The Holocaust distinguished from WWII........

Well, I have a simple question. Well, it could be simple.

I've read that the Holocaust is the genocide of European Jews during WWII. I've read on timelines that on Sep 1st, 1939, Germany invaded Poland, and WWII began then. But was Poland armed? Because a war is an armed conflict between two or more states or countries. I don't think they were armed, and I don't think that WWII actually started 'til other countries came in and stuff. I've also read that they didn't start exterminating Jews... that the genocide didn't begin until 1941. But I suppose the Jews were dying of starvation and stuff til then. So when did WWII really start and when did the Holocaust really start?

Thanks for clearing it up if you can.

 

I believe they had an outdated cavalry, and very old guns. Nothing that could put up a fight with panzer tanks though.

 

Whether Poland was armed or not, Britain and France declared war on Nazi Germany when they invaded Poland. Britian and France were armed.

The "Holocaust" in the sense I think you are refering to is the Final Solution, which didn't happen until late 41 early 42. Google the Wannsee Conference for more information on the Final Solution.

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html

 

"The Final Solution" also included the extermination of gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally disabled and everybody that wasn't Aryan, not only Jew.

As a Jew myself, I believe we should include EVERYBODY the Nazis killed when we say Holocaust. The horror of the Holocaust goes beyond the extermination of one people, but the extermination of many people.

 

But was Poland armed?

Yes.

 

"The Final Solution" also included the extermination of gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally disabled and everybody that wasn't Aryan, not only Jew.

As a Jew myself, I believe we should include EVERYBODY the Nazis killed when we say Holocaust. The horror of the Holocaust goes beyond the extermination of one people, but the extermination of many people.

I know it was, but half of the people WERE Jews, and excluding the extermination, they treated Jews worse. I do agree with you, and I am also Jewish, but the Jews were treated much worse back then than the others to be exterminated. "The Final Solution" was really against all non-Aryans? I thought it was against the Jews, but they ended up exterminating other groups in the process. Click here and read it.

Here's an excerpt from it:

With respect of the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would live to see their annihilation in it. That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence.

To be honest with you, I have no idea how ANYBODY survived. You'd probably think that I'd probably be one with a very good guess of how one survived the Holocaust, considering the fact that my own grandfather survived, but I still can't understand how ANYONE survived. And if you hear factual information about the Holocaust, it most likely was MUCH worse than it sounds.

 

WW2 did indeed start after the invasion of Poland, as France and Britain declared war soon after that.

As for the Holocaust it is very debatable when it started, do you start it when the killing started or other times?

I choose to start it after the Nazi party gained control of Germany in 1933 and started it's terror campaigns against the jews, business boycots, and the expulssion of Jewish professionals.

 

You could make a case that the Holocaust commenced with the declaration of the Nuremburg Laws, that essentially made Jews non-people in the eyes of German law in the 1930s. Personally, that's my belief.

 

"But was Poland armed?"

What lanky said. Of course they were armed. Germany didn't just march in, straight to Warsaw, and begin holding parades. I believe it took them at least several weeks.

 

You could make a case that the Holocaust commenced with the declaration of the Nuremburg Laws, that essentially made Jews non-people in the eyes of German law in the 1930s. Personally, that's my belief.

Well, lets read up on the definition of a couple of words first:

Holocaust: The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II.

genocide: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

Now, they weren't planned to be exterminated until "The Final Solution", were they?

What lanky said. Of course they were armed. Germany didn't just march in, straight to Warsaw, and begin holding parades. I believe it took them at least several weeks.

Hmm, yeah. Sounds plausible. My grandpa says he was taken to the ghetto 8 or 10 days into September of 1939.

 

Actually,
during WW2, Poland's armed forces were the 4th largest of the Allied Powers. (Russia, US, Great Britian, Poland)

It did have isolated units of horse cavalry, but fielded modern military equipment.

Poland's CWS-17 tank was a copy of France's Renault FT-17, and early in the war, was equal to the German Panzers.(its 37mm gun became quickly outclassed)

Poland's bomber command even managed to attack Berlin with a bomber group, but was too small to be effective.

Poland's problem was outdated tatics. Like France, it relied on a defensive nature to postion troops. It was too static.

The German use of combined arms and Blitzkreig simply out manuvered the Poles, along with every other country early in the war.

EDIT: the initial campaign took about 5 weeks, starting on sept 1 1939 and ending on Oct 6 1939.
This was not the end of the fighting in Poland, but Warsaw was taken and the armed forces ceased to be organized.(although 100,000+ troops escaped and formed the FPB that fought alongside of the English troops)

 

Now, they weren't planned to be exterminated until "The Final Solution", were they?

There were differing opinons on what to do with them. Leading up to the Wannsee Protocol there were isolated incidents of mass killings. Some historians believe this was something of a litmus test for the humanity of the Nazis and Nazi collaborators (Polish, Ukrainians, Jews). Prior to the conference there was no official plan for extermination that amounted to more than anti-Semitic fantasies.

Two books I highly recommend on the subject.
Martin Gilbert "The Holocaust"
Hannah Arendt "Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil"

 

The SS-Einsatzgruppen began gathering Jews, Communists, and the intelligentsia of Eastern Europe at the beginning of Operation Barbarossa. Mass executions began very shortly thereafter. The first five digit mass killing took place in August of 1941, over 23,000 were killed in the incident. The largest single execution took place at Babi Yar outside of Kiev over two days. 33,000 people were murdered.

Isolated incidents took place seperately from the actions of the Einsatzgruppen, but they were specially organized for the purpose of murdering Jews. The Einsatzgruppen was disbanded nearing 1943 as death camps became the most widely used method for eliminating Jews.

 

Ah, helpful info. Thanks.

I hear Adolf Eichmann was the one who actually thought of concentration camps.

 

Not the concentration camps, but rather the idea of deliberate, organised slaughter in the camps. Concentration camps were a concept that dated back at least to the Boer War, if not beyond, and were used by the British in South Africa to detain the Afrikaans civilian non-combatants.

 

I think, new was the "extermination camps". Camps, how work only to kill people. Belzec, Maidanek, Treblinka I think. In this camp, there wasn't any selection. All people, ho arrived, were killed (only a few live a bit longer, If the German need workers to burry the dead people and so one). I head heard, in Belzec only six ore so people survived - more than half a million whas killed there.

And yes, Poland has weapons (and their bombers wasn't so bad). Even the nazi-Whermacht lost more than 10.000 man and some aircraft. But of course the polish losses were much higher.

 

Ardiff who said they were burried? 90% of the time they were just dumped into a ditch in the camp and left to rot.

 

France declared war and was armed? WOW!!! Now if only that could happen in todays world.

Anyway, the Holocaust started before WW2. It helped actually start the war.

 

As a Jew myself the Holocost is also for those who were Hated by Nazis. They also hated Slavic people and They Hated Arabs,Blacks.Asians,everybody that was not tutonic. Spike_Spiegel I was posting this to you.

 

They killed a lot of Catholics as well. The Jews were just the most publisized people killed.

 

Arabs, Blacks, Asians



There were many black and asian people fighting in the German Army.


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Not forever.

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You are the terrorist!!, not Arafat and his country. Why you must bomb Syria and Iran? Because they are arab nations? You are a racist.

 

rednep that was probably the most usless post i've ever seen, and what are you doing replying to his signature? Bah,

Oh and if you are going to post things like
What do you think israelis are?

Please post some proof or give an example or just plain keep your mouth shut!

And no we shouldn't bomb them because they are arab... That probably wasn't even on his mind when he posted that. We should bomb them because they are a terrorist nations. You do NOT call someone a terrorist, because they believe in military action to stop something.

Go home and come back with a useful post.

 

We should bomb them because they are a terrorist nations.

Israel uses the same technique to kill the Palestinians. Israel also is a terrorist nation. It is going the US to bomb Israel? NO.

EDITED

 

Why don't you both shut up and get back on the subject.

 

Are you a mod to make me shut up? I do not think so.

I suggest you re-read the Senate guidelines before posting anything more. Take that as you will.

Things need to get back on topic.