PT The history of midi-chlorians and The Force in the Star Wars universe

There has been much debate about the nature of The Force in a historic context. The Phantom Menace introduced the midi-chlorians to the public, and became a controversial concept. In the prequel trilogy it was established that everyone has a different number midi-chlorians in their cells, that determines their "Force potential". Jedi appear to select young children, based on this potential. Anakin Skywalker has the highest number of midi-chlorians seen in a life form, and is presented as the Chosen One, prophisied to bring balance to The Force. Luke and Leia, being Anakin's children, apparently also have a high "Force potential".

However, what were George Lucas original ideas with respect to The Force, and how special were the Skywalkers in a historic perspective, starting from the original 1977 Star Wars?

Being confused myself, I decided to delve into the books written by J.W. Rinzler about the making of the OT.

As it turns out after the success of Star Wars in 1977, George Lucas wrote guide lines for the Expanded Universe.

About The Force:

“The Force really doesn’t have anything to do with the lightsaber. Anybody can have a lightsaber. It’s just a weapon like a pistol, and Leia could use the lightsaber as well as anyone else. But she really hasn’t had any training with a lightsaber because she doesn’t really like them; she prefers pistols. The Force is really a way of feeling; it’s a way of being with life. It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extrasensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years. Luke is on the road to knowing the Force, but it will be another twenty years before he actually begins to cope with it on a real level. He’s still an amateur. As far as Luke knows, Ben is the last of the Jedi Knights. But there could be more. Obviously Darth Vader knows the Force, but as far as we know at this point, Luke is one of the last surviving apprentices of the Force. The Force is always there, however. Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

Edit: the line about midi-chlorians was added during the making of the book to bring it in line with George Lucas's current views, as was admitted by the writer, J.W. Rinzler:

"While we were preparing the text for The Making of Star Wars, Lucas added a note to this passage about midi-chlorians, bringing his original words in line with his later thoughts and the events of the prequel trilogy."

Originally, The Force is available to anyone who wants to study it. Luke Skywalker is only special in the sense, that he is one of the last apprentices of The Force. He does not have any special abilities compared to other humans. The reason that nobody else learns about The Force is, because it is not something you just get. You have to study it. Obviously to study it, you have to know it exists. Luke has the good fortune to know one of the last surviving Jedi, who can teach him.

The added line makes it very clear that George Lucas himself was aware that his original open-ended definition of The Force was at odds with the more closed-ended definition he later used in the prequels.

About Darth Vader and Luke's father Annikin (as he was then known):

“When the Jedi tried to restore order, Darth Vader was still one of the Jedi. What he would do is catch the Jedi off guard and, using his knowledge of the Force, he would kill the Jedi without them realizing what was happening. They trusted him and they didn’t realize he was the murderer who was decimating their ranks. At the height of the Jedi, there were several hundred thousand. At the time of the Rebellion, most of them were killed. The Emperor had some strong forces rally behind him, as well, in terms of the army and the Imperial forces that he’d been building up secretly. The Jedi were so outnumbered that they fled and were tracked down. They tried to regroup, but they were eventually massacred by one of the special elite forces led by Darth Vader. Eventually only a few, including Ben and Luke’s father, were left. Luke’s father is named Annikin.”

Obviously, Darth Vader and Luke's father were two different people. Darth Vader betrayed the Jedi, but unlike the PT, he's a backstabber, who takes out the Jedi one by one. Luke's father is not The Chosen One, but just one of a few Jedi who survive the initial unslaught. He's ultimately murdered by Darth Vader.

In The Empire Strikes Back Darth Vader and Luke's father become one person. However, Darth Vader is still not The Chosen One and not the most powerful Force user in the Galaxy.

About The Force:

“Maybe we should set up some kind of levels of achievement. Ben can say that Luke is now a level 2 and Vader is a 4; ‘I was a 6 and the Emperor is a 6, and he’s on his way to becoming a 10, which will be a force so powerful in the universe that nothing can stop him. You must stop the Emperor before he achieves the level 10.’ Luke has to destroy the Emperor. It does give us a time frame for the future—not only do they have to restore the Republic, but they also have to worry about the Emperor. We’re really beginning to set up that situation."

Both Obi-Wan and the Emperor are more powerful than Vader, and the Emperor is still growing in power, creating a small time frame to achieve victory. This sheds another light on the phrase "That boy is our last hope". This statement was not related to Luke having more "Force potential" than other humans, but he was one of the last apprentices of The Force, and the heroes have only a small time frame, before all hope is lost.

However, earlier scripts of The Empire Strikes Back, also have the following sequence:

Vader to Luke:

"The Force runs strong in the Skywalker line, you must use the dark side. Together we would be the most powerful. Stronger with the Force than even the Emperor."

This can be interpreted in two ways. One is, that the Skywalkers have a greater "Force potential" at birth. However, a more logical interpretation in the historic context is, that statement is simply a reflection of the fact that both Vader and his son have reached a high level of achievement. The Skywalker line therefore just refers to Vader and Luke. However, the Emperor has reached an even higher level of achievement, than either Vader or Luke, which is why Vader feels they should team up.

In Return of the Jedi it is first time, that it is said to Luke in the film that "The Force runs strong in your family". An early script reveals:

Ben to Luke:

"The Emperor knew, as I did, how strongly the Force ran in the Skywalker line. He began to search for Anakin’s offspring. I went to your mother and told her that we must hide you in order to protect you—both of you."

So by the final film in the OT, the Skywalkers definitely have become a special case, being stronger in The Force than other humans. Discussions between George Lucas and Lawrence Kasdan reveal that George maintains, that anybody can learn the ways of The Force, if they take the time to do it, which is consistent with his 1977 guidelines. Why the Skywalkers are special, is not revealed, nor is it said, that this implies that all humans have a different "Force potential". The Skywalker line is strong in the Force, simply implies, that they are somehow more aware of The Force than other humans.

So, to summarise, the Skywalkers originally did not have a greater "Force potential" than any other human. All humans had the same "Force potential", and anybody could learn the ways of The Force, but learning to use it was difficult. Luke was only special in the sense, that he's one of the last apprentices of The Force. The importance of the Skywalker line grew with Darth Vader becoming Luke's father. It's possible George Lucas already was toying with the idea of making the Skywalkers a special case with respect to their Force abilities, but this did not make it into the final film. By the last film in the OT, the Skywalkers definitely had become a special case, being stronger in the Force than other humans, but this was not linked to their biological makeup, or a general concept of different potentials between humans. Could it be that there were other family lines that are strong in The Force compared to the average human? It is possible, but certainly not a fact. This fact was only really established in the prequel trilogy era.

 

DrDre

The line about midis was NOT there in the 70's. Lucas added that line for the Making of Star Wars book and Rinzler admitted that Lucas added that line to what he wrote back then.

So Lucas had NOT thought about midis back then.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Thanks, I've updated the history.

 

The brain functions were there, but not the Midichlorians themselves.

 

I would dispute that but regardless the point is that you are correct that it is a fact that it`s a fact.

That it was also established at the start of the story is also correct. That it was started before it was established I would say is also a fact but obviously some will dispute that.

Of course course it is a fact that in ANH (before it was ANH and not just SW) that Luke`s father was killed by Darth Vader.

This doesn`t change the fact that he now always was Luke`s father.

Lucas is the creator and driver of the story so all facts are his to shape as he wished which he did.

It`s his story not ours.

 

"The force is Strong in my family" line in ROTJ pretty much paved the way to them

Its clear genetics had something to do with it, was it a retcon? Sure. But Lucas changed his mind about A LOT of things from ANH. See how Ben's speech is now 70% bullsh***t

 

Well, it isn't BS. Everything that he told Luke in ANH and ROTJ was accurate to what happened in the PT. Only one thing wasn't and that was about Anakin's Lightsaber.

 

The thing is that "anybody could learn the ways of The Force" concept has some "interesting" implications to it. (And I strongly suspect that Lucas later understood them and that's why he later ditched it all together).

1. The Dark Side and the Light Side are two sides of the same coin. Anyone, who can learn to use the Light Side, can learn to use the Dark Side.
2. Even an established Light Side user can fall to the Dark Side - and strict control over oneself and determination is required to avoid that.
3. After someone devotes oneself to the Dark Side coming back is next to impossible.
4. The Dark Side is more attractive, easier to learn, easier to master.

This means:
An average Joe in a Galaxy far-far away, who decides to learn about the Force without a Light Side mentor, is much more likely to fall to the Dark Side and remain there.

This in turns means:
If anyone could learn to use the Force, the Galaxy would have been crawling with self-established Sith Lords. Especially considering the appeal of having special powers, which give the opportunity to take over other sentients.

/sarcasm mode on/ So apparently in the old good days of Galactic Republic the Jedi had to constantly run all over the Galaxy eliminating the new emerging Siths - so much for the times of peace and prosperity /sarcasm mode off/

 

But...that's kind of the point. It actually explains why Luke is their "last hope"; because as a Jedi you would be very careful as to who you would teach these techniques to, and how. They would need to have a certain mindset prior to teaching them. How else, other than by means of a mentor, would these multitudes of Force users learn about the Force? Who else could they trust?

Hence Obi-Wan's line about how he had thought he could teach Vader as well as Yoda (an idea that the PT undermines by having Dooku, Yoda's protegé, turn to the darkside).

And...to pre-empt the question; it would make little sense for a dark-side user to pass their knowledge on to just anybody - they re more likely to become a threat to them, either because they may become better able to overthrow you or...the Force forbid, they may have a conscience (which is ultimately what did for the Emperor...)

 

1. If a mentor and a certain mindset are a must - then we are basically back to the similar situation as with genetic origin of a being a Force user, only with a different set of limitations. The ability to learn to use the Force is limited by
a) availability of Force "gurus" to the someone who wished to learn about the Force
b) the readiness to follow particular "guru's" teachings
c) having the right mindset to be selected as an apprentice

2. If the Force is truly available to everyone, the knowledge about it, the methods of teaching and training sooner or later will start to proliferate into "general public", especially over the thousands of years of Jedi Order and Sith existence. Moreover, if knowledge of such techniques is somehow limited, people will just try to figure them out on their own - the way the first Jedi and Sith created them. It is only in conspiracy theories about Illuminati, Templars or whatever, you can keep some terrible secret knowledge of new powers or technologies hidden from all for hundreds of years. In reality, such knowledge constantly re-surface - and sooner rather later. Even the most closed intelligence agencies prove unable to hold their secrets - and seems highly implausible that such organization as Jed Order and much less individual Sith will be better at it.

Only when full-scale Force-using is available only to a small fraction of galactic population, these techniques of learning to use the Force could remain secret - simply because there are so few, who can benefit from them.

 

Ah, but it was a smart move as it illustrates that even Yoda was fallible and that it still comes down to the choices everyone makes, to do good or bad with the Force. That even training Luke is a very dangerous proposition since he can turn despite having Yoda training Luke. That the struggle is real and that it doesn't stop because they passed the trails.

 

Absolutely. It requires that you have that knowledge made available to you. Same with any knowledge. Take physics, for example...or take that back further to when the early Imperial extreme-orthodox Christianity destroyed (or attempted to) all 'heathen' knowledge. Much work from that time was lost to the West, much knowledge. It would have taken centuries more to get back to that level of knowledge had not the works that had survived destruction found their way back into centres of learning. That (being ignorant because of not having knowledge made available to you) is not the same as being incapable of understanding science - ie there was nothing genetically or mentally about human beings in the West that would stop them from being able to understand science.

In other words, there is a very clear distinction between the idea that one can only do this (science or the Force) because of some notion of mental/genetic capacity, and the idea that knowledge is required.

As above, it is remarkably easy - actually - to lose knowledge. Especially so if there is effort to dissuade the dissemination of knowledge (see above). Also...to return to a notion of martial arts; let's take King Fu as an example. People may feel that they have learnt, or are in some cases, even masters of Kung Fu because of their learning...but then they will visit certain Shaolin temples and other Eastern schools and realise they know so very little; because actually there is required in such techniques a continuous passing on of knowledge and the subtleties of such learning. Do you doubt that Kung Fu exists? And yet...how many times have you seen Kung-Fu fights break out around you? It is available, but people do not take the time to learn it, or perhaps think it irrelevant.

How is it a "smart move" to remove any meaningful notion behind a line from a movie you are supposedly building up to?

 

Because Yoda has trained a lot of Jedi in his long life. He's had plenty of successes...





And a few failures...





You start from TPM and go to ROTJ, you see that while Yoda can train Jedi well, there is still the possibility that Luke might fall regardless of Yoda. Hence the reason for concern about training Luke in TESB and the ambiguity of whether or not he was going to adhere to the Jedi path, or fall like his father in ROTJ. Obi-wan feels that he's failed because of his own pride.

 

Didn't Lucas himself say in DVD commentary for A new hope he wanted midichloreans in the movie but had to cut it from the script?
It was either in the special edition DVD for episode 4.... or the dvd for episode 1. One of them had commentary of him saying that I believe. Anyone can confirm/disprove it? I might just have to go relisten to it again to reassure myself....but first TFA needs to be seen tonight

 

The original Force is the one shown in ANH. And it falls perfectly in line with what we learn in the PT and later OT. Obi Wan, one of the last remaining Jedi in the Galaxy has been in hiding, waiting for 20 years for the son of Skywalker to come of age. Because his potential power might be able to defeat the Emperor he could not. Right there the entire concept of anyone can use the Force falls apart. The only reason Luke is seen as the one fit for the task is because of his parentage. Nothing to do with his will power, interest or dedication in any way.

 

The use of midi-chlorians in ROTS is memorable. Palpatine telling the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise is a mythic SW scene.

 

This interpretation relies heavily on having seen later films, where Luke has become the last hope, and Anakin is some Messiah, who passed his power to his children. Also, what good is having another Jedi, aka Luke, when thousands of Jedi could not stop The Empire? The real reason Obi-Wan comes out of hiding, is:

"Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire."

They have to opportunity to deliver a blow to the Empire, but failure would mean the end of the Rebellion, and all hope would be lost. This is the new hope the film was originally referring to, not Luke. Obi-Wan was watching over the orphan son of his dead friend, there was nothing more to it than that. Then a unique opportunity presents itself, in the form of a fledgling Rebellion, which is the first real hope of defeating tyranny.Thousands of Jedi have failed, and one Jedi student and his geriatric mentor are not going to change that. However, a group of rebels, who have shown they can deal out a defeat to the Empire, might have a better chance with The Force on their side. So, the concept of anyone can use The Force is perfectly fine.

Even having seen the entire OT your argument falls apart. The Emperor has absolutely no problems with Luke, and could have defeated him, with one hand tied behind his back. So, Luke's potential power was never the issue. It was the Emperor's hold over Vader that was the central core of that story line. Luke's relation to Vader was the real danger. However, this only really came into play, with the reveal that Vader is Luke's father.

So, what falls apart is the retroactively applying knowledge from later films on the 1977 Star Wars, to explain the motivations of the characters, and then pretending this was the way the film was written in the first place.

 

No, a new hope refers to Luke, he is the new hope to restore the light side to become a new Jedi.

 

That statement has no basis, other than in the context of a post-The Empire Strikes Back retcon, when the subtitle was added to the first film. As far as the first film is concerned, the light side and dark side of the Force are relatively minor plot points. Both Obi-Wan and Darth Vader are seen as relics of the past. Darth Vader is treated with contempt by his peers, showing that The Force has no relevance to the Empire. They trusted in technology. The Emperor, as written in the novelization, was still a bureaucrat, with no Force powers. The only people who are in to the Force are Obi-Wan, Vader, and Luke. The first film was about Rebels versus Empire, with a hint of spiritualism. The opening crawl makes clear that this is the central conflict. The whole Jedi versus Sith storyline, would slowly be introduced in The Empire Strikes Back. Trying to force this plotline on the first film, is revisionism.

 

No it isn't. It was Luke's use of the force that saved the Rebels and dealt a great blow to the Empire. It is pretty clear even in ANH that this was the dark times, the Empire hunted down and killed the Jedi knights, with Ben being the only know survivor at that point. Luke is the new hope to become a Jedi and lead the rebel to victory. The first film is about the start of Luke's hero journey with the Empire vs Rebels war as a backdrop.

Oh, in the first film, it is Luke, Obi-Wan, and Vader who are force users, not just Luke and Obi-Wan. It is also very probelmatic to use early drafts to cite as they differ from the final films. In ANH Luke was going to be a girl for awhile, Han and Obi-Wan were going to be the same person, wookies were going to be bad guys, etc. It is well known Lucas likes to change his mind alot. Plus it can be argued ANH suffers from "early canon weirdness" as TV tropes puts it when the story isn't quite fully flushed out yet and so early installments tend to be weird.

 

I said it is Luke, Obi-Wan and Vader in my original post. Of course Luke's hero's journey is central to the story. Also, Luke relying on the Force, rather than technology is one of the big themes. However, the central conflict is Rebels versus Empire, not light side versus dark side. We're still at a point in the story, where both Luke and the audience has to come to terms with The Force being a reality. The fact that there is a dark side is only mentioned in passing. Vader is presented in the film as the main enforcer of the Empire, and the killer of Luke's father. So, there's a personal side to the conflict, with Luke having to confront the man who killed his father some day. However, as far as the first film is concerned, Darth Vader is the sole representative of the dark side of the Force. He's a single Jedi turned bad, and defeating him, is Luke settling a personal score, not an intergalactic conflict between the light side and the dark side of The Force. Additionally, this personal conflict is clearly not the central conflict of this film, and is only used to setup future installments.

 

Isn't midichlorians essentially just a way of explaining why some Jedi are more powerful/more capability/more potential than other Jedi and why some people aren't cut out to be Force users?

Why is this such a bad thing? It explains why Han Solo wasn't running around with a lightsaber in the OT at the very least.

 

Well, if you prefer a Star Wars universe with Jedi being super heroes it's not a problem. However many fans prefer a Star Wars universe, where The Force does not discriminate. A good analogy for PT Force users is rich people that inherited their money, rather than work hard for it, or a 100 meter dash, where some people get a 50 meter head start. The PT introduces a caste system, where you're either a have or a have not (or have little). It just doesn't sit right with some of us.

 

Because to me, the OT's message was that the mind was more important than the body.
That a great jedi was determined by how patient, wise and enlightened they were.
Now it is more tied with what they can do.
A Jedi that can jump 20 feet in the air using the Force is a worse Jedi than one that can jump 30 feet in the air. It ranks Jedi by their blood. Yoda is a better Jedi than Obi-Wan because Yoda has more midis.

It also have other problems, like if a high midi count is always passed on then this will slowly but surely increase the average midi count of people in the galaxy.
So over time, high midi counts will be more and more common and everyone will become more Force sensitive.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Just a question, DrDre, but why did you cross out multiple sentences there? Starwars.com has that passage written this way:

"In this Lucas was consistent with what he’d said in the summer of 1977 — the first time he’d had to explain in more detail many of his concepts:

“The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life. It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

[Please note: While we were preparing the text for The Making of Star Wars, Lucas added a note to this passage about midi-chlorians, bringing his original words in line with his later thoughts and the events of the prequel trilogy.]"

As far as I can tell, the only thing Lucas added was "they have more midichlorians in their cells" but it seems like the idea that certain creatures could be born with higher awareness has been around since 1977. I was just wondering why you crossed out so many lines. Here is the source:
http://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians