The Clone Wars Ended 35 BBY. Where did this number come from?!

I've been trying to figure out how the Star Wars backstory(ies) worked before the prequels were made. This has involved studying the minutiae of scripts and other sources. In the Galactic Cartography thread a discussion of the Great Resynchronization contained mention of early EU sources having the Clone Wars end 35 years before SW4:

Where did the 35 BBY number come from? And when was it first used? The second edition of A Guide to the Star Wars Universe (the book Sarek is referring to) was published in 1994. So earlier sources are mostly what I'm interested in here. Is this same date in the first edition? I couldn't find anything in the Thrawn trilogy, though I may have missed something (and I didn't check the bits on Honoghr yet). Is there any mention in the Daley novels? The Lando novels? Early WEG projects? Film novelizations? The Marvel comics (Fenn Shysa and Tobbi Dala)?

Since this has to do with the Clone Wars, which were always a touchy subject for the early EU, did this number come from George Lucas?

And are there any other possibly Lucas-derived/approved calendar systems/dates I should know about?

 

I very much doubt it, as it the number was around the mid-90's then George had very little to do with it. We have to put this in the same basket as Timothy Zahn's own references to the Clone Wars in TTT.

I'm not sure if George actually refers to years, that seems to be more Steve or even Rick's job, he just needed TPM to be set at a certain time before ANH was to make everything sit right with himself.

 

That's real old and been retconned

 

Thing is, Zahn was originally going to call the noghri "Sith" and have C'Baoth be a clone of Obi-Wan, both of which Lucas specifically rejected. Anything that referenced the possible PT era had to be cleared. Lucas's backstory wasn't as detailed as a novel or script, but indications are that a rough sequence of events was worked out.

Also, the Making of Star Wars includes some 1977 notes by Lucas to be used by authors of the future EU. These notes don't make mention of a specific date for the Clone Wars (that I remember) but I suspect that there are probably more of these type of guidelines-from-on-high.

I think you missed the point.

 

No, no. Just stating the obvious.

 

But for all that, Zahn does refer to the Clone Wars, even if only in passing.

 

Quest, that's one possibility. You may want to check out my "Reconstructing the Backstories" thread in Saga. I came up with a similar number, so I could believe that some author had done the same. Still, I don't know if the script drafts and stuff I referred to were common knowledge at the time, so they may have required extra help from LFL.

Katana - and I suspect those mentions he did make had to be approved. As I understand it the authors had certain limits which mostly had to do with worldbuilding and the prequel era (to make sure nothing clashed). Some things had to be caught in editing, but others were probably approved or denied based on rules/guidelines established by LFL (and possibly Lucas himself, like those in TMOSW).

 

Heck, the original Han Solo trilogy refers to the Clone Wars.

 

Is there anything that suggests a date? Even a "it was so long ago" or "So-and-So fought in them" (and we know a bit about So-and-So's age) or anything?

 

I remember that being my impression at one time as well, but how that could ever have jived with his son being 20ish, I cannot imagine.

 

Coop, you may also want to check out my Backstory thread (link above). I put Annikin at around/at least 55 by ANH.


Anybody have the first edition of AGTTSWU, to check if the 35 BBY date is in there?

 

IIRC, the X-Wing Strategy Guide had the Clone Wars "decades" ago, and a gap between the end of the Clone Wars and Palpatine becoming Emperor.

 

Yeah, from what I can tell the Clone Wars were supposed to have taken place a while before young Darth (as Annikin and he are separate characters in this version of the story) hooks up with the Empire and helps hunt down the Jedi. A lot of sources seem to assume this, and cataloguing them is welcome. What I'm attempting to ascertain, though, is if this timeline came from LFL and specifically from Lucas (and if so, when this was handed down), or if it's a case of one author doing some back-of-the-envelope math and everyone else following along.

 

Yeah. There's no real reason Luke and Leia's birth had to coincide with the end of the Clone Wars and/or the formation of the Empire, either. Luke and Leia's conception was implied to take place before Anakin's turn, and we knew Obi-Wan referred to Vader as a "young Jedi"... but that didn't have to mean he was in his early twenties when he sired them. Thirty could have easily still been considered "young" for a Jedi. Especially when you've got Masters like Yoda walking around.

 

I wouldn't rule the possibility out, that ANH taking place 35 years after the (end of) the clone-wars isn't based on the Thrawn-trilogy.

Consider the following: DarkForceRising takes place five years after ROTJ and nine years after ANH. According to the Noghri, at that point of time, their world had been devastated for 44 Imperial/standard years. 44 - 9 = 35. Considering, that shortly after Vader was supposed to show up and that at that point the clone-wars must have ended (for there to be an empire and Vader and Kenobi having their falling-out) and it would be logical to assume, that the war must have ended by then.

 

This backstory seems to have originated around the original film, in which Darth Vader and Annikin Skywalker (hence why it's spelt differently) were separate people. They seem to have had separate ages, as well. As far as I can infer, Annikin was like the Luke to Obi-Wan's Han Solo, while Darth was "a boy" (according to the shooting script, IIRC) when Ben was training him. So Vader would be somewhere between, say, five and twenty (this is old-man Ben describing him as a "boy" so I'd go with a wide age range). Because there are few clues to original-Vader's age, I sort of use the eventual-prequel age and place him at Luke's age (twenties) or so when he turns. So long story short, Annikin would have been around 55 in ANH (if he were alive) and Vader would be in his forties.

When Vader and Annikin were combined, there were two obvious ways to harmonize their ages. Make Annikin younger, or make Vader older. Lucas seems to have done the latter, which was relatively easy because like I said there were few specifics given to Vader that would preclude it. The only sticking point (besides Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" stuff) was that Vader was described as "young." But Annikin was younger than Ob-Wan from the start anyway (just not as young as original-Vader, I would argue), so this is a reasonable handwave.

I mention that because it means that the 1977-era backstory for Obi-Wan, Annikin, Darth Vader, etc mostly still works and appears to still be in place (in terms of their ages and a general timeline) until it's changed in the prequels. So any early EU, if it references that era at all (and was approved the way they say it had to be), probably is working with that general backstory.

I'm just trying to figure out if the specific number came from Lucas or somewhere else. It's essentially looking for evidence of Markan priority or a Q Source in the early EU, except it's Lucasian priority.

You guys who are discussing timelines and ages, PLEASE come to the Saga forum! It's fun, I promise! Okay, it's mostly nitpicking... but that's just like Lit!

Aha! Thank you. I thought maybe there'd be some information forthcoming from Honoghr.

There could be a problem with Vader showing up "shortly" thereafter, because young Darth was presumably in Jedi training at some point, and Luke can only be born about twenty years before the OT. So there is a span between 35 and 20 within which Darth is trained, defects, learns the dark side (not necessarily in that order) and helps the Empire hunt down the Jedi (killing Annikin, placing an upper limit on Luke's age).

Arright, so we have a source referencing the 35 year date from 1992 (though it's unclear whether this is specifically referenced as relating to the Clone Wars or their end, in DFR). Is that the earliest we can go?

Also, I'd like to find out if this number (if its earliest appearance is indeed DFR) comes from Zahn's own arithmetic, or if it was the word from Lucasfilm, and George Lucas especially.

Have any authors ever spoken about the details of the background info they were given by LFL? I know some of Zahn's initial ideas were shot

 

Well if it's from a WEG source it must come from one the earlier ones.

Anyone want to check their old WEG stuff?

 

We could just ask Pablo. Where is he?

 

Good idea. I sent him a PM.

 

Page 56 of the Gamemaster Screen Revised has a timeline with 35 BSW4 stated as the end date for the Clone Wars.

 

The GM Screen Revised postdates the GSWU 2E by several years.

 

Going off ANH alone, I think you're absolutely right. In fact, had Vader not been Luke's father, we may have ended up with a prequel trilogy rooted in an Episode I in which Qui-Gon -> Obi-Wan (and he didn't die), Obi-Wan -> Annikin and Vader -> Young Podracer we know.

Though Lucas making Anakin younger to keep in line with "young Jedi" only seems to have occurred after RotJ. I cannot believe Lucas intended for Vader to be in his forties when he cast Sebastian Shaw! And the RotJ novel, presumably knowing what it's talking about, makes a point to call the unmasked Vader an "old man".

Vader as a "young Jedi" when he turned dark (assuming we mean early twenties) doesn't work with the original timeframe for the Clone Wars.

Why not Georgian Priority? (Or, if we wanna keep it Biblical, George Lucan Priority)