The Gap in between TPM and AOTC.....We Missed out on Anakins Character Development

So we begin our journey of Anakins story in the TPM, where we see this little kid full of life, selfless, and good-spirited.

We end the movie with a kind of prophetic doom on his training.

Now we enter AOTC. We're introduced to a whole new character: an arrogant, wants it his way teenager, an obvious rebel, full of emotion, tormented, deprived, in need of attention kind of person.

Now, I had a digussion about this with my uncle, I did a quick scam through through the index, nothing there as far as i could tell, and thought i'd just post a new discussion about how:

I felt we obviously missed somehthing VITAL to the story of Anakins story. Do we know how he got this sour attitude? Ten years of Anakins training has 0 attention drawn to it, ya know! I mean those are the most crucial in a Jedi's training, where he wil be tempted by the dark-side of the force.

Why did we miss out?! I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining. I just wonder why it was done
this way. And by Doing it this way do we really grow with Anakin and follow
his story strait?

Was it done this way to possibly gap the ten years with like an emotional EPIC T.V. SERIES!! just kidding, but like really.


I personally think Anakin/Vader's story would've been so much more deep had we found out what exactly went wrong with his training and how he went from selfless, to arrogant and rebel bound, (then to of course D.V.).


Well he doesn't feel like the little boy we we're introduced too. And i really missed out on what he became in AOTC.

Am i just seeing something thats not there, or do others think the same?

If I didn't catch something tell mesa please.

THOUGHTS?!
OBJECTIONS?!

begin

 

The point seems to be that normal Jedi training cannot apply to someone who spent the first 10 years of their life as a normal human being.

Nothing out of the ordinary happened--that's the problem.

 

Oh so kind of like a delayed reaction? that would certainly make sense.

I just get the feeling something did happen that would make a great story. heh i might be hoping to much on that one.

 

Everything of importance that happened in that ten year gap between TPM and AOTC is explored in AOTC itself. We see and hear Anakin alluding to his previous exploits with Obi Wan in their first scene, for example. But that's just small scale. The larger scale stuff is covered as the film unfolds. It's the same with the OT: We don't see what happens between ANH and TESB and TESB and ROTJ. "So what?", you say. "That much is obvious". And it's clear that Luke doesn't change as much. But he does change: a little bit between the end of ANH and the start of TESB and quite a lot between the end of TESB and the start of ROTJ. That's the beauty of Star Wars. Unlike some other popular film trilogies I could name, the films don't roll one into the other. You're not spoon-fed every last detail. Your imagination has to fill in the blanks.

 

You may be on to something there.





That's the beauty of Star Wars. Unlike some other popular film trilogies I could name, the films don't roll one into the other. You're not spoon-fed every last detail. Your imagination has to fill in the blanks.

Yep.

 

I think the long gap is intentional so that it doesn't give away that Sidious had been twisting his mind and his perception of what Jedi training was supposed to be teaching him. We see a bit of it onscreen but not enough to formulate any concrete patterns, until it's too late. While the Jedi would continually put Anakin in his place; to humble him and suppress the ego, Palpatine was constantly building up his ego and empowering him to be self reliant. So when Anakin turns and we discover the Sith Master was his mentor all those long 13 years, we sort of see the connection, but it's not given away til it happens.

Later Anakin realises fully what happened to him as a boy, when Sidious is taunting Luke with words of revelation intended for Anakin's son. They go as follows: "Young fool ...... Only now ...... at the end ...... do you finally understand." Anakin at this moment reflects these words against his own life (having just been humbled and mercifully sparred by his own son) realises that his reasons for turning weren't nessesarliy his own. His time under the Sith Lord growing up affected his 'point of view'. This 'point of view' in turn affected what he could see in front of him. It was the 'point of view' the Emperor intended for him to have. This reinforces the whole purpose of keeping the twins hidden from the Sith; so that their point of view would not be corrupted before they faced the tribulation against their father.

EDITED PORTION: I'd like to add that this is the significance to the change in jedi robe colors from ROTS to his ghost form in ROTJ. These are the colors he would have worn had he not been corrupted all those years before his turn.

 

Hmm...a good topic this is!

Yes, Palpatine most DEFINITELY had something to do with it...ever since my mom and I saw Palpatine in ep.1, we knew who was who......and our suspicions only deepened as he said, and I quote, "We shall watch your training with interest!"

Dead give away.

But, Obi-Wan wasn't the best Master in the galaxy. I mean, you must remember, that Obi-Wan went straight from being a Padawan to a Jedi Master. No Knightship anywhere.

He was far too young to train Anakin Skywalker.

If you would like a better view of this, read the Jedi Quest series books.....they give an insight from Anakin's morph from innocence to evil.

They're quite good....the whle intention of those was to show how Palpatine minipulated Anakin, and how Obi-Wan training failed him.

 

Obi-wan was a Knight. He wasn't a Master until after Anakin became a Knight. Master is what you call an instructor. Master-Jedi is a formal title used by outsiders. Obi-wan wasn't a bad Master as he did make Anakin into a Knight. He was just underminded by Palpatine's teachings.

But that's a whole different topic. We see Anakin's character development in AOTC. Those ten years aren't as important as the end result in AOTC. Which then takes us to the next level.

 

You're right...that is another topic...so I made one for it!

Wait. how could Obi-Wan train Anakin if he wasn't a Master? I mean, you said that a Master is an instuctor...Obi-Wan more or less instuced Anakin, right?

And if Obi-Wan WAS just a Jedi Knight, and was training Anakin, that is more proof that Obi-Wan wasn't ready?

I'm not meaning to get in a bicker, but I like to share my opinions!

 

You have to read the books. they deal with Anakin's training. I think one of them is called Rogue Planet. And they have lots of young audience books dealing with the Gap you mentioned. and yes, they are all canon. indeed.

 

Jedi Knights can train Padawans. It's not limited to Jedi Masters. They are called Master by other Jedi, when they are still a Knight. The Younglings and Jocasta Nu call Obi-wan, "Master Kenobi" as a sign of respect for his status as a Knight and instructor. Anakin was called "Master Skywalker" by that Youngling, even though Anakin was a Knight. Remember that Anakin was not granted the rank of Master. Obi-wan became a full fledged Master when Anakin was made a Knight, following the Battle of Praesitlyn.

 

I understand what Lucas was trying to do with the overt formality of the Republic, but it just didn't work for me, and I completely understand why people were confused as to whether Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anakin were Jedi Knights or Jedi Masters.


As far as the gap between TPM and AOTC goes, if I haven't started a topic on it, I certainly have argued that, particularly since ROTS has come out.

People argue the gaps between ANH, ESB and ROTJ, yet we're talking about a couple of years - like, the gap between AOTC and ROTS and the development of Obi-Wan and Anakin is easily comprehensible.

But we're talking about going from a 10-year-old (or whatever) boy to a 20-year-old.

TPM could have used way more interaction with Anakin and Obi-Wan, Palpatine, and even Padme. Those are the 3 people who Anakin is closest to (other than his mother), and Lucas essentially wastes 1 movie not developing those relationships.

 

QFT...

Excellent post.

 

Obi and Ani don't exchange words until the very end of TPM--the same for Palpatine and Ani.

TONS of other stuff is set up in TPM whether you realize it or not, and introducing some of the major players as unrelated supporting characters is part of the film's genius.

It's the PHANTOM MENACE. What's REALLY going on is not clear. That's the point.

Wow, those Luke/Vader, Luke/Yoda, and Luke/Leia relationships were really set up in ANH...

I hadn't thought about it that way before, but TPM establishes those analogous relationships better than ANH. If a film was WASTED on such things, it would be ANH, not TPM.

Thanks for helping me notice that.

 

The point is, Qui-Gon could have been replaced by Obi-Wan, and they could have made Anakin at least a little older.

I understand that Lucas has done what he has wanted, not what the fans wanted or expected, but if the whole point of the PT is to show the downfall of the Chosen One, he essentially wastes TPM.

Anakin is greatly defined by his relationships with Palpatine, Padme and Obi-Wan.

Part of what I loved about ROTS is seeing Palpatine manipulate Anakin; we get a hint of that in AOTC, and nothing in TPM.

We're told in the OT that Obi-Wan was a hothead who thought he was always right (sounds like Qui-Gon) and his failure helped turn Anakin into Darth Vader - yet in TPM, they meet 1/2 of the way through the movie and don't even talk until the very end of the film.

 

And it should be noted that there were a couple of scenes cut from ROTS that would have shown more of what you are talking about. Dadgummit, I can't find my copy of the script!! Will post the scenes later...

 

The role of Anakin in TPM is that of a messianic figure discovered. The reason he was so young was to 1) establish that even at that age a person is too old for Jedi initiation and 2) to show at what age Anakin began being manipulated by the Dark Lord of the Sith. A nine year old boy with near limitless force potential is viewed with caution by the Jedi and greed by the Sith. But in TPM he is not corrupted yet. Sure he wasa bit of a brat; just like Luke was in ANH, but he cared nothing for power or self. We see Anakin as Luke probably was at the same age. When AOTC begins we see the factual result of his circumstances for the last 10 years. That's the point. Later we see Luke and it shows us what Anakin might have been like at the same age had he not been twisted and confused by an older pseudo father figure. This coupled with Obi Wan not being a Jedi Master when he began training Anakin set up the foundation for Anakin's fall.

EDITED PORTION: For Kiki_Firestar: Now even though we all knew Palpatine was the bad guy; especially after his remark "We shall watch your career with great interest." But at this point in the series we're not supposed to know that yet. We're really not supposed to make the connection until ROTS. Even though they're prequels, the numerical order is how future audiences are supposed to view them. In that respect I don't see it as a dead give away but more foreshadowing

 

I still think I'm going to get my kids to watch them IV-VI, I-III, but that's another story.

Why not have Anakin be around the same age as Luke when he was thrown to the wolves?

I think so much of TPM could have been condensed.

One reason why the Clone Wars shorts were so popular, IMHO, is because it's more along the lines of what people wanted to see - the wars in Star Wars - General Kenobi - Anakin Skywalker, galactic hero - Anakin being Knighted - et cetera.

I'm actually more of an apologist for the PT overall, but when people start topics about the gap between TPM and AOTC, I can't help myself.

 

Ya I agree, I love the PT and what it is as a story there's just certain topics of it that spark much discussion and many questions.

I mean one explanation I can give myself to Anakin being so young when we started his journey (mind you this kind of dawned on me while watching TPM commentary last night) is by doing this you put Obi Wan around the same age as Luke in ANH/ESB and Anakin in AOTC/ROTS.

Their stories can be looked at and compared, for example: Obi Wan and Qui Gon's relationship is a very good one; where the master leads and makes decisions, while the apprentice is learning and obeying.

We get to compare this to the relationship Obi Wan has with Anakin where theres much rivalry involved and we get to see there's alot of things out of place and not the way Master/Padawan relationships are supposed to be. Obi Wan, we can tell, has a hard time handling and disciplining Anakin.

We see Yoda training Luke in ESB much the way Anakin needed to be trained throughout his Apprenticeship with Obi Wan.

~~these comparisons and reflections bring detail to the quotes Obi Wan says about not being able to train Anakin very well the way he thought he could, I've failed you, etc.




But if what I said was true still why introduce a Pure Anakin in TPM which has nothing to do with the one we see in AOTC. (character wise)



A question I have was what took place in those long years, Jedi order wise, Anakins training, Seperatist Movement, etc. So much juicy story base and theres so little information about it . The more i think about it the more I really think about how much we don't know during this gap. I am off my own topic a bit here but it's no biggy, heh.

 

Nothing took place of importance. Anything you want to see will have to come from "Rogue Planet", the Jedi Apprentice special editions, the Jedi Quest series, "Outbound Flight" and "Approaching Storm".

 

I looked at those books earlier today and was thinking of getting them since i dawned and interest on this =/.

I really didn't want that last part of my post to be that important I was just rambling towards the end there.

 

It's about the only way to see what could've gone down. But really, it was never important enough to show. Like a lot of things in Star Wars. Such as when Luke learned to levitate objects. How the Alliance left Yavin and made it to Hoth. How Vader managed to get home. What did Han do to tick off Lando. Where did Luke get the materials to build his new Lightsaber. How did Lando get into Jabba's without being recognized. The eu found a place for this.

 

Ya I see what your saying, 10 years is just such a big scale it's like a whole new story when we arrive to AOTC.

Those things you mentioned are so fun to fill with your imagination, and to read in the EU. But Anakin's character progression was so vital in this story and it seems to get pushed aside to be handled by the EU . Now we enter AOTC and we meet a whole new guy .

But I'm noticing a reflection here of Obi Wans apprenticeship in TPM set up to give us an excellent picture of what a Jedi Master and Padawan relationship is meant to be like so when we see this mimic'ed beside Anakin's we can see the real fault in it. Then we get to Luke and we get to compare theirs to his.

 

Lucas does not "waste" a whole movie.

Much agreed.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. "They". That's fallacious for a start: it's George Lucas. One person. I think he told exactly the story that he wanted to tell. Anakin being the age he is, and having a relationship with the "father", Qui Gon, that is cut short, only to be replaced by Obi Wan, the younger, grouchier "brother", at the last minute, is an inherent part of Anakin's downfall as intimated and initiated by TPM.

There is SO MUCH of Anakin's downfall shown in TPM!

Big tragedies grow from small things.

Darth Vader is a tiny speck in TPM that has grown -- subtly, imperceptibly -- by film's end.

Anakin's decline goes into overdrive after that. Perhaps that is the real problem? TPM shows a lot, but the truly visceral stuff is still ahead.

He is also greatly defined by what enters him into those relationships.

Exactly right.

Anakin has his innocent abused and corrupted by Palpatine.

He truly knew nothing of greed in TPM. But he was fascinated by power ("No one can kill a Jedi!") and Palpatine used this to his advantage. It makes sense that he only meets Palpatine at film's end. But Palpatine has already had a massive influence on his life. He's the one that caused the blockade from which the entire film's plot flowed. A truly (in)Sidious "Phantom Menace".

Also: Palpatine functions as a literal embodiment of the Dark Side. The exponential growth of scenes between Anakin and Palpatine in the PT underscores the idea that the Dark Side grows at the same exponential rate within Anakin.

Lucas reconfigured the story to give it added philosophical dimensions. Dimensions he likely hadn't thought of as a younger man. Obi Wan's words point to a different story, but given that he was shown to have already deceived Luke by the end of the OT, I can ride with it, as can countless other fans. It's a matter of preference, I suppose. "Your focus determines your reality."

 

a big reason for anakin being a little boy, imo, was so people would look and say 'ooh that little boy becomes darth vader can u believe it'. Its not as shocking if he was say 20.

but to be honest, the use of a new actor and the difference in age gives me a hard time thinking of them as the same guy