The Chance Cube.

"We'll let fate decide.

I just happen to have a chance cube here. Blue, the boy, Red, his mother." Watto

Watto rolls the cube, and with a wave of his hand - Qui Gon reaches out with the Force and brings up blue.

Did fate decide? What would've happened otherwise? Could this NOT be what the Force intended, and Qui-Gon somehow interfered with Fate which in turn had consequences for the future, perhaps negative?

Discuss.

 

Judging by the way Watoo acted before tossing it and reacted at the outcome, I thought the chance cube was rigged to always come up on the same side. I thought we were supposed to come to that conclusion from the scene. Maybe not, though.

 

I think it had 4 red sides and 2 blue, putting the odds in Watto's favor.

 

There was a thread about 3 weeks ago where we determined that there were three sides of each color.

Anyway, I think in this case fate = will of the Force, and it was the will of the Force that caused Qui-Gon to use the Force to manipulate the chance cube.

If that makes any sense...

 

Yeah, ousley. I've always kind of thought that. But I started thinking today about the first thing Watto says, "We'll let Fate decide." But fate doesn't decide, and that is interesting irony. The Force was used to MAKE it happen.

What if he hadn't interfered and red came up? Would they have never returned to get Anakin?



PS I never thought of the 'rigging', I'll contemplate

 

This reminds me of Obi Wan in ANH. Maybe he should have let fate decide when the Stormtrooper asked for identification

 

Watto certainly rigged the cube, regardless of the ratio of red to blue squares. His anger at having to wager Ani indicates this. He wanted to wager Shmi, but ended up having to risk Ani.

 

Emos, frankly I don't think it matters. Qui Gon was going to use the Force to get his way anyway, especially for his feelings on the "vergence" over Anakin.

 

openmind,

Frankly, I don't see where I said "it" matters, whatever "it" may be. Who says it matters?

Watto knows that he got cheated, because with that cube he should have won. That's why he was angry. However, he had no basis upon which to argue because any inspection of the chance cube would probably reveal that it was rigged. Thus he has to begrudgingly accept that he, a would-be cheater, was out-cheated by a Jedi. Perhaps that is what Lucas is illustrating at that point, that if one cheats, one is likely to end up being out-cheated.

 

Well what I meant was whether the cube was rigged or not, Qui Gon wouldn't be concerned.

He would still manipulate the dice as long as there were reds and blues, weighted or not. The idea was to get Anakin.

 

I think it's pretty clear that Qui Gon used the Force to manipulate the chance cube, and that in doing so, he manipulated Anakin's destiny.

By this point in the film, his character had already been established as perfectly happy to use the Force in morally dubious ways- to "persuade" Boss Nass to just give him a submarine (effectively stealing), and to try to get Watto to accept currency that was worthless to him (stealing again.) Later in the film, we discover that Qui Gon seems to regularly go against the wishes of the Jedi Council and doesn't follow the Jedi Code; he is a Jedi by name, but not much else it seems. Then in AOTC, we discover that his master took this to the next logical step and leaves the order, and turns to the Dark Side.

This is a character who is clearly convinced that he's doing the right thing when he's following the Will of the Force, who turns out to be playing straight into Darth Sidious' hands.

When Anakin leaves Tatooine, he literally follows in Qui Gon's footsteps.

Just join the dots.

As Yoda says, "Clouded, the boy's future is." In light of AOTC, this obviously has something to do with the Dark Side- and yet Anakin hasn't had any "contact" with the Dark Side; he can't manipulate the Force at all at this stage. Maybe it's the Dark Side of his future actions that's clouded his future, or maybe it's the fact that Qui Gon has significantly altered his destiny.

Considering that he's the Chosen One, with the destiny laid out that he will bring balance to the Force, I think it's pretty clear that Qui Gon made a serious mistake. Anakin was naturally being guided by the Force, as illustrated by his midichlorian count and his "luck"- Qui Gon effectively gave him the ability to manipulate the Force that was guiding him. (Is it a coincidence that "Qui Gon" loosely translates as "energy manipulation"?)


[EDIT- There is the point of view that it was perfectly acceptable for Qui Gon to cheat the dice roll, because Watto had rigged the dice. I find it a peculiar code of morals that concludes that two wrongs make a right...]

 

good post, Scott. Yes, it does lead to an interesting line of thought.

And what evidence do we have the cube was rigged? Novelization, anyone?

 

I think it's pretty clear from Watto's reaction that he was oddly confident that he was going to win his game of "chance", but I am told that the novelisation says that it was weighted.

 

I've read it, but that was years ago. I don't recall it - that is for sure.


So, if Qui-Gon hadn't interfered and it did come up, Red? Shmi is free after the pod race.

Would the Jedi find some way to come back, after getting to Coruscant, with real money to buy the boy?

I just don't see Qui-Gon leaving the boy there. He would have come back, after the Queen was safe, to get the boy.

 

Well, we can only speculate on what might have happened- however, the most obvious difference is that without Qui Gon's "quick and easy path", Shmi would have been freed by the time he came back, which I think would have made a difference to Anakin's state of mind at the time of AOTC if all else had stayed the same- it would have been a lot easier for him to "let go" if he knew that she was no longer a slave.

Other than that, I think it's too easy to slip into wild speculation; there are too many factors. If events had carried on in the same way as they did in TPM but without Anakin tagging along with the Jedi, then Qui Gon probably wouldn't have made his dying wish be that Obi Wan train Anakin (maybe that he went back for him instead? Maybe Qui Gon would have gone against the councils orders and gone back himself?), and no other Jedi seemed particularly eager to take up his cause... But then, the droid army wouldn't have been defeated- although, come to think of it, seeing as Amidala managed to capture the viceroy anyway, the only thing Anakin's wonder shot really achieved was that the Gungans would probably have got wiped out by the battle droids- with "Representative" Binks amongst them...

 

But then, the droid army wouldn't have been defeated- although, come to think of it, seeing as Amidala managed to capture the viceroy anyway, the only thing Anakin's wonder shot really achieved was that the Gungans would probably have got wiped out by the battle droids- with "Representative" Binks amongst them...

Is there time travel in Star Wars?

L8r

 

Did fate decide? What would've happened otherwise? Could this NOT be what the Force intended, and Qui-Gon somehow interfered with Fate which in turn had consequences for the future, perhaps negative?

Hud, great thread. Goes to what I think is one of the central themes in the saga. The heroes, especially the Jedi actively pursue what they believe is the Will of the Force.

I see the Will of the Force as a grand plan, whereas the particulars, the details are left up to the players. The Jedi meditate on the Will of the Force and, when they feel that they are being called to action, they roll into high gear; they choose the course of action that they think will best lead them to fulfilling the Will.

So, as far as Qui-Gon goes, I don?t think that his interference is necessarily the Will of the Force. He obviously has a role in Anakin?s destiny, but he?s taken matters into his own hands. The idea that the cube was weighted is a way to ?forgive? Qui-Gon for cheating. Kind of like, he had no choice b/c Watto is a dirty, lying cheat.

I also think that his actions did have negative consequences. His unwavering belief that Anakin was the Chosen One was coupled with his assumption that Anakin had to be trained as a Jedi. It?s a seemingly logical assumption on Qui-Gon?s part that the Chosen One should be trained as a Jedi, but there is nothing to show that this was required for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Qui-Gon?s actions getting Anakin off of Tat are paralleled (and continued) by Obi-Wan?s decision to take Anakin as a padawan. They have both come to the conclusion that in order to fulfill the Will of the Force they must take a certain deliberate action (as in train Anakin) But, that decision is theirs alone, and was not made by the Force. Ultimately, their decisions play a part in Anakin's downfall.

 

Or did the removal from his mother?

And, I'm not so sure the cube was rigged. Because I don't remember that in the novel, and it definitely isn't in the movie. Though, everybody has a great point about how angry Watto gets - that's no validation.

What if Shmi did get freed? I mean, Qui-Gon would have found a way to get him. I'm a bit curious, given the 'danger' around the boy, that nobody freed Shmi anyway just to ease that burden for him.

And why hasn't Anakin tried, or has he?

 

Does anyone know what the novel says?

I think it's pretty clear that Qui Gon used the Force to manipulate the chance cube, and that in doing so, he manipulated Anakin's destiny.

That's assuming the Force works through all things, even inanimate chance cubes.

 

>>>>That's assuming the Force works through all things, even inanimate chance cubes.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying- I think it's obvious that, had Qui Gon not manipulated the Force to get him off Tatooine, Anakin's destiny would have been very different.

>>>>The idea that the cube was weighted is a way to ?forgive? Qui-Gon for cheating. Kind of like, he had no choice b/c Watto is a dirty, lying cheat.

As I see it, this is a direct connection to Dooku. (Obviously that depends on how Dooku's character is "revealed" in Episode III.)
Qui Gon had the option of simply not taking Watto's bet and walking away,- but in order to have a chance of winning it and getting what he wanted, what he thought was the right thing, he had to resort to using what I would argue is the Dark Side.

It seems to me that Dooku has chosen the Dark Side because of it's power, but intends/intended to use it to bring down Darth Sidious- in other words, what he tells Obi Wan in AOTC is the truth. Whether he would have "given up" using his powers if he had succeeded or would have simply taken his place as the Sith Master is anybody's guess at this stage, but I'd love to see it addressed in Episode III..

 

Interesting thread.

I'm pretty sure it says either in the novel, or one of the thousands of Star Wars reference books, that the die was indeed weighted, which is why Watto is so astonished that he actually lost, and of course why he put Shmi as the weighted colour.

Just thought I'd add my two cents

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying- I think it's obvious that, had Qui Gon not manipulated the Force to get him off Tatooine, Anakin's destiny would have been very different.

I'm saying, do we know the Force works through all things? It exists in all living things, but does it take part in a conscious effort to control or effect fate? QGJ believes the Force to be a living conscious, like God, but the OT paints a different picture.

 

No novelization quotes, yet?

Stryphe, here ya go - this may be what you're looking for:

"The Force itself is split into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitve to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, et cetera. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it, or not."
-- George Lucas. Laurent Bouzereau, StarWars Episode I, The Making of The Phantom Menace

Personally, I think it does. I believe that it is still up to individuals to choose or not choose which effects destiny, like George says.

It is similar to St. Aquinas philosophies on destiny. Choice exists within destiny: Fate acts to bring people to crossroads - where they then act on that destiny or deny it. So, there is no true predestination, but predefined choices. It is rather complex, too much for my oratorical skills, but that is the basic concept.

So in the GFFA, individuals have destinies and the Force works to bring those about - then the person chooses to follow it or not.

In one thread a while back, someone had a great post about how the Force is already acting to correct Anakin's fall - by Padme falling in love and then with the birth of Twins. It was an excellent analysis.

And based on George's quote, I think that is true.

 

But that's different than "will of the Force". Non-SW example: Both Paul Atredis and Leto II in Dune were faced with hard choices because they had a destiny. But their destiny wasn't pre-ordianed by higher powers, it simply was. As a result, they could fight it or embrace it. But when QGJ starts talking about the "will of the Force" that things happened, he's referring to a consciousness at work. This isn't the same thing.

 

Yes. Choice and destiny coexist. And the Dune concept is the same as I described, as is the Greater Force which Lucas calls destiny.

What you are referring to comes from the Living Force that Lucas described in that quote, and I didn't really speak to it.

You see the two principles of the Force at odds in the opening scene of TPM:

Obi-Wan: I have a bad feeling about this.
QUI-GON: I don't sense anything.
Obi-Wan: It's not about the mission, Master. It's something elsewhere, elusive.
QUI-GON : Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs.
Obi-Wan: But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future.
QUI-GON: But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, young Padawan.

Mindful of the Greater Force, which is where destiny and fate is, but listening to the Will of the Force at the present.