The Ancient Sith - Discussion, Theories, etc. (was: The first Sith)

I noticed, and am somewhat disappointed, that there's no real evil, most evil of most evil (or at least close), super powerful figure who starts off the Sith and caused unspeakable destruction. In fact, those who could be considered the first Sith are totally the opposite.

The first Dark Lord of the Sith was Ajunta Pall, and he got REDEEMED. I have no idea who, or rather why, came up with that idea, because it really makes the first Dark Lord of the Sith... pathetic. He starts off the Sith, and then turns to the light? Not only that, but it's not as if he accomplished much either, apart from fleeing the Republic , subjugating a certain red-skinned species, wowing them with his lightsaber and pulling a Goa'uld. I am disappointed that Pall was the first Dark Lord of the Sith.

And then the first Sith Lord? Adas. We don't know much about him, and he may be very cool, but he never even left Korriban, a desolate world in the Outer Rim, and he met a lame and very un-Sith-Lordly end, sacrificing his life to defend his people against the Rakata.

And of course the actual first of the Sith species was probably some sort of more primitive Neanderthal-equivalent cave man who would have no knowledge of the Force or technology or civilization or anything.

I suppose the closest we come is the dark side of the Force itself, but then again, can the dark side really be considered a sapient being? Evil incarnate? Does it even exist, or simply a name applied to corruption?

So the end result is that there is no real badass first Sith, which is kind of surprising... and, as I said, disappointing.

 

There's Xendor. He's based off some guy from the earlier drafts I think.

 

I know, but in the end, what did he do? Fought Jedi on Tython, got killed, and, unless he was the Dark Underlord, was not Sith anyway.

 

well, one should keep in mind that a recurring in Star Wars is redemption(Darth Vader?)

Also, Ajunta Pall was one of the first "Dark Lords" or "jen'ari" but not THE first. Originally I believe the Dark Jedi became an order of Dark Lords with no one Dark Lord being the most powerful. King Adas wasn't really a technically a Dark Lord, but a King. The term "Dark Lord" came about mainly to describe the new Dark Jedi rulers of the Sith species and their religion.

The Sith may be villains in the Star Wars universe, but they still are human(I use that term loosely) so you are gonna find traits in them that one could see as positive despite all the negative energy they immerse themselves in. Like, for example, Jedi believe in improvement and self discipline, but so do the Sith. They may use what they improve and learn for different purposes, but from a certain point of view that could be seen as something the Sith have that is "positive," A desire to self improve and discipline themselves.

Edit: I'm pretty sure the Sith were confirmed to have teachings rooted in the Dark Side before the arrival of the Dark Jedi. It was when they interacted with them and made them their leaders that Jedi terminologies and rituals were added. Take the Fallanassi, they are light side Force users, but don't refer to it as "The Force," but as "The White Current,"

 

No, the title Jen'ari, or Dark Lord (of the Sith), was taken up by the Jen'jidai, or Dark Jedi, after they subjugated the Sith species. There was only one Dark Lord, with the other Dark Jedi becoming lesser Sith Lords, and the first Dark Lord was Ajunta Pall.

As for Adas, he was a King, yes, but his title was "Sith'ari" = Sith Lord. He was the first to bear the title of Sith Lord.

Sure, but the first Dark Lord of the Sith? He should be beyond redemption; even Ludo Kressh, one of the more unpopular Sith Lords among fans, shows more Evilness than Pall.

Yes. I never said they didn't.

However, there's no record of "the first Sith sorcerer who actively began practicing the dark side of the Force," and even if there was, barring some retconning, he'd still not have much impact on galactic affairs.

 

The sith did unite under Adas as a supreme being, but I haven't seen any mention of what sort of government the Dark Jedi first ran when they were proclaimed the Dark Lords. The earliest government of the Sith that I've seen(that was actually depicted) is Naga Sadow's period which consisted of a Supreme Lord/Emperor figure and a Dark Council of lesser Lords like you said, but I don't think any real depiction has been made of what sort of government the Dark Jedi created during their reign upon first reaching Korriban. So I don't know if any of us can say for sure how they ran things.

And I don't think that Ajunta Pall was the "Supreme" Dark Lord because when the Sith first decided to invade Republic space after the Dark Jedi ruled them(but years before Naga Sadow's Hyperspace War), it wouldn't make sense for Ajunta Pall to warn them and them to just do it anyway. And there's no mention being overthrown from anything in anyway, just that his sword or whatever was the end of him.

Edit: that's why I think they ruled as an equal body of officials. basically, King Adas ruled alone, The Dark Jedi ruled together, and Marka Ragnos ruled with a strong but lesser Dark Council much like the Emperor in the upcoming TOR MMO.

 

Sorry, but no. There was only ever one Dark Lord of the Sith at that time; the multiple Dark Lord thing came in with Kaan thousands of years later. There was no surpreme Dark Lord, and the Dark Jedi, while they did all rule the Sith, were not equals in rank.

As for the Dark Jedi returning to attack the Republic, I will remind you of Ulic Qel-Droma who, against the wishes of Kun, attacked Coruscant, or Darth Millenial. That does not mean those who they were disobeying were equals to them.

I'm not sure if there was a Sith Council then, but the other Dark Jedi DID take the title Sith'ari rather than Jen'ari.

 

True, but like I said, I haven't seen any real material that suggests that Ajunta Pall was THE leader other than the Wookiepedia article which just says in like one sentence that he was the leader of the Dark Jedi. Every time I hear his name mentioned in another Wookie article or an actual game or comic or something it's different.

The only time I hear him mentioned in actual Star Wars material, is as "one of the" original dark lords or "alongside Karness Mur and Xoxanne." I haven't seen anything, personally, which suggests to me he was the actual supreme leader of sorts. Which leads me to think he shared power with a few others at the least.

 

Ajunta Pall was THE Dark Lord of the Sith. That made him the leader. He outranked the other Dark Jedi; he was the Dark Lord of the Sith, and there were no others, only Sith Lords. After his death, it is very possible another fellow Dark Jedi became Dark Lord of the Sith, but it doesn't matter. Ajunta Pall was the first Dark Lord.

Evil Never Dies, Tales of the Jedi Companion, Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, even the original KOTOR game, all establish this.

 

KOTOR CG is what says he's both the leader of the Exiles and the first Dark Lord.

EDIT: Anyway, in regards to the original post, I don't think it's disappointing. The Sith are intimidating villains because of who they are and what they can accomplish now, not because they were formed by some ancient evil years ago. That just leaves every Sith living in the original's shadow. When we get someone like Palpatine, a pinnacle of the Sith, it's because they made themselves that way, not because they're imitating the original Sith badass.

 

okay, that helps, but is there any sort of real information on what sort of government the Dark Jedi ran when they gained control? The fact that Ajunta Pall is the "first Dark Lord" but yet is given far less focus in actual material than his associates Xoxanne and Karness Muur and that he just simply "warned" the other Sith Lords who sought to return to Republic space instead of actually stopping them using his political and physical strength in the Empire, makes me think that perhaps he didn't hold as much political power as later Sith Lords like Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow did.

Edit: it is possible that this was a case of disobedience like with Ulic and Exar Kun, but from the way sources seem to tell that particular incident, it sounds as if Ajunta Pall just simply let them or couldn't do anything to stop them. And since he wasn't mentioned as being overthrown and it doesn't seem as though there was the infighting amongst the Sith that ended the Dark Jedi reign until after this incident, makes me think there was a very different power structure than what we saw in later Sith Orders.

 

Yup.
[image=http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h125/Ulicus/Ajuntaspirit.jpg]
To be honest, Dreadwar, I increasingly love that the very first Dark Lord of the Sith came to regret over the course of his afterlife and was redeemed. It's . . . sorta perfect.

If you want your big bad irredeemably evil and archetypal "first" Sith you need look no further than Darth Ruin. He's the founder of the Lucas/New Sith.

 

yeah, I really liked it honestly.

I just questioned Ajunta Pall's political sway because it seems like he didn't really have the level of control that other Sith orders had which, in turn, made me question whether or not he was indeed THE first "Dark Lord."

but if he is indeed, than his redemption does serve a poetic purpose.

I can easily accept he was the first, I like the guy very much! I just doubt the type of power structure the Dark Jedi had when they were in control was the same structure Marka Ragnos had.

 

Yeah. A man who goes "I am God and you are all figments of my imagination." and was so evil that his own followers destroyed him is about as evil as it gets.

And in typing this post about the founder of the Lucas/New Sith, I have just realised something; is it just me, or could "I am God and you are all figments of my imagination" also apply to Lucas?

I can think of others who were also pretty evil through and through; Bane, Cronal, Nihilus, Kun, Muur, I expect Rivan and the Dark Underlord.

In general though, I agree that it's a shame it's the evil ones who we tend to know less about. But perhaps that's a good thing, as maybe that is the very reason why their characters have remained evil through and through?

I always used to think of the Exiles as true evil, but in retrospect I can actually see why it does work well, as Uli suggests, in having Pall be a misguided fool upon whose shoulders rests the blame for beginning the Sith Order in the first place. After all, the Exiles originally just wanted to bring people back from the dead and such; it's wrong in the sense of it shows they couldn't bring themselves to let go, so had attachment problems (I'd love it if they were the source of that ban against attachments), but it was still all good and noble from a certain point of view... they did it with "good intentions", just they got shunned as it was dark and descended into being less saving people from death, more raising zombies. But it's still an interesting fall, with a lot of ties to later day Dark Jedi, so Pall's redemption isn't entirely out of place.

(And all this is why we so need a Hundred-Years Darkness story.)

What I assume happened is simply as time went on, the Exiles' heirs increasingly became ever more drunk on power. They might have started out as these godlike rulers who the Sith worshipped as deities, but afterwards they turned from wanting to learn about the Sith's own magics to just treating them like slaves. I assume what happened was just once they had taught the Exiles all they knew, their usefulness was over, and that that was when the Exiles began experimenting on them, twisting them into mutants, so on and so forth, and enslaving them more than ruling them.

Fast forward until whatever time the hybrids took over and the humans of the Tapani Dark Jedi became the new underlings to their Sith Masters. That's karma for you.

 

My personal theory would be that Ajunta Pall was simply smart enough not to interfere when his most vocal opponents elect to go on a suicide mission.

Then when they fail, proving him right, his enemies are eliminated and his reputation goes up.

You say "had a lax hold on power" I say "political genius".

 

actually, for the sake of "believability" (yes, yes.. I know, using that word with Star Wars) there shouldn't be one truly badass first Sith. Sure, the first Sith could be super cruel and evil. But he couldn't amount to much on the darkside power side. They're learned skills and since he's the first, he basically has to make stuff up as he goes. We saw what a task it was for Bane to learn a lot of the stuff he knew and he at least had the ancient scrolls and holocrons to help. Imagine the reaction of the first person to ever use force lightning let alone something complex.

 

It's important to remember that the Sith don't just suddenly "happen"...it's a process that must go through 2 very significant events before getting to what we would call "Sith."

1...the schism with the Jedi...this took millenia to evolve and fester as doctrines were set in place in regards to the force...a premature rebellion with Xendor...and eventually the full break.

2...Finding the actual Sith...as much as you can argue the trivial nature of the name...it is a significant part of how the Sith Lords evolve that they find the Sith Species and subjugate them in the way they do.

The Darkness "grows"...It's not a shadow of some ancient might that brought it into this universe...it's a seething ever-present rival that gains strength for the ongoing discord of a galaxy at odds.

 

Perhaps I could have phrased my original post a little better. I don't mind Ajunta Pall or his role as the first Dark Lord of the Sith, in fact, I very much like the character and his history. A Jedi who falls to the depths of evil who after millenia of a terrible purgatory in his own tomb realizes how wrong he was, how the dark side was nothing good, and then is redeemed? Cool, and very 'in-character' for Star Wars.

However, in the absence of any other First Sith, I just wish Ajunta Pall and Adas, who were both relatively noble characters with good intentions, weren't the two candidates responsible for beginning the Sith. I'd have preferred more of a Darth Ruin, or even a Darth Nihilus or Darth Sidious, one who fits the mold of The Most Evil of Evil Overlord, rather than Tragic Fallen Hero.

That said, I see Ajunta Pall as the character seen and mentioned in TOTJ, the first who tried to infiltrate the dark side, who failed and "anger became his path," the young Jedi striking down his master and falling to the dark side. He's bald, like the statue in Pall's tomb as well. We don't actually know who was the original leader of the Dark Jedi, the one who first fell to the dark side (well, first in the Second Schism anyway) and betrayed the Jedi.

Anyway, what does everyone think of Darth Andeddu fitting into this? I prefer to see Andeddu as one of the Exiles, representing a certain 'path,' perhaps the creator of the Darth title and the proposed Darth sect. It would make sense considering he was born on Prakith yet was one of the ancient Sith. Pall frequently made mention of the first Sith Lords turning against each other and trying to steal the secrets of each other as well; that would fit in with the backstory given for Andeddu in Legacy.

Another thing is Pall's sword. It is said that his sword destroyed him, yet also implied he bound his spirit to it, or that it's evil kept him from redemption, yet Pall also says he wants it taken away so that it won't rot away like he did... Seems a little contradictory. What does everyone think of this?

Edit: We really, really need a Hundred Year Darkness book, or books. It would be one of the greatest and most epic stories, I think, and it would of course be one of the biggest EU-filled fangasm-inducing works in a very long time.

 

I should probably change this thread to The Ancient Sith Discussion Thread or something. Theories, speculation, all welcome.

 

I think other posters on the money when citing Darth Ruin, add to that Darth Sidious. Yep, he was a pretty nasty badass. Nearly on the same level of arrogance and conceit as Ruin. If I had to make a comparison to another franchise, Ruin is nearly the Star Wars equivolent of Morgoth and Sidious that of Sauron(he even comes back!).

 

My perfect Dark Jedi Exile Story:


The exiles land on Korriban, amaze the Sith with their powers, and dissolve into the Sith religion, becoming the people's rulers with Ajunta Pall christened as the first Dark Lord since he is the leader of The Dark Jedi. The other Dark Jedi are then given charge over different sections of the Empire, each holding considerable political sway based on the size of their domains. Almost like a set of city-states with Ajunta Pall controlling the most territory and being the only OTHER Sith Lord that can have any degree of say so in the affairs of other states(though it is by no means as large as the control he has in his own territory). Over time, the Dark Jedi rulers learn secret Sith magic, military strategies, and combat skills that are keen to each of their domains.


This would create the premise for their eventual turning on eachother. Each Dark Jedi who is in control has a council of Sith magicians that they learn their new powers from, but these powers differ from the magics of another Dark Jedi's council in the neighboring state and because the other Dark Jedi don't have any control over the Sith priests in another one's domain. This creates a stable but hostile atmosphere where all the Sith Lords(Dark Jedi) are balanced, each with their own set of combat and Force techniques unique to their realms, but all of the other Lords still desire the power of another. Ajunta Pall, as reigning Dark Lord,sets up organized combat to decide the rulers of the different realms in the event that one Sith Lord desires the territory and citizens of another, basically Sith Lords fight eachother in a gladiatorial style combat to decide who rightfully deserves the others power. This way, undesirables/weakness is effectively eliminated with the end result being a balance of the strongest. Ajunta Pall maintains his position as Dark Lord by defeating any challengers to his power through his mastery of swordplay and the Force. Also, only Pall is given the authority to organize a duel amongst the reigning Lords, any disobedience will result in a mandatory duel against Pall with the annexation of the other's realms as the prize.


Thus, Pall creates a somewhat balanced system where fear of losing one's political and religious power to him or another Sith Lord keeps everyone in check. However, eventually certain lesser Sith Lords, desiring to find some way to increase their power without having to challenge the likes of Pall or Karness Muur decide to join forces and head back to Republic space in hopes building their own government and taking vengeance on their Republic enemies and the Jedi. They find a loophole in Pall's political system that prohibits him from stopping them from carrying out this mission in their own domains, as it would result in him disobeying his own orders and casting doubt amongst his followers of the effectiveness and strength of his law and power. The other Dark Jedi's plan is not simply to try to take revenge against the Republic, but to allow the fear of the Republic finding out about the Sith to take hold over Pall and the other Lords to make and cause them to destroy eachother in an effort to take hold of the "abandoned" states as well as the rest of the Empire, in order to create an effective defense against a Republic invasion should the Dark Jedi fail or a more powerful group of Sith Lords than them should they succeed. The leading Dark Jedi of the invasion force set on attacking the Jedi have secretly made a plot to take out both Pall and the other Sith Lords along with the Republic in one swift stroke. The Dark Jedi will attack the Republic enough to weaken it and eliminate any would be adversaries amongst their own ranks of Dark Jedi and Magicians so as to make sure that by the invasion's end only they remain as the most powerful amongst the invasion team. They will then go into hiding after weakening the Republic, faking defeat,and then tricking them into thinking they have gone back to the Empire in an attempt to have both the Empire and the Republic destroy eac

 

I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make, as I did cite Darth Sidious, nor do I understand what how badass Palpatine was has to do with the ancient Sith.

Sith-Spitter, you might want to put in some spaces between the lines rather than one huge, hard-to-read chunk of text.

 

yeah like I said I got carried away

edit: there we go!

 

I've been wondering about several ancient yet little known Sith Lords who have been revealed fairly recently. There's been not much discussion about them. So while Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, XoXaan, Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, and Naga Sadow's bunch are known, what about Janton Belos, Valik Kodank, Ieldis, Kla, Komok-Da, Bo Vanda, Sansin Koriss, Tritos Nal, Rin Shuuir, Bavik Vannor and Dargous Tanmoul?

I am especially interested in Ieldis, as he set up the Crucible. I like the theory that the Crucible were used as Collectors and then the Sith, with their massive armies of Massassi, were Reapers. Plus the benefit of millions of slave soldiers? Ieldis was a clever guy.

The Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger also interests me. Ludo Kressh hardly strikes me as one of the most powerful Sith Lords, so if he could create a gauntlet that prevented anyone from touching you without consent, then it's highly probable other Sith created similar talismans, if not ones even more powerful.

This could be part of why the Sith Lords began stop using lightsabers. Perhaps they found that pieces of technology, like lightsabers, while flashy and enough to impress the Sith slaves, were ultimately not a match for Sith sorcery, talismans and magical swords? The Force can be used to drain a lightsaber quickly. Not only that, but the advantage of lightsabers being able to cut almost anything is lost when Sith swords, created through alchemy, are used. Sith swords also have special attributes and powers through the dark side; Sadow's was able to poison opponents, Pall had one that was flaming hot. And then when you bring artifacts like Kressh's Gauntlet into the equation... Tulak Hord might have been the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords, but what if he struck out with his saber at a fellow Sith Lord, and found he could not touch him due to a no-touch gauntlet, and found his lightsaber drained of energy through Sith magic, and then his opponent pulled out a sword with special Sith magic, and found himself turning to dust? I'd see why the lightsaber became more and more ineffective and the Sith Lords came to use dark side weapons such as swords, amulets, etc.

 

Watch us all find out at the end of the FotJ series that the Celestials were the original Dark Side users which in turn, accidentally created Abeloth through some sort of Dark Side experiment that went wrong. The Celestials then created the Maw to keep Abeloth in check. Prior to departing the known universe, the Celestials taught the Rakata how to harness the Dark Side which then in turn was eventually learned by Dark Jedi and a select few of the original Sith species. So in a way, the Celestials may be the "first Sith" in the way we currently use that term.