That old Imperial theme from ANH

Most people consider this cue to be just a more primitive imperial theme before the Imperial March of ESB, but I wonder if it would be safe to say its Tarkin's theme. After all, episode IV is the only film that it was in (unless somehow it gets inserted in ROTS, which I think is unlikely), and Tarkin seems to be the primary villian in charge of the Death Star in ANH. No writing I've ever found really supports this idea, but musically it makes sense.

(I apologize if this is an old discussion...this thread can be locked if the mods (GK) think it necessary.)

Thoughts until then?

 

It's Darth Vader's Theme.

From John Williams' Original Liner Notes:

Darth Vader's Theme: Long ago Darth Vader betrayed Ben Kenobi and the Jedi Knights. Now Vader represents the bad side of the Force. For his theme, I use a lot of bassons and muted trombones and other sorts of low sounds.

ttbk

 

I guess that settles it, but it could still work as Tarkin's theme if you think about it. In terms of the general progression of the saga, Imperial March has really established itself as the primary theme for Darth Vader, and in a sense, the old DV theme doesn't represent him like the other does, which is why it legitimately would make sense to consider it a theme for Tarkin, though clearly that was not the intention.

I wonder how ultimately John Williams or Lucas will end up explaining that. Possibilities could be that ANH is rescored, ROTS will utilize the primitive DV theme (which could be interesting), or they'll explain it through another logical idea like my Tarkin theory, though it'd be a bit revisionist on GL's or JW's part.

EDIT: grammar stuff

 

You certainly have a point that it doesn't quite fit in light of IM(though with a little imagination it can be explained), but because I'm rather fond of it, and would in general rather not see classic Oscar winning scores needlessly tampered with, I hope they try to work it into the rest of the series by introducing it in ROTS.

I don't think it quite makes sense as Tarkin's theme, especially in light of the scene in Ben's hut where it plays as Vader's backstory("from a certain point of view" ) is presented.


ttbk

 

That motif should have been introduced in AOTC as a variant of the "mystery motif" and Trade Federation march and utilized over the shots of the clone troopers both on Kamino and especially at the end of the movie on the reveal of the birth of the Empire. As it is, using "Darth Vader's Theme" at the end of the movie makes little sense as there is no Vader in the movie and the person who will become Vader isn't even in that scene.

This would then lead to ROTS and Star Wars where the Imperial motif would be the dominant theme for the Empire until Vader's real rise to power in ESB. Remember, in Star Wars, Vader is clearly not in power. Tarkin makes all the decisions while Vader seems to be little more than a bully.

Neil

 

Tarkin makes all the decisions while Vader seems to be little more than a bully

I disagree. Vader in ANH is like Maul in TPM in that Palpatine is the one with power over Vader. Yet he has much more authority to do what he wants. Tarkin's command is the Death Star -- yet it's Vader's decision that Leia should not be terminated immediately, that he will fight Obi-Wan alone, and to use a homing beacon on the Falcon. Leia's "leash" comment is clearly meant as an insult. Vader complying with Tarkin's command to stop the Force choke was no big deal to him. He was simply making his point about the Death Star (which proved true). There was no Ozzel-like failure.

But anyhow, the obvious answer is that JW decided to replace the ANH Vader theme with the Imperial March in ESB. Though I do like your suggestion about using the ANH Imperial/Stormtooper theme for when Obi-Wan sees the clones on Kamino. As for the "Dawn Of The Empire", I'm sorry, but nothing would have had more impact than the Imperial March there.

 

I agree with the Music Forum Administration. But then you knew that, Neil...

 

Then I have no idea what film you are watching.

It's Tarkin's decision to blow up Alderaan and that's a big decision. In fact, it's even Vader who escorts Leia up to see Tarkin before before the planets destruction. Isn't the chain of command obvious by these actions? Vaders task is to interrogate Leia and he personally goes out in a ship to fight off the rebels. Vader also lead a boarding party. This is all stuff that a lower ranked person would be responsible for. He never once was an authority figure in the movie, he was really just a thug, secondary to both the Emperor and Tarkin. Vaders true rise to power and prominence is signified by "The Imperial March" in The Empire Strikes Back.

I realize that with this theory it completely throws off the musical balance heard in the movies, but blame AOTC for that.

Neil

 

Why must people insist on placing Vader in the Imperial "chain of command"? It seems clear enough to me that he is outside that military structure; he is the Emperor's right-hand man. Of course Vader leads the more active missions. Who better than the Sith apprentice (former Jedi)?

 

I think this gets settled pretty easily if JW and GL just sort of rewrite history and proclaim that old ANH imperial theme Tarkin's theme instead. Then, case closed...Imperial March can be used in AOTC AND Revenge of the Sith without any need to use old theme, and no rescoring needs to be done to the OT. Regardless, I think I'll be happy with whatever JW does with ROTS musically. I hope though, whether the theme is used or not in episode 3, that the issue is addressed to explain why IM wouldn't need to be in ANH but the old theme does.

 

The problem is, "Tarkin's Theme" usually plays in scenes involving Imperials or Vader, not Tarkin.

 

Why should that stop anyone now? Vaders theme plays in AOTC when there is no Vader yet!

Neil

 

The problem is, "Tarkin's Theme" usually plays in scenes involving Imperials or Vader, not Tarkin.

Fair enough.

Why should that stop anyone now? Vaders theme plays in AOTC when there is no Vader yet!

lol...many lol

 

1. Vader is in AOTC. He is the evil or disturbed side of Anakin, not purely the mask. The imperial march plays for Vader in AOTC

2. Imperials are in AOTC. They are merely called Clone Troopers and the Republic rather than Stormtroopers and the Empire at this stage in the game. The imperial march plays for the imperials in AOTC.

So, imperial march is used for the same reason in AOTC as it is in Empire and Jedi (it also makes a bit appearance in The Phantom Menace when Yoda says "grave danger I fear in his training", again signifying Vader).

So, A New Hope is the only oddball here with the Imperial theme. Then again, A New Hope is also the most light hearted and least dark episode of the saga, so isn't it appropriate that the empire should have a lighter theme?

 

1. Vader is in AOTC. He is the evil or disturbed side of Anakin, not purely the mask. The imperial march plays for Vader in AOTC

Yes, I think we're all quite clear on the fact that Vader, to some extent, is in AotC. But is he in the "Dawn of the Empire" scene? Not at all!

2. Imperials are in AOTC. They are merely called Clone Troopers and the Republic rather than Stormtroopers and the Empire at this stage in the game. The imperial march plays for the imperials in AOTC.

And yet, despite its title, the Imperial March never really did represent the Imperials. The thing about the Imperials is that they are not important to the story. That's right! It's their leader, Vader, that is always in the focus. The theme represents him. Never do we truly see the Empire. It is always the Empire, led by Vader. Now, there's the Emperor in RotJ complicating things, but he got his own theme, and the Imperial March still heralded Vader, so I think it worked out all right.

So, imperial march is used for the same reason in AOTC as it is in Empire and Jedi (it also makes a bit appearance in The Phantom Menace when Yoda says "grave danger I fear in his training", again signifying Vader).

You use "Imperials" and "Vader" interchangeably. See my above response!

So, A New Hope is the only oddball here with the Imperial theme. Then again, A New Hope is also the most light hearted and least dark episode of the saga, so isn't it appropriate that the empire should have a lighter theme?

There's nothing light about the Imperial motif. But in the first film, the Imperials are hardly more than stepping stones for the heroes, Luke, Han, et al. It's just a little "uh oh, here comes the Imperials!" theme. In ESB, though, they (led by Vader, remember!) represent a true threat. The Rebel Alliance is pushed to the brink of collapse, at least as far as the audience is concerned (this is not the time for some nerd to point out that the Alliance still had over four thousand capital ships in its blah blah blah blah). So the theme is more grandiose and evil.

 

Eh, it just happens to seem Vader-centered because he's so prominent in the film that introduced The Imperial March. And where you say "It's the Empire led by Vader" anybody else could say "It's The Empire led by Vader"
Also, in RotJ (and Dawn of the Empire reminds me a lot of "The Emperor Arrives" anyway) the Empire is led a lot more by Palpy - however, ImpMarch is a lot more Vader's theme only in RotJ than in ESB, I give you that. Doesn't change the fact that it can represent both. Also, I liked cypher's explanation quite a bit.

 

Look at it this way: Aside from being Darth Vader's theme, the Imperial March is the main theme of the Empire, while the Imperial Theme is a sub theme.
ANH is dominated by the Rebels. They steal the Death Star plans and then they destroy the Death Star. The Empire loses big in this movie. Not exactly a moment where you'd throw in a bombastic number like the Imperial March. That would be like holding hands and singing "We shall overcome". The Empire is not that corny.
Instead, they are accompanied by the more subtle, almost humble, Imperial Theme. It fits the mood of the movie and at the same time, it gives you the feeling that the Empire is merely biding their time...
Then WHAM!(not the band), the Empire strikes back in full force and along comes their main theme - The Imperial March strikes back.

I would not mind it, of course, if the IM was added to ANH in a tasteful way. Just to hear a subtle rendition of it when Obi-Wan talks to Luke about what happened to his father would be very nice.
It could also be used in some scene with Vader.



The Empire - it's versatile
/LM

 

I suppose you have a point about the scene where Obi-Wan talks about Vader. If I had to put the Imperial March into one Star Wars scene, I sure as hell would put it there.

But the score should be left alone. It isn't perfectly continuous with the other films, but at the time, it was perfect. A sequel looked unlikely when JW wrote the score. So hands off!

 

I agree with Cerrabore 100%. The one scene with Ben and Luke needs a cue inserted with the IM, but the rest is fine as it is.

Knowing Lucas though...

 

I wish I did know Lucas. He's one of the few people in this world who I really admire.

There are a few scenes in ANH that have no music, where you could easily add some(because similar scenes in the other episodes do have music, so these scenes kind of stand out nowadays). For example, when Vader walks out to the hangar bay where the Millennium Falcon is, a brief march could(almost should) be heard. It's a short transition scene and as such, it would benefit greatly from some music.
When ANH was a standalone film, this was definitely not needed, but now that the Star Wars films have evolved like they have, it would, to me at least, feel natural.

You never know what Lucas will or will not do, though. He may not want to add any music at all and that will be fine. Afterall, ANH is a very good movie and at the end of the day, that's all that matters.



Leave it to Lucas - he's a smart fellow
/LM

 

Folks, now we are crossing into discussion of topics in these threads:

About rescoring the Original Trilogy

Should the Imperial March be added to A New Hope?

 

When ANH was a standalone film, this was definitely not needed, but now that the Star Wars films have evolved like they have, it would, to me at least, feel natural.

This only helps to prove my theory that Star Wars is a wonderful standalone film and that any change made to it to get it to "fit in" more with the others demonstrates its superiority. It's impossible to upgrade the other films to be like Star Wars, so it has to be downgraded to match them.

Star Wars is a perfectly spotted film. The music does an excellent job of coming in just when it's needed and not before, whereas every film in the series after it was scored wall-to-wall.

Neil

 

It's the other way round. TPM is the most complete Star Wars film.
What I meant was that improvements weren't needed on ANH when it was a standalone film BECAUSE it was a standalone film, nothing else.

Sorry about going off-topic. I'll shut up now.



No film is perfect
/LM

 

Did Lucas go back and add the Imperial March to A New Hope?

 

No.

Not yet at least.