hope we see more of it. If Ultimate Thor gets any better, he?s going to join Batman in a special place in my heart ? the scene where he?s kneeling by the river was perfect. Quicksilver actually did something. The confrontation at the end has me extremely psyched for the next issue.

There wasn?t a single misstep in the book. There wasn?t a single page that wasn?t worth rereading. There wasn?t a single line of dialog that felt out of place. There were no scenes that felt in any way superfluous. This is not decompressed storytelling. This is perfectly compressed storytelling. Ultimates was good, but Millar has gotten even better since then.

And I haven?t even mentioned Hitch?s beautiful art. And it is. It?s fantastic. It?s amazing. It?s spectacular. It?s perfect.

This is in my opinion the best thing that Marvel has ever published. If you read superhero comics, you owe it to yourself to read the Ultimates.

 

These are two of my favorite books out right now. If I had to choose one over the other, I think I'd have to go with The Ultimates, mainly because I prefer Hitch's art to the guy who's doing SP, (I can't remember his name, but he'does excellent work as well) and I do like the reimagined Avengers.

I'm not up on SP, because I've been reading it in trade but I did get the latest Ultimates this week and WOW!! I love how they're taking on the "is Thor a god or isn't he?" angle, because at this point it really is still up in the air. My take- I don't think it will ever be resolved one way or another, it'll be up to the reader to decide for themselves, which I like. Anyway, I can't wait for issue five.

Anyway, if you're into comics and not reading either of these titles, do yourself a favor and pick them up. They're two of the best books out right now.

And while you're at it, pick up the new Captain America, it's equally wonderful.

 

And while you're at it, pick up the new Captain America, it's equally wonderful.

It's good, but not equally wonderful. Issue #4 in particular was kind of weak.

 

Oh, and regarding whether or not Thor is crazy, take a look through Ultimates 2 #1-3.

In U2#1, where Thor is talking to Volstagg, take a look at the panel where he says ?Don?t worry Volstagg. I?ll be ready.? Who is that passing by on the right hand side of the panel? In U2#2, where Thor is talking to Captain, who is just behind the girl when she spits on Cap? And who is behind Thor when he tries to tell Cap that it?s his evil brother Loki behind all the bad things happening? Gunnar Golman, the head of the Norwegian super soldier program, the man who claims to be Thor?s brother.

In case anyone is wondering about the name Gunnar, Gunnar was a man who arranged the death of his sword brother Sigurd in Norse mythology. In the 616 universe, Thor has used Sigurd as an alias. At this point, I think that it?s pretty obvious that Thor is not crazy, and that Loki is right up there with Palpatine in sneakiness.

 

It's good, but not equally wonderful. Issue #4 in particular was kind of weak.

Yes it is. No it wasn't.

 

Yes it is. No it wasn't.

Sorry, but it's just not in the same league. The new Cap series is the sort that people will remember fondly twenty years from now. The Ultimates is something that people will be using as a benchmark. It's the difference between the likes of Frank Miller's Daredevil compared to his Dark Knight Returns, or Chris Claremont?s X-Men compared to Alan Moore?s Watchmen. It has a lot to recommend it, and if it continues at its current level (#4 excluded) it?ll be something that?ll still be influencing the character ten or twenty years from now. But it?s just in the same league.

Ed Brubaker?s Captain America just isn?t as good. He doesn?t have the energy of the Ultimates; one reviewer described Captain America #1 as being ?as slow as a paraplegic cat?. The reviews have given it top marks for the art, but have tended to give the writing lower marks. Fan reaction just hasn?t been as high on average. And it?s losing a lot of readers with every issue. If I recall correctly, it debuted close to top ten, but then it dropped to top twenty-five with the second issue, and last months issue was just barely inside top thirty. Between parts 2 and 3 it lost over 10% of its share, which is considered an unhealthy drop. Some drop is always to be expected, but a 10% drop so soon is a troubling sign. Compare that to the Ultimates, which saw a drop of about 4% between #2 and #3.

There?s a lot to recommend it (the art in particular), but Brubaker just isn?t writing a story with as many levels, with as much wit, that is as entertaining, that is exciting as Millar?s Ultimates. He?s in the same class as Bendis in my opinion. Solid and reliable and entertaining, but he?s not writing one of the definitive comics of the era.

 

Dude, I was just stating I really dig on the new Captain America. Simmer down and let me enjoy my blissful comic book ignorance.

 

Dude, I was just stating I really dig on the new Captain America. Simmer down and let me enjoy my blissful comic book ignorance.

Hey, it's a great book, it's just not a Great book.