The Empire only lasted 23 years?

Seems an awfully short time for on eof the most evil and tyrannical organizations of all time.

 

The Empire only lasted 23 years?

Yes.

 

The Nazis lasted about half of that...

Though to be fair, unlike the Empire, they had opponents of larger size then they were themselves.

 

Hitler's 3rd Reich only made about 12. (Ya beat me Oissan!)

I get what your saying...this is something everyone had to comes to terms with at some point.

What it really boils done to is the desire of GL to intermingle the creation of Darth Vader with the creation of the Empire. It was a creative decision which belies the "establishment" nature of the Empire in the OT. The attempt is made to make us think that the "establishment" of the Empire is rooted in the Republic itself, and especially in the Republic that came to be in the Clone Wars.

So when you think about the Empire, think about the Republic in it's final years too...the Empire really does is extend the powers of the Chancellor and balloon the military budget...the prejudices, the bureaucracy, even the oppression to an extent...were there before "Empire" was named such.

 

The last Emperor of the Galactic Empire died in 11 ABY, meaning the Empire lasted for approximately 31 years, although the destruction of Byss is, in my opinion, a more appropriate ending point, making it a solid 30 years.

The Battle of Endor is by no means the end of the Galactic Empire.

 

Well, technically hasn't the Empire lasted 156 years?

 

If you're just counting the original Galactic Empire under Palpatine, then no. If you generalize and include the Remnant and Fel's Empire in it, then yes. Depends on how technical you want to be.

 

The Galactic Empire and Fel's Second Empire are two completely different entities; same with the Remnant.

 

By what standard are you judging?

i would think if you are going to break the connections between the Remnant and the Empire, you should be disconnection the "Dark Empire" from the Empire proper as well.

In some ways, the Remnant might be more true to the Empire of old then the "Dark Empire" was.

 

Ah yes, why don't we have this conversation again?

Legally, they are two separate entities. So if you're technical about it, that's correct.

In many other ways, they're the same thing.

Still, I would argue in the in response to the topic's original question, the first Empire as a true power and threat really came to an end with the destruction of Byss and the final death of Palpatine. So 30 years.

 

Maybe to the public, but the ideals the public embraced were lies designed to promote Palpatine's evil.

To say that is like saying Palpatine didn't start the clone wars in order to engineer his own rise to power just because the official story went differently.

The truth of the matter is that while he lived, Palpatine was the official ruler of the Empire, and the Empire was nothing more than an instrument to execute his will. Despite the "official story" given to the public, it was nothing more or less, and could be nothing else while the Emperor lived.

It was a tool of selfishness, and the Imperial constitution provided no legitimate means to continue the Empire after the Emperor's death. Not only was the Empire his instrument, but in a way Palpatine was the Empire. The state ceased to exist legally upon his death.

Also, Pellaeon's Empire does not reflect the Galactic Empire of old. Doctrines teaching that aliens were inferior to humans,and incapable of defending themselves were officially incorporated into the policies of that government by Sate Pestage. They were taught in the military Academies as evidenced when Fel is disillusioned by Imperial hypocrisy upon seeing an alien admiral. The Empire centered around Human High Culture. A type of social Darwinism was the heart of the Empire and provided a rallying point for its people gather around.

This is not the case with the Empire under Pellaeon. It still has a doctrine of "conformity is order", but the means it uses to achieve that vision makes it substantially different. Also, its leaders do not have the secret theological ideologies that they were trying to pursue.

Now, it's unclear whether Fel's Empire is actually a seperate entity from Pellaeon's. It is possible that the constitution of Pellaeon's Empire allows for an Imperial monarch, or was amended to allow for one. I think the reason its considered seperate from Pellaeon's is because it is referred to as the New Empire in Legacy, though it's unclear as to what this refers to. Is it New, or is it simply "new"? Is new a part of its official name or does it refer to historical changes that occured to it? Was Pellaeon's Galactic Empire ( we know that according to Leia in Destiny's Way, it was referred to as such by Pellaeon and his Imperials) renamed New Galactic Empire or New Empire? Or is the so called New Empire a completely different state from Pellaeon's Galactic Empire? There's not enough information to decide that yet.

There is enough however to conclude that Palpatine's first Galactic Empire died with him.

 

Put me in the camp that feels the original Empire is still going. As rulers of the entire galaxy the Empire/Palpatine certainly only lasted the 23 or so years, but their are too many similarities involved with the Remnant for me to believe they are a completely new entity. The remaining elements of the Empire modified itself to survive, moved their capital to Bastion, gave the Moff's increased powers etc. There is still a significant connection between old and new, though I admit Palpatine created no legal process for his Empire to carry on without him.

 

As you say, the primary element that composes Pellaeon's Empire was birthed by Palpatine's and is really was the Empire's appeal to many in the first place.

The anti-alien stance isn't as prevalent as it once was, but it's still there. Particularly with the Moffs, it seems. I always thought that the Empire realized the practicality of allowing aliens to be equals if they were to survive and relaxed the anti-alien stance.

Legacy does state, however, that the Imperial Remnant "once again proclaimed itself the Empire". More evidence that they are the same entity than not, though like the Remnant was to the first Empire, the new Empire could just be the succeeding state and not legitimately the same thing.

 

Legally and politically?

One word: Palpatine

The Remnant is just a collection of former warlord states, run by mid-rank ex-Imperials. That they preach the New Order ideology is immaterial.

 

by that standard there is no end to the republic, because the same officers are still running in the current stretch of the EU. The call themselves imperial remnant and run and outfitted teh same exact way. There is just no emperor. The galactic Empire. Which controlled the Republic and most of the know galaxy was destroyed after palpatine died.

The imperial remnat lives on after that but the galactic empire died.

 

Stalin seemed to find plenty to do in two decades. And his purge was shorter.

Sulla managed to make the most out of his brief dictatorship too.

If anything you could argue the shorter lifespan shows the power of the Empire in that they could, for example, make people forget the Jedi in one generation.

 

Maybe I was giving GL a bit too much credit, but I always took the discrepancy between the "establishment" concept from the OT versus the Prequels display of an rather recent Empire to be something along the lines of 1984. I.E. He who controls the Media, controls the past, and he who controls the past controls the present, and by corollary the future.

 

mrarnold40: "by that standard there is no end to the republic, because the same officers are still running in the current stretch of the EU."

You apparently never watched Episode III, wherein the Galactic Senate approve of the end of the Republic and the formation of the Galactic Empire.

"The call themselves imperial remnant and run and outfitted teh same exact way."

You apparently have no idea how either the Galactic Empire, or Remnant, or both, were run. Where is the Remnant's Senate? Where is the Remnant's Ruling Council? Where is the Empire's Moff Council? Where is the Remnant's Emperor?

"There is just no emperor. The galactic Empire. Which controlled the Republic and most of the know galaxy was destroyed after palpatine died.

The imperial remnat lives on after that but the galactic empire died."

That's what I said.

 

and yet that ideology is the political mythos on which the Empire was founded.

Legally? Legally, the hierarchy of command took precedence in in the wake of the Emperor's death...meaning that the eventual decay of the Imperial aristocracy would lead to Pellaeon and the remaining Moffs being the vested powers of Imperial rule.

Denying that, you must fragment the Empire between Endor and the revelation of the Clone at Byss...it would suggest that the Empire was illegitimate until Dark Empire occurred, I don't believe Palpatine, even with his Byss plan, ever intended such...only that control be returned to his clone...and since it was not a well known plan in the occurrence of his death, the statutes guiding those in command were valid, and continued to be so.

In terms of legal suspicion...any council's ability to select or even approve a new Emperor is legally suspect...but the Moffs and Military command structure instituted in the early days of the New Order have lasted into the Remnant era of today...politically and legally.

I'd say if you want to draw the distinctive, it's in the "culture" of the empire that things change. In the acceptance of women and aliens...of outsourced forces...and the capability to compromise in earnest...these are things that separate the Remnant from the Empire of old.

 

Certainly plausible...and not that different from what I was saying:

The Empire embraces the Republic as it's valued and true past...it presents it's history as in line with the Empire's goals...and many of the policies the Empire encourages it claims have precedent in the Republic.

this in not uncommon...the The Romans celebrated their "enlightened freedom" even while crowning their first emperors.

The Empire attempts to make the transition to autocratic rule appear to be the natural evolution of the government to achieve the improvement of the galaxy...Palpatine essentially says as much...speaking of "safe and secure society" even though every Senator knows the war with the Separatists is nearly won...this is a grander statement then the "emergency powers" which were shallow and directly focused.

The Empire goes just short of saying "we've been in power all along" by saying...we are the Republic, perfected...and the Republic was here all along...

All the legitimacy of the Republic is bestowed upon the Empire...a rock solid foundation of 25,000 years of history.

Which...is why I CANNOT stand the name "Alliance to Restore the Republic"...it is errant in the face of the "legitimized" Empire. It is a rebellion against the galactic establishment...the establishment that "is" by definition still that republic...only cosmetically modified.

 

Nonetheless . . . the Republic was gone, with an Empire there in its stead. So it's not a misnomer for them to claim to want it restored.

 

Yeah, I'm sure the Rebellion itself knows that it's not technically true, their name, but I think it's more of an idealistic thing.

 

I dunno. I'd want to see the text of the Republic's equivalent of the Constitution before saying so; while the Senate certainly voted in favor of the Imperial takeover, that doesn't mean that said Constitution-esque document makes it legal.

 

Actually, I'm not so sure it WASN'T technically true.

Prior to Endor, the Alliance seemed to think that, by killing the Emperor, the Imperial apparatus would simply wither as worlds rallied to their cause, they'd be able to take the reins of the existing government, re-establish a Republican form of government, and move forward that way. It was only after Endor, with the Empire regrouping and continuing to fight, that they realized that they'd have to form a counter-government capable of defeating the Empire from without rather than restoring the Republic from within.

Their original thoughts on the matter were certainly naively idealistic, but it wouldn't be the first time the Alliance was naive in their idealism.

 

Jedimarine: "and yet that ideology is the political mythos on which the Empire was founded."

The ideology of the New Order is not reserved solely for the Galactic Empire, nor does it constitute any constitutional or political basis for comparing the Empire to the Remnant.

"Legally? Legally, the hierarchy of command took precedence in in the wake of the Emperor's death...meaning that the eventual decay of the Imperial aristocracy would lead to Pellaeon and the remaining Moffs being the vested powers of Imperial rule."

That's not how governments work. Regional governors do not get command of the state simply because all their superiors are dead. The Moff Council has no constitutional basis to govern the state or to supercede governing institutions.

"Denying that, you must fragment the Empire between Endor and the revelation of the Clone at Byss...it would suggest that the Empire was illegitimate until Dark Empire occurred, I don't believe Palpatine, even with his Byss plan, ever intended such...only that control be returned to his clone...and since it was not a well known plan in the occurrence of his death, the statutes guiding those in command were valid, and continued to be so."

The only thing illegitimate about the Galactic Empire after the Battle of Endor are the claimants to the vacant throne. Palpatine simply did not deign to reveal himself, and allowed the Ruling Council to continue to administrate the Empire as it did before Endor. Isard was Regent in Palpatine's absence and Thrawn commander of the military. All these powers are within the legal and constitutional bounds of the Empire.

Having a council of Moffs and a Supreme Commander as heads of state and government, on the contrary, are not.

"In terms of legal suspicion...any council's ability to select or even approve a new Emperor is legally suspect...but the Moffs and Military command structure instituted in the early days of the New Order have lasted into the Remnant era of today...politically and legally."

Really? So it was a council of Moffs that ran the Empire, and not the Ruling Council? It was a Council of Moffs, and not the Senate? It was a uniformed career officer, and not a civilian? The governments of the Empire and Remnant bear absolutely no resemblance to each other.

"In the acceptance of women and aliens"

There existed no legal or institutionalized discrimination of aliens or women in the Galactic Empire. Daala's "reforms" are the workings of a delusional psychopath completely out of touch with reality.