"The end of the war is near..." and "You have done well, Viceroy."

I was watching Revenge of the Sith a few days ago, and some stuff didn't make sense to me.

Firstly,
When Darth Sidious converses with General Grievous on Utapau, he's like, "The end of the war is near," and when Grevious protests that uh, the war isn't going so well right now, "Sidious is just like, oh I'll have a new apprentice soon, who'll be a lot more powerful."

I don't get it, how could a new apprentice turn the tide in a snap like that, and lead to victory? Unless he's so powerful that he can destroy world with a glare of his eyes, I don't see how Grievous could be fooled into thinking he wasn't going to end up betrayed. Perhaps there is something I'm missing? Was there some plan for CIS victory that I don't know of... because all we know of is that at this point of the Clone Wars, the CIS is mostly in retreat, and doesn't seem close to victory... at least that is my understanding.

Secondly,
After Viceroy Gunray and the Separatist Council arrive at Mustafar, they have a conference with Darth Sidious. Gunray says, "The plan has gone as you promised, my Lord." Sidious replies, "You have done well, Viceroy."

What plan is Gunray talking about? What has he done well? Was the plan just to retreat to Mustafar? Is that what went as promised? Is that how he did well? That makes ZERO sense... that would be like saying to someone, Congratulations for driving from work back to your house, you have done well, good plan. Have I missed something? Was the plan that all the Jedi would be destroyed? I just don't see what's been done well... the droid armies appear to be just about fully defeated, and Grievous is now dead, too. No one disputes that the Separatist leaders are imbeciles... is this why they thought every was hunky-dory and everything would be great once the new apprentice came?

Thanks in advance everyone...

 

Grievous was not betrayed; Obi-Wan killed him, not Sidious/apprentice. Also, Grievous was under the Sith's thumb; he followed whatever commands he was given.

Second, the script probably took one of Nute's best lines from TPM and put it in there. For what reason, I have no idea, but it would get the idea across that this is Nute Gunray, (still) Viceroy of the Trade Federation. Doing something like that is an easy way to get people to recognize the character.

 

What Sidious says to General Grievous is most likely him easing the General's tensions about loosing Count Dooku. Grievous was worried about what turn the war would take after Dooku's death, and Sidios reassures his thinking. He never lies to Grievous, he says Dooku's loss was necesary and that he would soon have a new, stronger apprentice. Not that, he's manipulating the Jedi Council into sending Kenobi and that his new apprentice will be the one to murder the Separatist Council.

And, I asked that question a long time ago and the answer I got was that the Viceroy was referring to the Clone Wars in general. Possibly even how the war was supposed to play out in its final days. Because, before Vader murders Gunray, he screams that the war is over. Obviously, Sidious has told him something because we all know Vader didn't spill it.

 

Well, technically the end of the war did come because of Darth Vader. He took out the Jedi, the clones were signed to Republic/Empire and The Seperatist leaders were destroyed.

Sidious never said which side would win, only that the end was comming.

I think the whole plan speak was about them retreating to Mustafar and "keeping a low profile". Sidious's plan, to get them all together on a remote planet so Vader could unleash the darkside on them.

 

There's no questioning it. When your questions about basic plot and dialog and motivation for characters run into the hundreds, basically you have to just give up and realize that Lucas flubbed it all up.

 

Did Palp tell Vader where EXACTLY in Mustafar is the Separatist?

 

If memory serves me correctly, the Revenge of the Sith novel says Vader was given the security codes for the complex. So naturally, he probably was given the location of the Separatist base as well.

 

Ummm... how did the Jedi learn about the Droid General's whereabouts?
Palpatine served GG to the Jedi on a silver platter.

If that isn't betrayal, then I don't know what is.

 

It is betrayal. Grievous like the entire CIS were pawns set up into the grand scheme. Dooku was the lead of the CIS and Palpatine speaks of having a better apprentice. Should that ease anyhting? It didn't with Gunray as you see him protest at the meeting on Utapau. However from this point as far as they know Palpatine/Sidious has it covered and even if they have doubts they'll have to see for themselves about this new apprentice. Vader of course takes them out.

As for the plan. I think that either he was referring to the CW in general or Gunray and possibly some others were told that eventually the war would lose on their end but they would profit more.

 

1. Sidious was implying that the END for Grievous was near. Of course, Grievous wouldn't know that.

 

I agree. Palpatine only cares about his lust for power and has no loyalty--the nature of the Sith. Grievous was an expendable part to his ultimate goal. The chessboard was lined up for the takeover (the Jedi were thinned, time for 66) and Grievous was no longer needed. The only part left for Grievous to play was to be a tool to separate Obi-wan and Anakin, so that Palpatine could isolate and turn Anakin completely w/o interference from Obi-wan.

As to Gunray, I didn't see more into other than the retreat was successful and the Separatists were now safer than they were before. Not to mention that Gunray feared Sidious and would not back talk him (see TPM interaction).

 

Actually, it should have worked to Sidious's advantage to keep Grievous alive as long as possible. As long as Grievous is running amok, there's no reason for the Senate to revoke his emergency powers and he can delay that showdown with Mace Windu for a good while.

 

except there comes a point, when you have all the chess pieces in place, where you have to call checkmate, rather than keep delaying. Palpatine knew that with the execution of Count Dooku, that Anakin Skywalker was finally ready for the Dark side pitch. Sidious had been working to get to this moment for ten years. He used the capture of Grievous as the final straw to push Anakin away from the Jedi. That whole line where he tells Anakin he would question the judgment of the Jedi Council if they didn't select Anakin to do it was quite deliberate, because he knew damn well they weren't going to send Anakin. SithStarSlayer is absolutely correct about the source of General Grievous' location...Sidious. General Grievous was nothing but a tool, a pawn in the game. Sidious knew that you give up pawns occasionally to accomplish a larger goal, in this case, the goal was the final corruption of Anakin Skywalker to the Dark side. Never forget, the entire Clone Wars was a sham, a ruse designed to give Palpatine power. General Grievous was a figurehead. His only power was that Sidious gave him to play his part.

Alpha-Red, I would argue that Sidious saw no further reason to delay the inevitable showdown with the Jedi. He had, for all intents and purposes, already won, so why delay the satisfaction of letting the Jedi know how completely they had been beaten?

 

Right, and I believe that Sidious wanted an ultimate showdown with the Jedi.
I bet he almost drooled on himself when he felt them approaching his office.

 

exactly. Sidious has been patient his entire life...he must have been gleeful at the prospect of finally having a showdown with the Jedi, like a couple who decide to wait until their wedding night and are anxious to get it on...you simply can't realistically ask a guy to wait longer...Palpatine showed ridiculous amount of patience getting the pieces in place...to ask him to wait even more would be too much.

 

Palpatine didn't look gleeful in the least bit, the Jedi at that point actually still held the upper hand. You saw how much rage he put into that lightsaber duel, he practically lost control of himself. It's obvious he's been holding it back for a long time, and even after waiting for so long he still this close from being shish-kabob'ed by the purple lightsaber. Those weren't good odds for Palpatine at all, and I don't think he's from Corellia.

 

What baffles me is why Darth Sidious even chose to reveal himself to the CIS leaders. This makes no sense to me and definitely hurts the story. Think about it... unlike Darth Maul, Dooku is a charasmatic leader; who is powerful, respected, and competent. Why doesn't Sidious just introduce him to the seperatists as an ex-Jedi Master, instead of a Sith? Set him up as the brains of the whole CIS operation and make it appear as though Dooku is calling all the shots. Sidious stays behind scenes and manipulates to his heart's content! What does Sidious have to gain by revealing himself as Dooku's master? It would only add suspicion to the Sith's plan. Considering that Nute Gunray and the Federation was already betrayed by the Sith once, why would any of the CIS leaders trust the Sith again? RIGHT? But because the CIS leaders do know that Sidious is behind everything, yet they do nothing when things start smelling kind of fishy. And as a result, the last hour of AOTC, and most of ROTS, makes very little sense! George tried to be too clever for his own good! Too much scheming for Sidious. He should've kept the story as simple and as logical as possible, keep Sidious in the shadows!

 

Simple. When he started his plans with the CIS, prior to TPM, Dooku hadn't turned to the Dark side yet, so he couldn't have used him as the entire face of the operation. When exactly did the CIS get betrayed by Sidious, prior to Mustafar? Remember, they do not know that Sidious = Palpatine. Any actions taken by Palpatine against the CIS would not have registered with them as a betrayal from Sidious. In his guise as Darth Sidious, how did he betray the CIS, prior to ROTS? Palpatine, Supreme Chancellor of the Republic certainly acted against them, but, what about Sidious? From the CIS perspective, taking into consideration that they didn't know Darth Sidious and Palpatine were the same, I mean.

 

Actually, it doesn't matter whether or not Palpatine's original plans for the CIS included Dooku or not. What does matter, though, is that when Palps was ready to iniate those plans, he did have Dooku on his side. I suspect that Palp's original plans called for the Trade Federation to be the face of the operation, but they proved to be an inept bunch. Which contrasts nicely former Jedi Master, Count Dooku. He is wise, powerful, and well-respected(even among the Jedi still). And he wants to end corruption in a tired government. Essentially, a perfect face for the new government in town! Why sully that image by revealing that he works for a Sith?

Dooku explains to Obi-Wan how Nute and Co. felt that they had been betrayed by Sidious in the events of the Naboo invasion. And while many will argue that Dooku is lying to Obi, I respond by saying that everything else he tells Obi-Wan in the conversation is true. This is also further supported by Nute's reluctance to help Dooku unless he assassinates Padme. An obvious sign that the Sith and the Trade Federation did have a falling out.

 

When Sidious initiated the plans, Darth Maul was still his apprentice. His grand scheme's major first move was the blockade of Naboo. Dooku had nothing to do with it, as he was still a Jedi Master, not a Sith apprentice.

Revisionist history. That was simply the story they came up with after Dooku joins him. Sidious' plans were already underway when Dooku joins, so they concocted a believable cover story to explain why Dooku would side with the Separatists against the Republic.

Wow, are you misrepresenting what happens...first, Dooku's conversation with the members of the CIS that we see in AOTC never mentions Sidious, Palpatine, or anyone else by name. He never mentions being betrayed. Nor does Obi-Wan Kenobi mention it in his holographic plea for help just before being captured. Nute's reluctance to help Dooku until Padme is dead is because he has a grudge against Padme for foiling the Naboo takeover, not because it is a test of Dooku's resolve or anything. If we accept his entire conversation with Kenobi, after Obi-Wan is captured as the truth, how exactly did Sidious betray the Trade Federation ten years prior? If he betrayed them, what was the betrayal?

Further, if Sidious was no longer associated with the CIS, why does he, as Darth Sidious, remain in contact with them, as evidenced by the Clone Wars animated series, showing Sidious remaining in contact with Dooku, Grievous, and various CIS leaders, up until ROTS, telling them to await the arrival of his new apprentice? Are you suggesting that they had a falling out, but then mended fences? Dooku was lying to Kenobi. It is clear. Sidious never had a real falling out with the CIS prior to his betrayal on Mustafar, as they still trusted him. They were foolish to trust a Sith Lord, to be sure...but, they did. Sidious was betraying them, but they didn't know about it. That is what I am getting at. From their perspective, there was no betrayal, because they weren't clued in on the fact that one man was running both sides of the show.

Sorry, but you still haven't shown how Darth Sidious betrayed the CIS prior to Mustafar.

 

What I mean by "iniated plans," are the plans for the CIS and the Civil War. This portion of Sidious's grand scheme was not iniated until Dooku was on board. I don't believe that a failed Naboo Invasion was part of the Grand Scheme, so Sidious obviously went back to the drawing board in between the events of TPM and AOTC. What transpires after is not simply a cover story, it is the revised plan.

Dooku does mention his master(whom we presume the CIS leaders know is Sidious) when he leaves with the Death Star Plans. Dooku mentions the betrayal to Obi-Wan. So what if Obi-wan doesn't mention it in his transmission? Obi-Wan doesn't mention Darth Sidious in his transmission either, what's your point?

Why would Nute's grudge against Padme prevent him from working with the Sith? That doesn't make any sense. If Nute had a grudge against Padme, it would only prevent him from working with the Naboo. When Dooku agrees to kill Padme, it does two things:

1. Satisfy the grudge Nute has against Padme.
2. Restore the Trade Federation's trust in the Sith.

So, actually, killing Padme is a test of Dooku's resolve. That is why Nute refuses to sign Dooku's treaty at first. If The Trade Federation and the Sith were on good terms, then there would be no reluctance on Nute's part to work with the Sith again and he would gladly sign Dooku's treaty without hesitation. Nute's reluctance to sign the treaty suggests that he has lost trust in the Sith. I don't know the conditions of the betrayal. Perhaps, Sidious did not aid the Trade Federation after they were arrested after the failed invasion. Or maybe the TF felt that Sidious had set them up to fail. This is not discussed further as far as I'm aware, but something has happened to sever the tie that the Sith and the Trade Federation once had. And Dooku tries to restore this relationship by offering to kill Padme.