Symbol of the Republic

This is the earliest known symbol of the Republic: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Uglykotoricon.svg

During the Great War it used this symbol: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/a/a7/TORrepublicemblem.PNG

It later adopted the Bendu symbol of unity: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Republic_Emblem.svg.

My question is: why, then, did the Sith Empire during the Great War use this symbol? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:SithEmblemTOR.PNG

Why would the Sith use a Jedi symbol? Or was it originally a Sith symbol? It would seem like the earliest usage of the symbol, as the Jedi of KotOR-era used http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Jedi_Order.svg

It just strikes me as odd that the Republic would adopt the symbol of its greatest enemies. What is the proper history of the symbol?

 

The designers of TOR have no creativity and hence merely used the Imperial and Rebel symbols from the OT because as we all know, it isn't Star Wars unless it's a direct retread of the Holy Trinity (tm).

But I'm sure some nonsensical workaround will be developed by some long-suffering writer for hire to explain it all, until of course it is promptly stomped on by the next derivative multimedia project.

 

I think they just use these designs to make the game easier to sell.

 

Meh... for some reason image links aren't working for me right now, so ordinary links will have to suffice.

Empire
Republic

To some extent I always actually kind of wondered why the Republic in the prequels had basically the same symbol as the Empire in the OT. Nowadays, I also wonder why they reduced the number of spokes in the wheel, as presumably there was a reason for that as well. There are simple reasons for why the Imperator-class Star Destroyer was renamed the Imperial-class, but what was the big deal about how many spokes a wheel had?

Even from an OOU point of view it has always struck me as a bit odd. It isn't really as if the newer one with less spokes is more attractive, they both look basically the same. Was the newer one meant to look prettier painted on starships?

Oddly enough, I was actually thinking about this just the other day after I came across the occult Black Sun symbol for the first time (nothing to do with the Star Wars Black Sun crime group). If you compare it with the Republic/Empire symbol (particularly the Empire one) there is a distinct feeling of possible inspiration from why the original Empire symbol may have been what it was:

Black Sun
Black Sun #2

...which has left me with very mixed views. Naturally the possible OOU inspiration is not necessarily going to parallel over IU, but it does make me wonder whether this new Sith Empire symbol is a suggestion that the whole "wheel" symbol may have begun as something more sinister-- which would leave an open question as to when and why the Republic ended up adopting it.

Currently I half wonder though whether the TOR Sith Empire symbol is really the "true Sith" symbol or is just the original Republic one and that they have adopted it for their new territories the same way Palpatine's Empire did. The TOR Republic symbol is basically the phoenix that the Rebellion uses, so it may be (in a very backwards way that is obviously just to mirror the films) that it was the Republic that changed its symbol-- which would be a bit dumb, but whatever.

That then leaves the true Sith Empire symbol:

Sith Empire

...for the Emperor and his hidden cult that we have still yet to be revealed.

The only real way I can think of (beyond some oddball idea of the Sith actually being the ones using the true Republic symbol in TOR) is whether the TOR Sith Empire symbol really did evolve from the original Sith Empire "orange sun" looking thing. If you think back to the Black Sun again, the hint is in the name: sun. If in fact the "wheel with spokes" is actually meant to represent a sun, then if you erased the "flames" around the original Sith Empire symbol then what are you left with? A circle with a second circle inside it and a hole in the middle. Throw in some spokes and you then get back to the new TOR symbol.

 

Maybe the Bendu symbol of unity was originally used by the Dark Jedi during the 100 Year Darkness.

Then, I don't know, following the Ruusan Reformation we might have the Jedi and Republic "taking it back".

 

You know what's real creepy? I just checked out the Insignia of Unity page on the Wookiee and discovered this Old Republic symbol:

Clicky

Remind you of anything?

Clicky



I think you might be right, Uli. The Exiles appear to have been into defacing the existing symbols the way Palpatine did the Republic one.

Or, at least, I believe that's what I'm going to tell myself when I see the Republic emblem plastered everywhere in TOR. The Republic emblem linked above is probably not so much an echo of the DLotS symbol as much as just a normal navy looking image with "wings" on either side of the Bendu symbol. But I like the similarity nonetheless.

 

Cool.

Well, it might not have been intended, but it certainly works for me.

And I'm quite fond of the idea that the "Pre-Exilic Dark Jedi Exiles" who went on to become the Dark Lords of the Sith co-opted and defaced the Jedi symbol of "unity" to serve as their ironic emblem during the REAL 'Jedi Civil War'.

We could then pretend that the reason they're using it again, in ToR, (as opposed to the Sith Empire symbol we're familiar with) is a way of saying: WE'RE BACK, MOTHERKRIFFERS!

 

That's actually a really nice idea. If the Bendu symbol was essentially the original Jedi Order symbol (or at least the symbol for the Jedi Order's progenitors) there is something quite deliciously twisted in the Exiles having stolen it during the Hundred-Year Darkness to proclaim their "Unity" (remember how the Sorcerers of Tund split off because they followed "The Unity"?). Only for the Exiles "Unity" didn't mean the light like it did for the Bendu: it meant the union of light and dark.

Then maybe the Republic stopped using it during the TotJ and KOTOR era as it had been "tainted" as a Dark Jedi symbol (I don't even remember what the Republic symbol was during KOTOR? Didn't they just use the Jedi "lightsaber/phoenix bird" thing?). A bit like how the Nazis actually stole the Swasitka from ancient religious symbols and now nobody wants to go near it. The Union Jack has had similar problems (albeit nowhere near as bad) due to the BNP and such, though in more recent years people have tried to "take it back for the people" and such. Might be the Republic shunned the Bendu symbol due to the Exiles but later reclaimed it.

Notice how the Republic symbol at the time of TotJ was just a "circle" without the spokes? It was still technically the "Bendu" symbol, but it had lost a lot of its decoration, having become much more understated and disguised. Maybe the Republic only "reclaimed" the original spoke wheel symbol following the events of TOR and the final defeat of the Exiles' Empire? "Taking back to the Insignia of Unity from the fascist Dark Jedi" so to speak?

Either way: I really do like your way of putting it. I all of a sudden actually want there to be an Emperor who is genuinely a true descendant of the original Exiles.

It'll be interesting if we see the Bendu symbol around Tython also... as that could make for some interest IU discussion if they actually comment on the two insignias similarities.

 

I have an alternate theory.

The Sith Empire from TOR, is going to win, and then turn into a democracy. The later Republic is actually a decendant of the Sith Empire, not the Old Republic.

Or not. Hopefully.

 

I hadn't thought of the "light and dark" thing, I must admit, though I like it.

It's also worth considering that, had the Exiles been victorious, we'd have ended up with 'Dark Jedi' simply being 'the Jedi' - with "Light Jedi Exiles" (or, more likely, very dead Light Jedi). As such, the Exiles probably thought of themselves as the true Jedi, or the next step for the Jedi, or whathaveyou.

"Let the symbol of our forebears remind us that we must stand strong, and united, as we take the next step in understanding the infinite mysteries of the Force!"

Or something.

I mean, I doubt the Exiles called themselves "The Dark Jedi", or the "Heretics" or the "Heresiarchs"... and they probably still identified strongly with the label "Jedi".

I mean, chaos, even as late as 5000 BBY, Naga Sadow talks about having "pure Jedi blood".

I mean, I know they eventually went full hog with the "Dark" label, but to start with - at least - they probably considered themselves to be: "The Jedi Lords of the Sith".

I mean, I've said "I mean," a lot haven't I?

They were using this during KotOR.

My guess is that they might've adopted the TOR Phoenix bird thing following the JCW, since the Republic was on "the brink of collapse" (and this is further demonstrated by TSL), it might've been a big "we shall rise from the ashes" push.

I actually think it's likely that the Republic adopted the full Bendu symbol again during the NSW years, when they were frequently headed up by Jedi Supreme Chancellors.

"Unity between Republic and Jedi", so to speak... though, on a meta level, it foreshadows the the eventual transformation of the Republic into the (Banite Sith) Empire.

Actually, that's a thought, what if we have a Jedi Supreme Chancellor in ToR?

If they actually do comment on it, properly, in the game - I will be impressed and very forgiving of their useage of it for the Sith Empire.

 

Yeah. I think this often gets forgotten-- not just by fans, but the writers too.

It's one of the reasons why as much as I have found both Muur and XoXaan interesting characters (and very much like them fleshing out the Exiles) I have been a bit disappointed that they are very much in the stereotypical "RARGH! POWER TO THE DARK SIDE!" group.

I've always preferred to see the original Sith Lords are a very different group. After all, for Exar Kun and everybody since the term "Sith Lord" has meant a very different thing to the Exiles. For Exar Kun, he was trying to associate with wanting to become "Sith". For Naga Sadow et al it was about announcing that you were not Sith but the Jedi Lord and Master of the Sith.

Very different use of the word of in those cases. If TOR goes back to the original TotJ roots of the Exiles roots as "Jedi Lords" being emphasised, then I will be very impressed. Especially if they managed to link it into why the Sith Empire are now all Human: maybe after Ludo Kressh (who I always felt was 90% Kissai) betrayed Naga Sadow the "Sith" Emperor blamed the Sith race for the Empire's defeat? Enter mass Sith Lord inbreeding a la Krayt's breeding programs to create a new race of Sith who were all descended from the Exiles, with them over then next 1300 years intentionally breeding out their Sith blood?

In other words, the great irony is that the "true Sith Lords" are, in fact, Jedi.

Ah yes.

Looking at that in comparison to the new "Rebel Alliance" looking symbol for the Republic in TOR, there is actually an element of the Rebel symbol in the KOTOR one anyway I guess. The "wings" of the firebird are just wrapped round in the KOTOR one to make it less blatant than the new TOR one.

The new TOR one does have the spike in the middle between the two wings (the birds head I guess) but they seem to have started doing that a lot in the Clone Wars cartoon too with the Jedi having the lightsaber-in-wings symbol on their armour in that too. I guess the TOR one is basically the KOTOR one with the wings opened and the central lightsaber/bird's head emerging.

Doesn't really account for why it had to change, but I guess my own reaction may be why: the KOTOR one was easily forgettable as "just a weird Rebel symbol". Or one could just argue the new one isn't actually "new" but just due to a different art style.

Kind of like how although Coats of Arms in real life remain "the same" they can vary quite a bit depending on which artist actually depicts them. I presume that's why in real life the College of Arms in the UK doesn't actually record "pictures" but the "

 

From what I remember, adding the extra spokes alters the meaning from one of peaceful unity to unity through fear...or something like. Negative meaning to positive meaning.
It is an obvious reference to the belief that Hitler reversed the spokes on the swastika, turning its meaning from peace and brotherhood to hatred and destruction. I don't know if that is true or not, but it should remembered that a good number of cultures in the world has some kind of swastika thing.

On that note, the swastika was used by many people throughout history, even groups that were opposed to each other. You may ask why Hitler adopted the symbol used by Napoleon in the invasion of Germany.

In short, depending on how old and well known these bendu monks are, their wheel thing could just end up being a universal symbol.

 

That phoenix-like logo wasn't the only logo the Republic was using during the timeframe of Kotor 2. One of the neatest consistencies between K2 and the Tales of the Jedi comics was that the blue
logo seen on Republic ships during the Sith War was still in use 40 years later on worlds like Dantooine. Because it was so prominently displayed in Khoonda, as can be seen
here (scroll down a bit) in several images, it's probably fair to assume that the Republic, being as splintered as it was, did not even have a single, standard logo, something that might've been fixed after the Sith Triumvirate's defeat, possibly leading to the logos seen in TOR 300 years afterwards...

 

Hah!

Good ol Obsidian.

 

I'm to lazy to write an actual post, so here's a helpful graphic.

[image=http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b93/tripzero/lit/republicsymbols.png]

 

Lulz.

Though given the line "You were trusted to lead the Republic" and the TOR era symbol's similarity to the Jedi Order symbol, maybe they're so similar because by this point Republic=Jedi.

 

So damn confusing.

 

When you look at them all together like that there actually isn't that much difference between the KOTOR one and the TOR one beyond the artistic style of it.

I rather like how the TotJ and KOTOR ones are "empty" wheels too. Given the Sith Empire has adopted a fully perverted Bendu wheel, I'm content to conclude that the symbol had been stolen by the Sith way back, and that the Republic was forced to abandon it due to the uneasy swastika-like double meaning.

Which presents a nice reason for the emergency of the fire bird as an idea of "rebirth" in the face of Sith theft and perversion of originally holy symbols.

 

In Hinduism, there's a good swastika and a bad (unlucky rather than evil) swastika, but the Nazis used the good swastika at a 45 degree angle. The Buddhists only use one swastika, which happens to be what the Hindus see as the unlucky swastika.

 

I never saw them being proud of the Sith blood either, in fact I think they saw the heritage of the Sith species as a curse since they were in fact so gullible to take them as gods. Naga Sadow's pride of his Jedi blood seems to imply this. And it's obviously not because of force abilities since the Sith species were force sensetive. I think they saw themselves as being superiour to the Sith, which could be the reason for all the Dark Lords being part Sith - Marka Ragnos, Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow were all halfbreeds, and Naga was the most Humanlike of them. He could have seen Humans as superiour to other species because of that, and I'm sure he influenced others in his lifetime.

 

Random observation I just had today:

[image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/3/38/SithEmblemTOR.PNG]
[image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/thumb/3/34/CIS_roundel.svg/250px-CIS_roundel.svg.png]

Rotate either of those so they are oriented the same way as the other. Notice something?

Has the origin of the CIS insignia ever actually been stated? If not... well...

 

Good catch! It kind of bugged me that the CIS logo is just the Republic/Imperial logo with corners, but you may be on to something--although OOU I'm sure it's just coincidence on the developers' part.

 

It might also be useful to remember what this looks like seen from above.

HINT: it's NOT square.

- The Imperial Ewok