The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion

For those of you who don't know, the Armenian Genocide was an event that started on April 24th, 1915. The Ottoman Empire massacred over 1.5 million Armenians in order to wipe them off the face of the Earth. Turkey has denied this for almost a century now.

Although a lot of country's have declared that they recognize that this travesty has happened, it has yet to appear in any World History books. I had to go through two World History books in my class. And they both have only one paragraph saying that the Turks slaughtered Armenians. After that there is nothing. Nothing saying how many Armenians were massacred, how it happened, or why it happened. The truth is that if you're not Armenian, Turkish, or have a special "reason" for knowing about the Armenian Genocide, you almost certainly do not.

The Holocaust is known all across the world as a great crime and people know who was behind it all and can probably tell you things they know about the Holocaust. They'll tell you about what the Jews had to go through and about concentration camps. And these aren't people who study the Holocaust as a hobby or as an interest. These are people that learn that from their World History class.

If I asked you who Adolf Hitler is, everyone would know off the top of their heads. Now if I ask you who Abdul Hamid II is, how many of you can honestly say who that is?

Now after the Armenian Genocide you'd think that since the entire world knew what was going on, they would punish the Ottoman Empire somehow, right? Nope. The people of Turkey got away with it. No one stood up and said, hey this is wrong, something must be done. No one tried to punish Turkey.

Here is a quote from Hitler:

"Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

He said that to persuade his associates that the Holocaust would be tolerated by the rest of the world.


Alright, I rambled on long enough, I'll let some other people talk about this subject. If you don't know anything about the Armenian Genocide you can ask me or any other Armenian person that posts on this thread, because I'm sure they will be happy to inform you about it.

And also, this thread is in no way an anti-turk thread. If you want to make racist remarks about turks or any other race for that matter, this is not the place to do it.

 

Ah, the forgotten genocide.

It's hard to explain the effect this has on me, given as how I've had some very close Armenian friends. One example you may know is that of Sen. Bob Dole, who had been saved by Armenian surgeon.

I've seen, firsthand, their hurt and outrage as Israel, desperate for an alliance with Turkey in an unfriendly region, sides with Turkey on this matter. Israel, dear friends, has sought to maintain a monopoly on historical genocide and persecution.

The death of 1.5 million of some of the most beautiful people ever was not only a crime against humanity by Turkey, it was a completely pointless massacre. Whereas there was an ethnic component to Rwanda or Bosnia, or a heavily bastardised version of Christian eugenics inspiring the Holocaust, the Armenian died for the crime of being in the way.

And still Turkey denies this crime, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

And the United States refuses to acknowledge it formally, to keep Turkey as an Ally.

And Israel revised it's stance, to keep it's ally status with Turkey intact; Jews, it seems, have a monopoly on suffering, persecution and genocide.

E_S

 

Why does the Republic of Turkey deny it? Didn't the Ottoman government commit the crime?

 

Yes, Turkey's usefulness (missile bases) in the Cold War meant the US would side with them on this issue, but now I hope that after their belligerence in Operation Iraqi Freedom (the government is slowly leaning away from its secularity that made it an ally in the Middle East) the US will abandon its stance of looking the other way with regards to the Armenian Genocide (don't forget the Ottomans also killed/relocated several Greeks and Jews in Turkey as well).

 

Yes, the New Turks had that blood on their hands, but they won't admit it out of pride, I guess. Ask a Turkish official...

E_S

 

Henry Morgenthau Sr, America's ambassador to the Ottoman Empire from 1913-16, noted the deportations and executions as "cold-blooded, calculating state policy."

His successor, Abram Elkus reported that the "Young Turks" (ruling government of the Ottoman Empire) were continuing an ". . . unchecked policy of extermination through starvation, exhaustion, and brutality of treatment hardly surpassed even in Turkish history."

 

It was also Morgenthau who noted how hauntingly beautiful the Armenian people are.

E_S

 

It's a strange thing for America to not formally acknowledge the Armenian Genocide seeing as how the Armenian Genocide and the massacres of the Armenians in the mid 1890's played a large part in expanding Americas International affairs.

The Armenian Massacres of the 1890's was the first international trip Clara Barton and her Red Cross took.

In this book I'm reading called The Burning Tigris, it goes more in depth then Ihave just now, but it truly did play a large part in America's history. Yet you don't see too much about it in ANY World History or American History book.

 

Three words, my Armenian Friend:

Turkey the Ally.

That's why. Sadly.

How do you feel about Israel siding with Turkey on this matter?

E_S

 

In 1994, Israel officially condemned the Armenian Genocide, branding it "genocide, not war."

 

But since... Israel has basically said that it should be a matter for historians to discuss, not politicians; in effect, it's something for academics to lunch over...



E_S

 

Well, how do you think I feel, being an Armenian?

I truly think that the genocide is one of the biggest problems in the world right NOW. How can a country go off and kill that many people, and not get punished for it? I love America, I live in America, but C'mon! We, as in Americans, can interfere with every country's business but we can't do anything about the slaughter of my people. It almost makes me sick to my stomach.

 

Well, no offense, but the United States can't do anything 90 years later, 'cept to make Turkey acknowledge it.

 

The point Armenians often make is that would be enough.

They want justice for what happened, but they want to heal first and foremost.

E_S

 

The whole problem is how you define what the Turks did. They wouldn't call it Genocide--more like an ethnic cleansing. 'Cleansing' doesn't necessarily entail the death of a population, merely removal. More often than not it does involve mass death. The Turks forcibly removed Armenians, that so many hundreds of thousands died as a result of this would be called an unfortunate consequence. Or at least that is likely what they would say if pushed on the issue.

It was the rudimentary begiinings of the industrialization of killing that Hitler would perfect a two decades later, although a case can be made that the Germans likewise were in favour of simply moving the Jews out (witness the Madagascar plan) and began systematically exterminating them once they had no other options left. It all gets very tangled and sticky to even talk about it rationally, even though what took place was inhuman. What people can do to each other.

Anybody interested in exploring further, I recommend Norman Naimark's Fires of Hatred. Its an excellent place to start.

 

I've been through my fair share of history classes but until now I never knew this happened. Good for you Armenian_Jedi for bringing the issue to light.

 

I think we side brushed this issue in my History of Islam and the Middle East class when we were talking about the breakup of the Ottaman Empire, but I didn't get a good understanding of what happened and why.

 

To put some more details on this; the genocide happened immidiately after the end of the Ottoman Empire, when the New Turks took the country under their control. The New Turks movement, was at first very friendly to all the different people that lived in the Ottoman Empire, but when they came to power they showed their true purpose to "clean" Turkey from other people, especially Christians. Their actions led to the genocide of both Armenians and Greeks (especialy in the area of Pontus).
Today, as Armenian_Jedi earlier said, most people are still anaware of the Armenian and Greek genocides...

 

Like I said starsailor, if you take a history class, you will not learn anything about it. I don't know if the people that make the books "bumped" it for something else, or if they simply know that no one cares about the poor Armenians, but somehow, it's a part of history I'm afraid most people will never be aware of.

 

I took a long time to reply to your post Moff_D cuz I've been researching the genocide to find out more.

It wasn't ethnic cleansing though. They weren't just trying to remove the Armenians from their country. They were trying to exterminate us. To take us off the planet. That is not removal from their country. Women were raped before they were killed. How does THAT have anything to do with ethnic cleansing?

 

No matter how you call it, genocide or ethnic cleansing - the effect is the same. Turkey (at war) wanted to wipe out Armenians off their territories and sent all those people on deadly marches through deserts - and IMO that's murder.
Why don't they admit that? Turkey came away with it and for sure they don't want to feel guilty because of some old stories. The people who did that are long dead. And maybe Armenians could get the idea to move back to Turkey. Another problem IMO is that Turkey treated also other ethnic groups really bad - Kurds for example. If Turkey gets the mark of having comitted that genocide Kurds may have a stronger poistion. Can anyone explain me why a people that is ethnically different (although sometimes Turkish politicians don't acknowledge that) , has a different language and doesn't feel like it belongs to Turkey does not get its own state?

 

You're right SS. It doesn't matter what it's called. The bottom line is that 1.5 million people died and no one will take the blame for it.

 

Another problem IMO is that Turkey treated also other ethnic groups really bad - Kurds for example. If Turkey gets the mark of having comitted that genocide Kurds may have a stronger poistion. Can anyone explain me why a people that is ethnically different (although sometimes Turkish politicians don't acknowledge that) , has a different language and doesn't feel like it belongs to Turkey does not get its own state?

If you think about it, Kurds are one of the most "unlucky" nations in history because they NEVER actually had a state of their own. They are still one the very few nations in the world that don't have a state. The Turks killed many people back then trying to "clean" their country. They succeeded with Armenians and Greeks but the Kurds are still the majority in most of east Turkey.

 

Genocide (by Muslims in particular) is no new thing. What sadly happened in Armenia also happened throughout the entire middle east and south asia.

Millions of Hindus, Buddhists and non-muslims were slaughtered as Islam spread Eastward from the Arab penninsula. Hindus and Buddhists at one time spread all the way into what is now Western Iran but as Islam gained a foothold, other religions were not tolerated. The same can be said of the Armenian Christians who got in the way of the Muslim Ottomans.

While the Armenian and Hindu/Buddhist genocides are well documented, they do not receive much attention nowadays as the Jewish holocaust (which was more "recent" I suppose). For one, as Ender so astutely pointed out, America is dependent on Muslim Countries (oil) and therefore naturally they do not want to risk the chance of alienating the already fragile ties that exist. Also, in this modern age, it seems as if it is politically correct to question anything about Muslims or Islam in general. Doing so will risk you the label of being "racist" or xenophobic.

Hopefully one day, these tragedies will be brought to the mainstream consciousness as much as the Jewish Holocaust has been in recent times. But it seems that these atrocities must first be recognized for the healing to begin.

 

Wait, you think Islam itself is responsible for the genocide(s)?