The Darkside is not evil, when used moderately

The Sith are evil, but the Darkside isn't: the PT Jedi's problem:

"It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and the he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the Dark Side of the Force, the story meting transcripts suggest that although can't see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training, Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start to use him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection. In this episode Luke should embody the classic tale of the ugly duckling who becomes a hero, and by the end of the film Luke should have become Ben."
- Annotated Screenplays

After reading this somewhere else on the forums, that "Jedi" force-powers like telekinesis and foresight are of the Dark Side according to the Star Wars creator, I came to the conclusion above.

The Darkside isn't Evil. Only the ABUSE of it is evil. Just as abuse of the Light Side can also be viewed as evil.


Light Side= Acceptance (more selfless)
Dark Side= Choice (more selfish)


To have the pure Dark Side is what the Sith do. They focus just on their self, their desires, their values, their way. This is greed, separating the self from the oneness and openess that the Force, and life, truly is. Once you open yourself to it, to use its powers, so much power keeps flowing into you that it begins to reshape your mind and influence your actions, to control and transform you, which makes them beleieve they are superior and cut themselves off from all other lifeforms that they think of as inferior. This is one form of evil.

The pure Light Side is accepting everything, never doing anything, inaction, ignorance. To not have a heart, and only do one's duty or fullfill one's destiny in the big picture. This describes most of the Jedi for the PT. They are afraid of attachment, and the emotions it brings such as fear, despair, and anger. Most of them do not know how to fight, or fight well. They only help when it is their duty, which is assigned by a corrupt Senate that ignores outlying worlds like Naboo, Tattoine, and the thousands of planets that joined the Confederacy. The Jedi try to be inhuman. This is another form of evil.


The Jedi Order is reformed by Yoda and Obi-wan Kenobi through the guidance of Qui-gon Jinn, who then pass on these teachings to Luke Skywalker. Only after Qui-gon started to reveal his secrets to Yoda and Obi-wan do they begin to accept having feelings again. It is to have a BALANCE of the Light Side and the Dark Side inside yourself. To accept some things, but still wanting to change other things throught the Force. Have selfish desires, and emotions, but without letting them take control of you and becoming completely selfish, like the Sith do.

And if you let your self "fade away," but at the same time to still have love to keep that connection to the living, you no longer live in a contained body but in the interconnecting life energy of others that binds the galaxy together, your self is freed from the body and only attached to the Force itself, giving you eternal life to forever guide all those who are just willing to listen. The Sith can not achieve this because they only love themselves with no love for others, and the PT Jedi don't allow themselves to love anything at all.


The imbalance in the Force was caused by both Jedi and Sith. What George Lucas said was still true, Balance was achieved when Anakin Skywalker destroyed the Sith, w

 

You have stabbed at one of the central themes, well done.

As Obi-Wan says on Mustafar, an absolute is evil. Both Jedi and Sith themselves are absolutes. One beging solid black, the other solid white. There is no gray. Both the Jedi and Sith see things black and white. Anakin in contrast only sees shades of gray.

He destroys the Jedi.
Then he destroys the Sith.

In the ruins, his son is able to create a more balanced group of force users.

-Seldon

 

To be frank, you have missed the point of Star Wars and the Force entirely. The true protagonist of the Saga is the Living Force and the villain is the Darkness. That is why victory comes only when the Son of Suns destroys the Darkness from within once and for all time.

As for balance, it is not the same amount of good and evil in the universe, but rather the Chosen One himself is the balance, the mediator between the Living Force and all life in the universe. Having been conceived by the Midi-Chlorians, He replaces the role they once served becoming a more perfect conduct for the Living Force.

 

"That is why victory comes only when the Son of Suns destroys the Darkness from within once and for all time."

Darkness can never be destroyed from any place for any amount of time. The Sith Order was destroyed, but not darkness. All humans have good and evil within themselves. Sometimes the good can triumph, at other times evil is the victor. The two battle each other but they are always together. One can defeat the darkness from within (what Anakin eventually does) but one can never destroy that darkness, it is always there.

-Seldon

 

Agreed, darkness is part of live. But you have to understand it's way. Like the night it will come and go, from time to time. However, it isn't here to stay.

The evil in it is wanting to avoid this darkness (fear of loss) or wanting to destroy this (non acceptance towards loss). This way one becomes schrouded in darkness because by doing so one is denying the truth, that darkness is a part of this life. But seen in it's proper light that darkness isn't half as bad as the denying of it. That's the difference between darkness and evil IMO.

 

If what you say is true, Seldon, then the entire Life of Skywalker was in vain, and his stoy meaningless. But if I am right, and all those that hold to the Living Force, then the Son of Suns really was a savior to a galaxy far, far away.

 

I have no doubt that Skywalker is the savior--the messiah of GFFA. His life wan't in vain. By destroying the Jedi and the Sith, he allowed a new and stronger order to replace them, the New Jedi Order. He allowed the corrupt Republic to fall and a new, stronger government would take shape (it has yet to be built in the EU world, but in time--it will.)

Yet, what you propose is that he destroys evil forever. That isn't true. He dramatically changes the very fabric of the time he lives in, but he doesn't change time forever. He brings balance to the force, but I have no doubt it will fall to imbalance again. Anakin Skywalker is the cosmic adjuster if you will. He changed things in his own time.

 

It is true that Luke lives off his emotions more - in The Truce At Bakura he doesn't fight off his attraction to Gaeriel, and even accepts that Yoda's teachings can take a back seat while he struggles for his life against the parasites.

Going off the essay, we can see that the Jedi Order themselves are responsible for the Purges. Reform was needed, but the Order couldn't see this and refused to change, and this stoicism allowed the Sith to rise. As Matt Stover writes in the Revenge of the Sith book, Yoda realises that the Sith have evolved, training to fight a new war, whereas the Jedi are training to refight the same war of a thousand years ago.

Anakin's fall can be looked at as shades of grey as you say. If the Jedi Order embraced emotion and personality more, maybe Anakin would have found peace and acceptance with the Order, but as it stood he turned to the Sith. He wasn't good and he wasn't evil, his views were merely a darker shade of grey than the Jedi were prepared to accept, so in the absence of a comfortable choice, he chose the least painful (and was obviously wrong)

 

The key term is "USING" the Force is evil. When you move something or use foresight you are using the Force as a tool. That is of the darkside.

Using the lightside of the Force simply involves listening to it and following where it guides you.

 

so if i use the force to open the door when my hands are full, i am evil...

 

Tion_Meddon bravo! agree with you completely dude!

i have no clue where the idea that Living Force is the complete absence of darkness/evil is coming from. how can you possibly know something is good without the bad? how can you recognize light without the darkness? the Living Force from what i can understand from the films encompasses both the good and the darkside-- hence Living Force.

it was said that the good side is passive, the dark side aggressive. being too aggressive is evil, that much is obvious. but inaction in the name of passivity is just as bad. it applies in SW, it applies to real life as well.

one of Lucas' inspiration on the concept of the Force was the Yin&Yang philosophy, a dualistic philosophy of passive and active, good and bad, light and dark, positive and negative, etc., and that they are in opposition, each is part of the whole and works together. both are equal and necessary for harmony.

that's why it was so important of the Jedi to find the Chosen One to bring Force into balance, i'm sure they're aware that things arent what they were and that the dark side is rising like a storm brewing in the horizon, but what they dont seem to realize is that they contribute to this imbalance by doing nothing, or sticking to their narrowminded views of doing things "bussiness as usual". the Jedi needed "balancing" too and Anakin did that by helping the Sith to succeed. he then counteracted the Sith's abuse of the Force by vanquishing them. that leaves our good guys a chance to rebuild the Republic in an atmosphere of a more "balanced" Force and is not lopsided towards one side or the other.

this gives special relevance to Yoda's prophecy that Luke is the last of the Jedi. its a prompt for Luke to build a new order based on a more balance practice of the Force and to learn from the mistakes of the Jedi and perhaps adapt some practices of the Sith that is not destructive. (at this point i am not counting on anything from the EU since many of what the Movie Saga now stands for actually discredits it).

 

The Darkside is not evil, when used moderately

I'm sorry I can't agree on that, that is just such a massive contradiction. Good thinking, but inherently flawed.

 

>>>>one of Lucas' inspiration on the concept of the Force was the Yin&Yang philosophy, a dualistic philosophy of passive and active, good and bad, light and dark, positive and negative, etc., and that they are in opposition, each is part of the whole and works together. both are equal and necessary for harmony.

I don't think that this is really borne out by the films. (I don't recall Lucas ever mentioning it in any interviews I've read either, come to think of it.)

If the Force was supposed to be portrayed as a dualistic concept, don't you think that at some point in the six films, out of over 12 hours of cinema, he might have bothered to mention both sides of this duality? The Dark Side is mentioned in every single film- the Light Side is never mentioned.

Instead, the Jedi talk about "The Force." The implication is that the Jedi embrace the Force in it's entirety; the Sith talk about the power of the Dark Side- something they actively seek out. The Jedi avoid the Dark Side, because of it's all-consuming nature- you can't be mindful of the Force as a whole and also walk down the Dark Path; the two aren't opposite sides of the same thing, but they are mutually exclusive philosophies. "Once you start down the Dark path..."

(Mind you, having said all that he never mentions the opposing philosphy to the Living Force in the films...)

 

SomeRandomNerd posted on 6/7/05 9:00am

---

[i]>>>>one of Lucas' inspiration on the concept of the Force was the Yin&Yang philosophy, a dualistic philosophy of passive and active, good and bad, light and dark, positive and negative, etc., and that they are in opposition, each is part of the whole and works together. both are equal and necessary for harmony.[/i]

I don't think that this is really borne out by the films. (I don't recall Lucas ever mentioning it in any interviews I've read either, come to think of it.) [hr][/blockquote]

he does. that's where i heard of the Yin&Yang philosophy in the first place. in fact Lucas made a running joke that where he's from "we're all a little Buddhist up here" (and for which i'm sure he meant Taoist ;))


[blockquote][link=http://boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=SomeRandomNerd][b]SomeRandomNerd[/b][/link] [b]posted on 6/7/05 9:00am[/b][hr]
If the Force was supposed to be portrayed as a dualistic concept, don't you think that at some point in the six films, out of over 12 hours of cinema, he might have bothered to mention [i]both[/i] sides of this duality? The Dark Side is mentioned in every single film- the Light Side is never mentioned. [hr][/blockquote]

from the Luke and Leia conversation in ROTJ:

LEIA
But, why must you confront him?

LUKE: Because...there is good in him. I've felt it. I can turn him back to the [i][b]good side[/b][/i]. I have to try.

there's also another part in the ROTJ script that Obi-Wan mentions the "good side" but obviously didnt make it to the screen.

besides, must it have to be spelled out for you in every single frame and dialogue that there is a Light/Good Side as there is the Dark? i think it would take simple common sense to figure out that Obi-Wan, Luke and company are fighting the Dark Side, therefore whose side do you think they're on? the Lower East Side? ;)

[blockquote][link=http://boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=SomeRandomNerd][b]SomeRandomNerd[/b][/link] [b]posted on 6/7/05 9:00am[/b][hr]
Instead, the Jedi talk about "The Force." The implication is that the Jedi embrace the Force in it's entirety; the Sith talk about the power of the Dark Side- something they actively seek out. The Jedi avoid the Dark Side, because of it's all-consuming nature- you can't be mindful of the Force as a whole and also walk down the Dark Path; the two aren't opposite sides of the same thing, but they are mutually exclusive philosophies. "Once you start down the Dark path..."

(Mind you, having said all that he never mentions the opposing philosphy to the Living Force in the films...)
[hr][/blockquote]
that's the shortcomings of the OTs that the PTs have fleshed out, the Jedi are not avoiding the Dark Side itself, but moreso the wrongful practice of its abuse. unfortunately the terms "Dark Side" and "Sith" seemed interchangable, which of course shouldnt be the case. the Jedi uses aggression when they fight, so what makes them any different from the Sith then? its the [i]purpose[/i] of why they use agression and the habitual practice of meditating to pull them back from the Dark Side. that's how they achieve balance. if they meditate too much and doesnt do anything tangible to fight the threat then its just as bad if not worse. notice how often the word "meditate" was used by the Jedi in the PTs? and how did they end up at the end of ROTS? see what i mean?

 

(Opens mouth in awe at Tion_Meddon's wisdom)

 

(Opens mouth in awe at Tion_Meddon's wisdom)
(Closes kainangmar's mouth)

The Darkside isn't Evil. Only the ABUSE of it is evil. Just as abuse of the Light Side can also be viewed as evil.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.
Technically speaking, the Force is simply an energy field that binds all living things together.
There is, in and of itself, no "good" or "bad" side....it is rather one object, the Unifying Force.
The "dark side" is simply a perversion of the Unifying Force, a corruption of it.
The dark side is evil. The light side is good. The Force is a tool that can be used for either.

To have the Dark Side is what the Sith do. They focus just on their self, their desires, their values, their way. This is greed. Once you open yourself to it, to use its powers, so much power keeps flowing into you that it begins to reshape your mind and influence your actions, which makes them beleieve they are superior and cut themselves off from all other lifeforms that they think of as inferior.
More or less acceptable. Moving on....

The Light Side is accepting everything, never doing anything, inaction, ignorance.
No. Absolutely not. The light side is rejecting evil, doing what is right, virtue, knowledge of truth. What you have described here is not the "light side", but rather an abuse of the Force....simply another type of the dark side.

This describes most of the Jedi for the PT. They are afraid of attachment, and the emotions it brings such as fear, despair, and anger. The Jedi try to be inhuman.
Again, no. The Jedi of the PT are not afraid of attatchment. They simply recognize the tendancy towards evil that attatchments can bring, and thus seek to avoid them entirely in order to live a more virtuous life. They are, in fact, trying to be more fully human. To rule their passions, and not to let their passions rule over them, as animals would. And they do make exceptions, if necessary. Ki-Adi-Mundi, for example, has a family of his own living back on his homeworld. The Jedi discourage attatchment to possessions because they can be dangerous, but do not entirely forbid them under all circumstances.

The Sith can not achieve this because they only love themselves with no love for others, and the PT Jedi don't allow themselves to love anything at all.
The PT Jedi are allowed to love. But love does not require unnecessary attatchment. All of our material possessions of this life will ultimately be completely worthless when compared to our eternal life after death. This is what the Jedi recognize. "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."

The imbalance in the Force was caused by both Jedi and Sith.
Nope. The imbalance in the Force was caused by the Sith. The Dark Side is imbalance. Evil is not a force of its own. It is only a corruption, destruction, or lack of good. Evil cannot exist in and of itself. Evil cannot exist without good, without something to corrupt. But good can exist without evil. That is where balance and peace are found. The Light Side is the state of natural balance. The Dark Side destroys that.
Light Side = Good = Natural = Order = Unifying = Normal = Balance
Dark Side = Evil = Unnatural = Disordering = Destruction of Good = Unbalanced

 

Rev only sith deal in such absolutes!

 

First of all, when talking about the nature of the force, only things in the movies should be considered. Otherwise there will be constant contradiction. I don't care about Bakura or Ki-Adi's family or whatever else.
Here goes...





The Dark Side is called "Dark" for a reason. The Dark Side is evil. Period. The Sith follow only the Dark Side. They want power for themselves, at any cost. It is with this goal that the Sith conduct all of their actions, and this is "pure evil." Since the ultimate goal of the Sith (any Dark Side follower) is to maintain power, they have two ultimate powers revealed in Revenge:

1. To cheat death. A Sith wants power for themself, and cannot have this if they are dead. So Palpatine keeps himself alive using the Dark Side.
2. To create life. As is witnessed by Dooku, Vader, and Sidious trying to convince Obi, Luke, and Luke, respectively, to join them, a Sith cannot maintain power without an apprentice. Since Palps wants all the Jedi except Anakin and his descendents dead, we can surmise that apprentices born of the force make the best apprentices.

The Dark Side is also aware of all of the Force. In order to get what they want, the Sith must know how to get it. This is the "broader view of the force" which Palps tells Ani about.



The "good side" Luke refers to encompasses all those with good intent, both the PT Jedi, and followers of the "Living Force."

The PT Jedi: As Anakin says in Episode 2, the Jedi encourage love, but don't allow attachment. They only allow a general, all-encompassing love, a love removed from reality in effect, one which does not see specific need, but only the greater good, ignoring that the greater good is made up of the specific needs of many. This is all good and well, it is not another version of the Dark Side, it has good intent, but it also is ineffectual. It does not prevent wars, and it blinds the Jedi to the approach of the Sith.

Followers of the Living Force are aware of all of the Force, and have good intentions. And of course since the Force flows through everything, then to understand everything, to be aware of all of the Force, one must have earthly attachments. Only when you are attached to something, can you know what is in it's best interest. In Episode 1, how can the Jedi know that Palpatine only wants power and does not have the attachment to his subjects which he should, when they themselves do not know attachment to his subjects?!?

The ultimate power that Qui-Gonn, Yoda, and Obi-Wan attain as followers of the Living Force is to remain alive after death, as so to continue to help the greater good. They do not do this by spliting the difference between good and evil, they split the difference between the physical world and the Force which flows through it, both of which they are fully emmersed in and attached to.


And so when Anakin forms an attachment to his mother or to Padme, and the Jedi don't allow attachment, and then he thinks they are going to die, and he is given the option to keep her alive, his love for her is quickly warped into lust for power, the Dark Side. "Love won't save you. Only my new powers will." Of course it is not the PT Jedis fault that he falls to the Dark Side. Yoda tells Anakin that he must allow death to occur, that death will not truly seperate them, that those who die are to be envied, but this does not register with Anakin, who already has a lust for power.


*****************************


In short, good and evil are only in our intentions, but good intentions without knowledge, wisdom and understanding leads to spiritual blindness.