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Lit The Curious Case of Hutt Space being an (Over)sector

Discussion in 'Literature' started by GrandMoffTrachta, Sep 10, 2023.

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Hutt Space Designation?

Poll closed Oct 10, 2023.
  1. Independent Polity influenced by Imperial Decree

    7 vote(s)
    58.3%
  2. A part or extension of the Baxel (Over)sector

    5 vote(s)
    41.7%
  3. Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. GrandMoffTrachta

    GrandMoffTrachta Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2022
    Hi All!

    This post is going to be a discussion on the relationship of Hutt Space proper (that is, that quirky, double-pointed region on the map we are all familiar with) and it being or not being an official Imperial sector/oversector.

    The goal of this post is to go over what we know, some conflicting information or at least conflicting scraps of information, and trying to rectify them, and even discussing how the Empire would have further developed the situation.

    As always my friends, let us first go over what we know:

    1. That during the Clone Wars and for the first few years of Imperia Reign, Hutt Space was was a part of the vast Trans-Nebular Oversector, ruled by Grand Moff Byluir. Now, what became of Byluir, and any biographical information about him, are completely empty.

    2. Said Oversector presumably became integrated into Oversector Outer, if not wholesale, then at least de facto a client OS of it (I made a post about how confusing Outer is in relation to other established OSs in the Outer Rim)

    3. Under official Imperial records, the entirety of Hutt Space proper was integrated into the newly made Baxel (Over)sector, with its capital designated as Teth.

    4. Wookiepedia names the Baxel sector as an Oversector. I find it hard to believe that, when you look at said article at the boarders of the BS, that that can constitute as an OS or Priority Sector. Granted, apparently the Kessel Sector was designated an Oversector, but that's a story for a different day...

    Cool. So we have came to the conclusion that Hutt Space proper is a large, awkward, yet official region of the Baxel Sector, ruled by a Moff from Teth.

    But by all accounts, the Hutt Space proper region of said sector is not as official as one might think.

    1. When one looks at any official Star Wars galactic map, they will note that Hutt Space is carved out and displayed in a way that indicates that it is not integrated into the Galactic Empire, but is instead its own independent and autonomous region. Note that, lore-wise, similar regions under similar circumstances (Such as the Tapani Sector, Centrality {in some cases}, and the Greater Tion, are in fact incorporated under Imperial boarders, with no distinction of them being carved out as an independent nationstate like Hutt Space.

    2. The Imperial POV "claim" of Hutt Space Proper being a part of the Baxel sector is dubious at best.

    3. That Moff Shild is labeled a Moff, and not a Grand Moff. This is notable, and seems to fly in the face of Hutt Space/Baxel being an Oversector, though in theory an OS could be ran by a mere Moff.

    Okay, so we have some more insight on how "official" Hutt Space's designation as an Imperial holding is, and how serious it as, at least, during the time of the Galactic Civil War.

    ...But what would have happened after the war? Or, if Moff Shild's sudden burst of mania was enough to fully subjugate Hutt Space and the Hutt Cartel as an official Imperial subject?

    Would Hutt Space be divided up into further sectors, all answerable to a (new) Oversector that lords over them, ruling from Teth? Could this Oversector parallel the boarders of the Trans-Nebular Oversector?

    EDIT: I don't know how to properly format quotes on this board, but all of the text in this post labelled as quotes are from the Lords of Nal Hutta sourcebook of the FFG SWRP. I can provide page numbers for each one if asked!
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2023
  2. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2016
    I always view The Hutt Cartel as a Matter of "De facto vs De Jure"
    The Empire (And I like to think Republic before them), may have had legal claims to the territory, but had never been able to fully make it work in practice. With the Crime Syndicates constantly having greater pull, and the Senate on Coruscant already overstretched. Any attempts to fully integrate it often proved impractical or was halfhearted.

    Don't know if that answered your question, Imperial bureaucracy is confusing.
     
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  3. HMTE

    HMTE Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2021
    Hutt Space was long a cancer on the face of the galaxy, serving as a breeding ground and place of semi-refuge for the more persistent criminal elements. Despite this the Jedi were known during the Old Republic period to have been able to operate to some small extent in Hutt Space, having undergone missions to Nar Shadaa and other Hutt worlds.

    Despite this, Qui Gon and the Naboo Royal Party had to act with guile and subtlety when securing Anakin's freedom while on Tatooine, which was within Hutt Space during the last years of the Republic. This, combined with the fact that they could not/did not save Shmi Skywalker from slavery, implies that there was a sort of de facto willingness on the part of both the Republic and the Hutts to allow a certain amount of cross border interference in one another's affairs so long as it was not too obvious and didn't push things too far.

    This might also be a byproduct of the inherently feudal nature of Hutt society. The Kajidics, operating as crime families, were de facto feudal fiefs. As such, different Hutt "lords" would have differing levels of tolerance for Jedi and Republic interference.

    Despite the fact that the Hutts sided with the Republic in the Clone Wars, its worth noting that, with the wars end, the newly formed Galactic Empire wound up carving off huge chunks of Hutt Space and incorporating it into Imperial Space as sectors governed by Imperial Moffs.

    Despite this de jure change to the maps and the de facto appointment of Imperial governors to worlds like Tatooine, it would appear this had little affect on the Hutt's operations.

    Indeed, Jabba continued to live and rule on Tatooine despite the planet changing hands from the Hutts to the Empire.

    This reinforces the notion of de jure vs de facto reality.

    One can argue that this was likely a byproduct of the political juggling game Palpatine was playing. The New Order portrayed itself as bringing law and civilization to the chaotic cesspit of the Outer Rim. Bringing the Hutts to heal, (or, at least, appearing to) while cutting them down to size likely would have been a huge boost to the Empire's credibility, as the Hutts were nearly universally loathed.

    However, one can imagine that Palpatine's agents approached the Hutt Council and soothed their egos by brokering the deal that allowed them to operate virtually unopposed so long as the Empire got a cut of the profits and so long as the Hutts were at least somewhat subtle in their operations.

    This deal was clearly a tenuous one, one that had to be re-brokered, and re-negotiated over the years as events played out.

    Hutt Space, I think, could best be described as an Imperial Client State. De jure independent, but paying heavy tribute to the Empire on Coruscant. The relationship, no doubt, waxed and waned, with planetary governors and crime lords switching in power/subservience as the situation developed.

    But this raises the question of why the Hutts were tolerated. Some might point to the failure of the Pius Dea Crusades to stamp out the Hutts as an historical example. The failure to stamp them out after a thousand years of crusades demonstrated that the Hutts were either too stubborn or too resilient to be fully conquered.

    I, however, argue that it was simply down to a combination of Imperial greed and laziness. The Hutts were well entrenched in their main territories clustered around Nal Hutta. This much is clear, as not even the Vong were able to completely clean them out. The Empire had just been through a tough war with the Separatists. I don't think Palpatine was overly interested in fighting a war with the Hutts. He did not control the Hutts, and unlike the Rebels they were too rich and well placed to be crushed without a significant investment on the Empire's part. So it was easier to buy them off.
     
  4. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Hutt Space was forcibly reduced though, which provides some differences.

    The territory that remains is split between sectors along the Outer Rim, the Kreetan Narrows having been annexed, and then Hutt Space proper. It's definitely an Oversector in some manner, but its unique because the Hutts literally don't care about the Empire... or kid themselves anyway that it's not relevant.

    More maddening is quantifying how many sectors would have been carved out of Hutt Space.
     
  5. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    I always assumed that Hutt space, including Tatooine, was all stuff that used to be independent in the Republic years but was annexed as part of the "Reconquest of the Rim" campaigns after the end of the Clone Wars. With the practical result being that nothing really changes, except the Hutt lords now have a few new people to bribe,* and every now and then an Imperial away team shows up and burns down a homestead.*

    * Which they can easily afford.

    ** But not a homestead belonging to anyone the Hutts care about.
     
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  6. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Honestly, I think this is just inherent in how organized crime works.

    The thing about gangsters is that unlike terrorists, insurgents, revolutionaries, or whatever you want to call politically motivated criminals, they aren't trying to overturn the social order. They're just trying to make money. And they're usually very happy to keep the authorities happy with bribes, and/or do favors for them on the side. Which means the authorities are very prone to seeing them as the lesser evil: no matter what the current situation is, there's always people out there that are viewed as a more urgent problem. Or at least a more politically interesting one.

    The Hutts vs the central galactic government are just that on a galactic scale. They're always going to be at the bottom of the priority list next to whoever Coruscant is currently fighting a war against.
     
  7. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Priority Sectors/oversectors are military designations, remember that. With that in mind, you can easily have an Oversector include territory de jure politically independent of the Empire.
     
  8. HMTE

    HMTE Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2021
    One thing worth noting about the carving up of Hutt Space by the Empire is the question; why did the Hutts settle for that? They're a proud, ancient species after all.

    If one looks at a lot of the maps of the Star Wars galaxy throughout the millennia, be it a map from the Pius Dea Crusades, or the Great Hyperspace War, or the Jedi Civil War, Hutt Space very rarely changed in size. The borders shift from one era to the next, but by and large it was roughly the same size in the same general area.

    The map of the Galaxy during the Clone Wars denoting the major factions at the start of the war implies that Hutt Space had exploded in size by the time of the Clone Wars, with de jure control over a large chunk of the far Galactic South East and conflicting control over areas to the west of their core territories with the Separatists and the Republic. Here is that map for reference. https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/s...actions.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120323132926

    With that said, take a look at this map of the Republic Sector Armies. https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/s..._Armies.png/revision/latest?cb=20150308224731

    Note the dotted line indicated as the borders of the Hutt's sphere of influence. And that this sphere of influence is separate from Hutt Space proper, which is much smaller. Most of the territory they lose was this sphere of influence. Most of their core territory is untouched and unchanged from Republic to Empire.

    So it seems like the relationship between the Empire and the Hutts was less "we're taking most of your territory and leaving you a pitiful rump-state" and more "your colonial possessions are now our colonial possessions. The flags and the money have changed, but feel free to keep doing what you're doing."

    If anything this might be a benefit for the Hutts. It's probably cheaper to sit back and conduct their "business" while the Imperials do the hard work of infrastructure management and resource development.
     
  9. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I can see that.

    There is definitely an inner core to the Hutt territories, and then an expanded regime.

    That expanded territory was lost to the Empire, and not taken back, though their influence remained fairly powerful.

    One of my favourite Legends asides is that Grand Admiral Pitta's warlord fiefdom existed rimward of Hutt Space before he took Corellia. Which is fairly nifty.
     
  10. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2001
    I always saw the Empire and Hutts as more in cahoots then otherwise suggested above.

    In the Republic Era, the relationship between Galactic Governance/Jedi and the Hutts would/could be frosty and laced with peril.

    Comparatively, the Imperial position of exploitation would make a relationship with Hutt operations beneficial. The Hutts, as well, could see a galactic scale moral/ethic spotlight lifted from them.

    As such, I would see the Hutts embracing a relationship with the Empire over the Republic, and this embrace allowed the Empire to dictate policies it wished, without resorting to occupation forces and major operations in Hutt Space. The Hutts gained a freedom of movement, provided the right palms were greased.

    As to the actual territory of the Hutts...I always saw that as something of an arbitrary construction of galactic map makers, particularly during the Imperial era. I would wonder if the official Imperial maps would even concede the existence of such "space" on their maps, or if it is just a rough estimate of "this is where the Hutts can get away with the most stuff right now". If the Hutts were afforded any level of official autonomy, I would expect to see it in representation...a Hutt ambassador to the Imperial Court...and a Hutt Moff or Governor, etc. To my knowledge, there are not such things. As such, I would assume the Hutts to be considered loyal subjects of the Empire, under Imperial jurisdiction, carrying out their business in the ways they see fit, and the Empire turns it's head away beyond acceptance of that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2023
  11. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    Maybe they just made Hutt Space an Oversector as part of an effort to contain the Hutts. They know the influence they have and that they can't just take them out. But they can keep them in check.
     
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  12. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    You can have free reign as long as its in this area of space. Just don't cause obvious issues, and make sure that tribute keeps rolling in. If we have to take a stance, then we'll make sure we smash targets you're happy for us to do so.

    I imagine that the money from Hutt Space must have been an incredible boon. The secession of Hutt Space after Endor, let alone the Corporate Sector, would undoubtedly have crippled the Empire's economy, ignoring that most of the Outer Rim and the resources from there were lost.
     
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  13. GrandMoffTrachta

    GrandMoffTrachta Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2022
    The Hutts seceded after Endor? I know they were in turmoil after Jabba's death, but I did not know that.
     
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  14. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Hutt Space went independent in Legends after Endor. In Canon it has a civil war.
     
  15. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Agreed. I mean, there are bits and pieces everywhere, but is made especially clear in Solo that the Empire works hand in hand with the big crime syndicates to exploit the people. Sure, the empire blasts them sometimes and the criminals steal from them sometimes, just as the syndicates due to each despite being nominally allied or like what happens within the empire and syndicates, but overall they get along.

    Even more so in the Crimson Dawn arc in the comics where we see that the mere rumor that the Empire was going to replace the Hutts as their number 1 partners was enough to start a war between the syndicates, and where Palpatine had all the major crime leaders on speed-dial.
     
  16. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Rereading this now;

    Knowing how feudal Hutt society was and how various clans were prone to vendettas with each other at least in the old EU, I always figured that, regardless of what the Hutt Ruling Council's official stance was, feuding kajidics would find ways to translate their rivalry into supporting different sides of the Republic/Separatist conflict. That would give plenty of ammunition to Imperials arguing that you can't trust them, that there'll always be somebody in Hutt space supporting your enemies even if the official stance is they're on your side, and therefore somebody needs to cut them down to size.

    (In the HST, Besadii had a really cozy relationship with the Empire as its primary supplier of slaves, while Desilijic was the faction willing to back Bria Tharen, so I'd have guessed Besadii would be the pro-Republic ones and Desilijic would be the pro-Separatist one. Once the TCW movie comes along you have to flip that, but then I basically conider that different/NuCanon continuity).
     
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  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Thousands of years of tradition, as well as a deep political conservatism and cautiousness. The Hutts are powerful, but they tend to work with the reigning government, or at least they don't seek to antagonize it. If the empire carves up some lines on a map and says its an oversector headed by a Moff somewhere-so long as business isn't hampered and the Hutts themselves aren't attacked then why challenge it?

    If anything it gives an "in" with the government on Coruscant-contacts, options for bribery, and blackmail and so on.

    The Hutts don't generally pick fights with whoever rules on Coruscant, unless directly and explicitly under threat.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2023