Saga The big Star Wars Myth # 2 – Imperial strength and starfleet size?

Hyrum_Solo

As a matter of fact that's a visualization I want to do asap (I have 97% accurate side view schematics, based on the original, actual models). I will push back the deck plans of the Star Destroyer command bridges, but currently my upcoming article on the Rebel Blockade Runner Tantive IV (as seen in ANH) and the deck plans and other visualizations I'm currently making (my personal present for the upcoming 40th birthday of this beautiful and enigmatic vessel) eat up all of my free time (and I'm already feeling bad being here). Soon...very soon.

 

I will admit, the different classes for the different sized SDs does have a certain appeal to it if there is a small fleet. But that raises the question, what does it benefit the Star Fleet to have the same ship with the same features just scaled up and down? For example, Dauntless vs Devastator. The same turrets but one is smaller than the other.

 

Or "Invader" vs "Avenger" for that matter.

 

I always thought ever since rebels that when Han refers to local "Bulk Cruisers" as Imperial Light Cruisers or Imperial Frigates. While still boasting that he's outrun Imperial Star Destroyers in the same conversation.

 

ISD1s could be older models that are smaller while ISD2s are newer updated models that are scaled up. Real world, the model makers decided on artistic improvements.

 

While that might work for "Dauntless vs Avenger" using the "Dauntless is 955m, Avenger is 1270m" theory, it doesn't work so well for Devastator vs Avenger - especially using the "Devastator is 2242m long" theory.

Yup - though they put some effort into applying those artistic improvements retroactively to the older models. For example, a "Devastator-type" ship is seen in TESB in front of the Executor, right before we see Vader with the top of his helmet off. It has Avenger-style lights - they copy-pasted them from recordings of the Avenger-type onto their recording of the Devastator-type.

 

I think you missed my point, doesn't it make more sense to mount the same sized battery on a smaller structure (as in the Prosecutor-Class SD) than it does to have the same battery just scaled down on a Dauntless vs a Devastor?

 

I'm guessing that spellchecker has renamed the Procursator here?

While it makes sense to use the biggest guns that can comfortably fit on the chassis - sometimes there's an upper limit to the stresses a chassis can take from guns firing.

To take disproportionately big guns, requires the ship to be specially designed to carry them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitor_(warship)

Without this kind of special design, guns tend to scale up with size - heavy cruisers having larger guns than light cruisers, battleships having larger guns than heavy cruisers.

 

The point I'm trying to get at is you would most likely design a different gun, then waste space or lose space by just scaling the same gun up or down.

edit: buoyancy isn't so much of a problem in space, and neither is ammo.

 

Hyrum_Solo wrote

(finshed the essential first parts of my upcoming and illustrated Tantive IV article, but have to make a couple of visualizations, so this is just a quick break from that particular subject)

But that raises the question, what does it benefit the Star Fleet to have the same ship with the same features just scaled up and down?

That's a good question, as all the major proportions are the same. However, watched from the side (most assuredly I'll illustrate that) you'll be able to notice that the conning tower of a "one mile" Devastator (depth of it, length of neck) looks tiny compared to the conning tower of an Avenger at one mile, too. At 2,242 meters length for the Devastator that's no longer the case, depth of conning tower and length of neck compared to a one mile "Invader Class" Star destroyer (seen at the start of ROJ) look equal and better balanced, but I guess you'll need to see it.

Frankly, I'm not that happy about the "Invader" class designation (I know, I know - I was the culprit bringing it up). Assuming that Star Destroyer names (finally suggested by Rogue One's "Dauntless") or classes are derived from a) World War II US single engine torpedo or dive bombers that also b) participated in the Battle of Midway the other class remaining for an OT Star Destroyer then would be "Vindicator" (after the Vought SB2U Vindicator, stationed on Midway and operated by the US Marine Corps - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_SB2U_Vindicator)

For example, Dauntless vs Devastator. The same turrets but one is smaller than the other.

From the footage I've seen thus far, the Dauntless lateral guns rather resemble rectangular boxes than the rounded ones of the Devastator with rectangular extensions to the back. The gun turrets aren't just simply scaled down 'clones' of the Devastator's big guns, as far as I can thus far tell (Dang it, when do the first screencap galleries arrive? )

 

Recoil was though - at least in Legends, with the guns putting a lot of stress on the ships every time fired, needing tough mountings (Slave Ship novel).

 

Keep up this analysis of names for the ISDs. I am analyzing the specific model parts that went into the Avenger model face and I am curious at the choices made by the builders. What part goes where and why they chose that part over another part. Parts from American warships are not used on the face (so far as I have seen), but here you have information that an *American-ness is not absent from the ISDs. This then dredges up greater issues of what Lucas was representing by the Empire, considering that the genesis was in an impeachment of Nixon and a morality not entirely stable from getting out of an unpopular war. The last time the moral ground was entirely stable, we knew, oh so surely, who the bad guys were. And the ISD, or the physical ILM studio model Avenger specifically, and maybe Devastator, specifically, is/are a huge dataset to look at from many angles.

 

I don't recall that SD in any of the 6 original films. Generally with warships, you increase size to either mount bigger guns, carry more missiles, carry more troops, or carry more fighters.

 

That's a Legends-verse SD.

 

Still a reasonably good design.

Here's a little table I put together regarding how much money the Empire actually has to use in its government. Keep in mind most things are somewhat arbitrary but I did do some research on the EU to help me get these numners (fingers crossed the table copies over properly).


1 credir=$3
# of member worlds in the Empire
1 trillion credit income per planet
100,000
500,000
1 million
5 million
12 million
10% tax
1x10^13
5x10^13
1x10^14
5x10^14
1.2x10^15
Credits after 18yr period
1.8x10^14
9x10^14
1.8x10^15
9x10^15
2.16x10^16
Credits after paying for DSI (lower cost estimate)
INSIGNIFICANT CHANGE if cost 1 trillion credits
Credits after paying for DSI (upper cost estimate)
Too lazy to do the math but t would have to be a ridiculously high to change the number
Cost to build 25,000 ISDs
2.5x10^10 (1 million per SD)
Cost to maintain all ISDs for 1 year
3.5x10^9 (1 ISD cost 1.4x10^9 to maintain, somewhat arbitrary)

 

Darn, I'll have to make a sreenshot of it later and then post it.

 

Before I get back to work making Tantive IV visualizations for the upcoming article, here is one I felt to be somewhat necessary:

 

Where does the "Vindicator" appear?

 

That is fascinating to me because Lucas put them through a prism and separated certain wavelengths to one purpose and others to another. Torpedo bombers port a naval theatre with ship/island vulnerability. They have the highest expectation density, in that for their 8 tons loaded weight, they have a chance of sinking a vessel of 1000-4000 times that weight. Their swift arrival can mean doom to a ship nowhere near land, in a way that individual fighters would not. The ISD names carry a legacy of punching outside of their weight class, with the ability to be final about it. (Aside from ISDs, torpedo bombers have to be carrier-able, but still achieve long range, so they have to have very limited crew, which fed some of Lucas' early dialogue choices.)

 

Iron_lord

That ship (or one of its class) would have been the genuine "one mile" long Star Destroyer (1,622 meters) seen at the beginning of ROJ from which Vader's shuttle emerged (based on the shuttle dimensions and the dimensions of the forward bay I extrapolated a length of 1,622 meters for that particular SD).

I'm not sure who actually decided on the names, but my guess is ILM. At first there was nothing to write home about "Avenger" but when I learned that Brian Daley had given Vader's ANH Star Destroyer the name "Devastator" for the radio drama (was that name provided / suggested by Lucasfilm / ILM?) I couldn't help but wonder (IIRC, Midway was the last film I saw in a theater before ANH and was familiar with those historic events and the names of the key planes involved).

When I read in the Rogue One Visual Guide that the SD over Jedha was the Dauntless (interesting deviation from the official name finding method, as IMHO it usually suggested a noun with an "...er" or "...or" ending) it looked rather clear to me.

I had suggested "Invader Class" but that was actually a twin engine bomber. So I asked one of my friends what other US single engine fighters existed in WW II with an "er" or "or" ending and thus learned about the Vought Vindicator I wasn't previously aware of (because it was stationed on Midway itself and saw limited participation in the battle).

 

From what I know in the new canon so far the official imperial starfleet incorporates pre ANH (not incorporating local governments of guilds)

• Different classes of super star destroyers
• Imperial Star Destroyers (class 1)
• Indictor Cruisers,
• Imperial Light Cruisers
• Imperial frigates
• Lambda class shuttles
• Sentinel class shuttles
• Tie bombers
• Tie Interceptors
• Tie fighters
• Tie Defenders

I may be missing some^ but this is what I know from Rebels and some of the novels...

 

The ***!
You don't destroy Anaxes for no apparent reason! http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anaxes
The Heck! Why?! All that history, all that importance, all that stature in the Empire! Why?! An entirely good planet, just poof! Gone. The Anaxes War College, the Officer Training Schools. The pilot training schools. All of it, thrown in the trash because nobody cared a ***.
*regains self composure*
Sorry about that. Just really upset at Rebels to sacrifice the importance of an entire planet for one lousy episode. I'm just really blown away by this. It doesn't make any sense.


To add to your list from canon wookipedia:
ShipsEdit

This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.
Space stations and superweaponsEdit


The Executor-class Star Dreadnought Executor and its escorts.

• Anthan Prime Orbital Dockyard[43]
• Calcoraan Depot[44]
• Death Star[45]
• Death Star II[23]
• Galidraan Station[2]
• Hosk Station[46]
• Orbital Shipyard CC-24[47]
• R/M Facility Four deepdock[2]
• Wrath[23]

Capital ship classesEdit

• Executor-class Star Dreadnought[48]
• Imperial-class Star Destroyer[49]
  • Imperial I-class Star Destroyer[50]
  • Imperial II-class Star Destroyer[51]
• Qaz-class Star Destroyer[45]
• Secutor-class Star Destroyer[2]
• Tector-class Star Destroyer[52]
• Venator-class Star Destroyer[43]
• Victory-class Star Destroyer[2]
• Gladiator-class Star Destroyer

Cruisers and CorvettesEdit

• Arquitens-class light cruiser[11]
  • Imperial light cruiser[53]
• Carrack-class light cruiser[6]
• Carrion Spike[2]
• CR90 corvette[54]
• Gozanti-class cruiser[55]

Interdictor cruisersEdit

• CC-7700 frigate[2]
• Detainer CC-2200 interdictor cruiser[2]
• Immobilizer 418 cruiser[32]
• Imperial Interdictor[11]

FrigatesEdit

• Razor-class frigate[56]
• Salliche[2]

Support carriersEdit

• Quasar Fire-class cruiser-carrier[57]
• Goliath[2]

TugsEdit

• Fremond[2]

ShuttleEdit

• Delta-class T-3c Shuttle[58]
• Eta-class supply barge[58]
• Lambda-class T-4a shuttle[59]
  • T-5 Deliverance[60]
• Sentinel-class landing craft[61]
• Theta-class T-2c shuttle[2]
• Zeta-class cargo shuttle[58]

Gunships/troop transportsEdit

• Imperial Dropship Transport[60]
• Low Altitude Assault Transport/infantry (retired)[2]
• Patrol transport[62]
• Low-altitude Imperial transport[34]
• Delta-class DX-9 stormtrooper transport[63]
• Theta-class barge[60]
• TIE lander[64]
• Y-85 Titan dropship[64]
• TIE Reaper[58]

Thorilide collectorsEdit

• Forager[44]

StarfightersEdit

• Alpha-3 Nimbus-class V-wing starfighter[65]
• Aggressive ReConnaissance-170 starfighter (retired)[66]
• Eta-2 Actis-class light interceptor (retired)[67]
• TIE/D Defender[68]
• TIE/ln space superiority starfighter[69]
• TIE Advanced v1[70]
• TIE Advanced x1[71]
• TIE/sa bomber[33]
• TIE/IN interceptor[72]
• TIE/sk x1 experimental air superiority fighter[58]
• VT-49 Decimator[60]

 

It looks like Vaught Vindicator was past its prime by the time of the achievements of Avenger and Devastator. The Wiki entry for Vindicator says it was requested in 1934 and was an obsolete fighter by the time of WW2.
http://www.navalaviationmuseum.org/history-up-close/vought/

 

Hernalt wrote

It looks like Vaught Vindicator was past its prime by the time of the achievements of Avenger and Devastator. The Wiki entry for Vindicator says it was requested in 1934 and was an obsolete fighter by the time of WW2.

Yes, but so was the Devastator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_TBD_Devastator

 

I have an autographed copy of Sole Survivor, a book written by naval aviator George Gay, the only Devastator pilot from Torpedo Squadron 8 to survive the Battle of Midway. He was shot down early in the battle and watched how it ended while treading water and hiding under a seat cushion when Japanese Zeros strafed survivors. Fascinating reading for those of us who are into that sort of thing.

Sorry about the tangent, back on target now...