Saga The Jedi Romance thread

This is a topic that has come up in many different threads, but doesn’t currently have an active thread of its own. This thread was created with the intent of having a central area for discussion on this topic.

In the original trilogy, the Jedi clearly took influence from real-life monastics (or monks), both western and eastern. Monastic orders discourage worldly attachments in order to focus on the spiritual. In many orders, this includes either forbidding or strongly discouraging marriage. Many might’ve assumed the Jedi are similar. However, nothing in the original trilogy expressly ruled out the idea of Jedi being in love or getting married. The main romantic couple of the trilogy weren’t Jedi, so there was no need to address it.

Come the prequel trilogy, it was made very clear that the Jedi Order forbid its members from falling in love, let alone marrying. It formed one of the central conflicts of Attack of the Clones. And many interpretations of Revenge of the Sith would argue that it supports the Jedi prohibition; the film depicts Anakin’s fall to the dark side as motivated primarily by his desire to protect the love of his life, Padme. However, it can be argued that the Jedi prohibition actually led to tragedy of the film, by forcing Anakin to keep his internal struggle secret and thus preventing him from seeking support from people who weren’t power-hungry Sith Lords.

The sequel trilogy was very romance-light compared to both of the previous trilogies. The first two films had hints of interest between both Rey/Finn and Rey/Ben, but these were ambiguous enough for people to interpret them platonically. In the end, the kiss between Rey and Ben was only included at the last minute production-wise, which, combined with Ben’s immediately following death, means the trilogy doesn’t

Jedi romance was rather common in the Legends EU continuity, with perhaps the most well known EU Jedi marriages being Luke/Mara and Revan/Bastila. Still, it was allegedly a divisive issue among Legends EU authors. In the canon EU, Jedi romance seems to be less common thus far, with perhaps the most notable examples being Kanan/Hera and Cal/Merrin.

All of this leaves us with an aspect of Star Wars that still lacks a definitive answer: should Jedi fall in love? Some other sub-questions, to provide food for thought:

• Does it make more sense, in-universe, for the Jedi to forbid or tolerate romance?
• Is Jedi romance generally a good or bad thing, storywise? Is it something writers should embrace or avoid?
• Is there one correct answer, and should the franchise take a clear stance one way or the other?

 

Luke‘s hero’s journey was not about becoming another Yoda or Obi-wan. They were simply one angel on his shoulder, ones who emphasise the greater good over the individual, understandable given their history. They are the Spock to Luke’s Kirk. Being a hero is about balancing both sides. And with the happy ending and Vader’s redemption, the movie seems to champion how Luke can be a “Jedi”, a hero, by following his heart to do what he knows is right, even if there was point to be learned about lacking patience.

And so it feels most narratively natural for the stories after this point to involve a Jedi Order modelled after this philosophy, that doesn’t emphasise lack of attachments to the degree the old Jedi did (no contact with your family, not even on weekends!), including romance.

I know it gets messy with Luke’s ultimatum with attachments with Grogu, but that can be another example of Luke’s Master growing pains, not sure why he’s reverting to teachings of old (one’s own impulses often differ with what one might agree with on paper, especially when stepping into a teacher role, responsible for influencing the path of others). It’s the same issue Rey could be dealing with in the the new movie, with a slavish devotion to what she perceives to be Luke’s will (honouring her new namesake) and the ways of the Jedi which now rest on her shoulders, but I would very much like there to be a conversation between Rey and Luke unpacking all this (a Mara Jade revelation?). Maybe the most Luke/Leia thing for Rey to do is to simply go with her gut and have the courage to go against millenia of grain, despite all the backlash that will follow.

(At the same time I think you could show lack of attachments in a really positive way as well, in different eras. It’s what I wish they did in the Obi-wan series (season 2 perhaps), exploring the knight who outlived his religion, outlived anyone enforcing the code on him, with the opportunity to start experiencing everything he gave up (we still need a flashback story of Obi falling in love with Satine) a wife, a child, etc, only in the end to revert to his monk life, this time with a greater sense of pride through actual agency in his decision to be a Jedi).

 

Yes Jedi should be able to marry, but only other Jedi.

Results of Jedi + Jedi love:

Revan redeems Bastila, they Marry and have a son, both stay Light Side.

Luke redeems Mara Jade, they Marry and have a son, both stay Light Side.

The issue is when Jedi marry or get romantically entangled with non-Force sensitives:

Anakin marries Padme, falls to the dark side and Padme dies.

Satale Shan and Jace Malcom, Satale ends up in exile with Ghost Darth Marr after having kid out of wedlock.

Kenobi and Satine, Satine dies.

Other:

Asajj Ventress and Quilian Vos were both Jedi at one point, but they also went dark side and I cannot recall is Asajj offically was accepted as Jedi again, if so it ended in tagedy.

 

Yeah, regardless of where one stands on the issue of Jedi attachments overall, I do think it's weird for Luke specifically to insist on the "no attachments" rule. There's no reason for Luke to try and save Vader except for the attachment he feels towards him as a son towards their father.

As you said, I hope it gets handwaved as growing pains for Luke, maybe him trying too hard to emulate the original Jedi Order.

 

Well to be fair, in the episode Luke tells Ahsoka he doesn’t know what he’s doing, and doesn’t know how to teach Grogu, so I definitely think this could be part of a greater story for Luke figuring this stuff out. (Maybe it takes a certain redhead to change his tune)

 

From my point of view, marriage should be a totally free choice.

There are Jedi who feel the need to be emotionally attached to someone, just as there are Jedi who find self-satisfaction simply by serving the Galaxy and don't feel the need to have a family. Every individual is different and has different needs, therefore every individual should be free to take the path they see fit. If you want to serve the Galaxy and have a family at the same time, then you must be free to do so, by learning to balance the two aspects of your life. On the other hand, if your personal satisfaction comes simply from serving the Galaxy and you don't feel the need to have a personal life outside of the Order, then you shouldn't feel obligated to get married.

In other words, having emotional attachments should be a free choice of every single Jedi, based on what he/she needs and what makes him/her truly happy.

There should be two different sections of the Jedi Order: a section with all the Jedi that don't feel the need of getting attached to anyone, and another section of the Order with all the people that want to have a family and a certain degree of attachment towards others. You are the one who decides to which section of the Order you want to belong to, and the teachings are different according to the section you are in.

 

Being a Jedi is not like any other normal job though. Attachments are known to lead to dangerous things in the universe, so permitting marriage is not a good thing. Nope, we’re not promoting mutilation for trolling purposes here.

 

No. Because it's up to the Jedi to decide what a Jedi is or isn't allowed to do and they don't allow this.

 

Having conditions to fulfill a role is not the same as taking away the basis of self control. Jedi who fall in love may resign from their position and be as attached to a person or family as they like. But the Jedi Knights are an organization with a specific purpose in the galaxy, knowledge of the spiritual through nonattachment to the world and defending peace and justice in the galaxy from the dark side. they must have common strictures to maintain the membership’s adherence to this purpose. You wouldn’t say that Jedi forbidding falling to the dark side means they have no choices. And one always has the choice to break rules

 

Great topic worth exploring. First I think it's important to set some definitions, primarily with attachment and non-attachment.

Going by monastic traditions from around the world, which is what Lucas seemed to have in mind, attachment is clinging to and seeking a permanent source of happiness from impermanent things. It's identifying one's self with outside sources and a desire for these things that give you pleasure to remain the same, and a fear you'll be hurt if you lose it. It's possessiveness and self-centrism.

Non-Attachment is appreciating people and things, and giving without thought of reward, without expecting them to fulfill your wishes and desires. Basically it's unconditional acceptance and compassion. It's a way of not identifying one's self with fixed ideas of the way they want things to be. It's equanimity with things that are beyond your control, and making peace with impermanence.

You could say caring vs. craving. Non-attachment is like allowing a river to flow, while attachment is like a dam.

The western world, i.e. The Oxford dictionary, defines attachment as: a feeling of love or strong connection to someone or something. But in the Eastern world, i.e. ancient Sanskrit, it is the source of a fire; in Buddhism it is the source of the fire of suffering. So, since it's common to see some jumbling of the two, I thought I'd throw that in. (There's also the attachment between a baby and it's caregivers which is natural and healthy. For the baby to cling to the caregiver, and the caregiver to prioritize protecting the baby above all else, even if it means sacrificing one's self to protect the baby).


I'd also suggest it wasn't Luke's attachment to his father that saved the two of them and the galaxy, it was his non-attachment. Initially, Luke felt a connection with Anakin and was devoted to saving him, but it was conditional upon Anakin being redeemed. That's how Luke was able to be goaded into trying to kill Vader, despite swearing he would never do that. When Vader threatens to turn Leia, he violates the conditions under which Luke will love him, and so Luke starts hating him. It is Luke's attachments which nearly drive him to the dark side, just as with his father before.

It's only when Luke decides to confront his own hidden feelings and attachments, and love his father no matter what, good or evil, that he opens himself up to true compassion and unconditional love, which is what finally succeeds in getting through to Anakin and turning him back to the good side. Not that he condones the evil, but that he still loves Anakin as a person regardless.

Thich Nhat Hanh said, love in such a way that the person you love feels free.


Something else I often see is the notion that Jedi can't have a caring connection with people. I get the impression they can and do, they are just also trained to accept change when it comes. There's also the notion they can't fall in love. But if we go by TCW, we see even Obi-Wan couldn't help himself from that, as he says, its not that they're not allowed to have these feelings, it's natural. They/he just doesn't let his feelings control him and doesn't get into a relationship because that would open a door to inevitably forming attachments.

Because having a family requires one to make their family their highest priority, otherwise they are letting them down. And being a Jedi is not just a job, it's a way of life, and Jedi have super powers that can cause large scale damage. With great power comes great responsibility. In service to the galaxy, the Jedi sacrifice starting a personal family, and are part of the Jedi family. And therefore remain uncompromised in their duty.


I would imagine Luke would see family and attachments as unwise. He and Anakin were exceptions - having family and coming out of it without attachment, but Luke would know all to well the risks involved. You can say the Jedi weren't able to directly relate to Anakin and his situation, but now the Jedi have Force ghost Anakin to give first hand experience if the situation ever comes up again.

With that said I think writers should feel free to touch on this topic, and that it's an interesting thought experiment to play with that can be hard to answer definitively. It just seems to me that if all Jedi could marry, you've got a recipe for disaster somewhere. And you can't make exceptions, so...

 

Ki-adi Mundi holding on line one...

 

I don't think that aspect is implied and if we are to take Obi-Wan's claims as truthful or at least serious it goes pretty against that, instead that Luke's father wanted him to become a Jedi including take/inherit his lightsaber and so Jedi having families with that inheriting was allowed, common, at least accepted. Of course we later learn Obi-Wan was lying a storm but better that his claim still be able to be taken seriously rather than ridiculous, completely odds with what the situation actually was.

There are some advantages, some making sense, to forbidding it but I think more disadvantages to forbidding especially that it still happening but having to be/choosing to be secret is the worst outcome but still too likely.

I think storywise they're generally a very good thing, without them it can make the Jedi seem too attached just to their own order and too removed from the other characters and the general non-member galaxy as well as the reader/viewer.

While I do prefer that the Jedi allow romance I don't think the franchise would ever outright say Lucas and his vision/preferred vision was wrong so there will just be wink wink ambiguity, that it's not a really good idea, that it's always going to be controversial with downsides but of course most readers/viewers prefer it so Luke/some later leader(s) decided it's ok despite knowing the controversies and risks though maybe it was the old Jedi who were actually right, right in their own way.

 

Absolutely Jedi should be able to have romantic relationships,

to argue otherwise is to argue against nature.

 

Personally, I think fandom and "official" writers alike should think long and hard about the implications of the notion that an ideal Jedi Order should follow the same zero-tolerance rules on physical & marital relationships as Catholic priests.

 

If this is implying what I think it’s supposed to imply:

1. More religions than Catholicism encourage or demand sexual abstinence among monastics.
2. The idea that sexual abstinence leads child predation is a hateful, bigoted canard with no scientific basis.

This is really not a good argument to use on this topic.

Not to my knowledge.

 

well Luke did give a choice to Grogu...

so I think it is pretty clear about the no-attachments rule still being a thing, no?

 

Am I wrong or is Ki-Adi-Mundi's family part of legends?

But if it is/were to be canon, take into consideration how it still manages to fit in perfectly with the narrative of the PT, which centers largely around dilemmas in which the Jedi are making exceptions for the greater good of the galaxy, or in this case, the protection of a species -- and then Anakin turning things around and justifying his acting on his personal desires for his own good.

When the Jedi walk these various razor edges, it makes it easy for someone like Anakin to view them merely as hypocrites, thus fueling his frustrations, rather than reflecting on all the nuances involved.

So I'd say if the Jedi made an exception for Ki-Adi-Mundi because of extenuating circumstances concerning his species, it helps serve the dynamic of the narrative.

And it is a good example of food for thought when writing SW stories; are there times when an exception could be warranted? Are there compelling ways to answer the OP question with, "It depends" that serve the saga?

Some Jedi may be able to have a family while remaining non-attached, but not all of them can. So a blanket rule make sense to me. And allowing species-specific exceptions would only add to the vitality and intrigue of everything, especially you've got a character like Anakin involved.

 

I feel like obviously allowing love opens the door for attachment... But closing the door I feel like is honestly more dangerous than leaving it open. If Anakin could fully address his whole situation both with Padme and Shmi, I do really think there is significant chance he finds his peace, or at the very least does not fall under Palpatine's influence even if he does leave the order or end up falling to the dark side due to attachment and grief. Forbidding love I feel causes more problems than it solves. I do feel like the question is ambiguous and could be taken in many directions. I Hope there are a plethora of answers and I don't think a right answer needs to be given.

 

Where did the rule about not making attachments come from? Is this explained in the EU? It seems counterintuitive to what the Force is, but what do I know about the Force. I understand keeping emotions out of fighting and decision making, but aren't the Jedi supposed to be compassionate?

Anyway, this thread is about romance. Face it, romance happens no matter what or who you are. Anakin having to hide his marriage and feelings for Padme is why I think it is one of the reasons he fell to the dark side. He had to lie, hide his emotions, and always have to be on guard when he was around her. Not the Jedi way as I understand it. Of course, there were a whole lot of other problems with that relationship.

I doubt Jedi romance would be about flowers and candy, but about connection. The understanding of their partners emotions not a bunch of PDA. Is a Jedi kicked out the order if they fall in love? That's a bit too much like some religions IRL for me to be comfortable with.

 

My own feelings on this are a bit complicated.

For starters, I can see where the prohibition comes from. The Jedi, as we see them, are supposed to be ascetic. In many traditions (including those that most clearly influenced the Jedi), avoiding sex is part of asceticism. I think it is very off-the-mark to argue that asceticism is “against human nature” or that it’s “oppressive”, and that it therefore shouldn’t be a Jedi tradition, as some people in this thread do.

Asceticism is supposed to be voluntary, so it is not oppressive, and while you can make an argument that it’s “against human nature”, that’s kind of the entire point; it’s about overcoming crude materialism and physical pleasures and achieving self-discipline. One of the thing that separates the Jedi from the Justice League or the Avengers is that they have a grounding philosophy and code of behavior beyond “fighting bad guys”. This is part of that.

All that said, I still think the prohibition, as shown in the movies, is wrong. It doesn’t make much sense and does more harm than good.

First off, it is bizarre that it is often phrased as “don’t fall in love”; with the emphasis placed on the emotion rather than the physical act. This is the inverse of what most real-world traditions teach: love is virtuous and beautiful, sexuality (though not inherently evil in most traditions) needs to be handled with care. And I think this teaching fits the Jedi way better than what we’re shown.

Second, the “don’t fall in love” rule is most often justified as being to avoid attachments. But most Jedi aren’t hermits, anchorites, or desert priests. They’re active within the Order and the wider society. They have friends, mentors, students, and comrades-in-arms. Those relationships can be powerful attachments as well. So it seems like romantic love is being singled out, rather than the Jedi being consistent.

Finally, almost no real-world religion demands abstinence of all its members. Many see abstinence as virtuous, but only make it obligatory for certain ranks, orders, or roles within the religion. The Jedi seem to expel anyone who wants to get married.

Really, I think if the last part were changed, it would solve a lot of the Jedi’s problems. They can still expect a higher degree of self-sacrifice, control, and detachment from certain ranks or branches of the Order, but Jedi should be able to fall in love and have families while still participating in the Order.

 

First of all, I think it is not only wrong to try, but literally impossible, to "forbid" someone to love, or have any kind of emotions. What can be forbidden is actions, certain behavior, or always acting on emotions, not simply having any. Trying to actually eliminate or even punish feelings comes disturbingly close to Orwell and "thought crimes". I doubt this kind of oppression is what Lucas originally had in mind when he made the OT. The Jedi, to me at least, were a lot more relatable as an ambiguous and probably very wise and tolerant group as suggested in the OT. That changed with, at the very latest, AOTC. At that point the Jedi order comes across as blind, intolerant, uncaring, cold-hearted individuals who suffer from tunnel vision that is focussed on their ideology and too far removed from the real world, which happens to include emotions and differing feelings and opinions. And honestly, there is nobody in the Jedi council in the PT that I particularly like or feel relatable. It's basically a bunch of old "men" sitting in a room and theorizing instead of acting.
Sure, they do become more active in ROTS, but by then it's too late. They failed miserably in sensing or anticipating any danger even when it's right in front of them. Frankly, I found them very disappointing. If they, AND the senate, are that worthless and unobservant, then I'd say Sidious is justified in taking power into his own hands. His power was actually handed to him on a silver tray. All he did was take what was offered. Windu was obviously entirely unprepared and overwhelmed when he tried to "arrest" him, with just a lousy two other Jedi to accompany him, that managed to get themselves killed within seconds.
Secondly, I have a problem with the concepts "love" and "marriage" being randomly interchanged. Marriage is basically more a legal or religious status rather than an indicator of actual feelings. There are marriages entirely without love, while there are emotional relations and attractions without there being any "evidence" on paper. Anakin and Padmé could certainly have been together without getting a legal status document. Frankly, that idea seems a little dated in the SW universe, especially since they wanted to keep it secret. It would have been a lot easier to keep it secret without hiring a guy in a remote area on Naboo to get them "legalized".
I DO like that finale and "Across the Stars" in AOTC though. My favorite finale of all the SW movies.

 

I think the problem is some people shouldn’t be allowed into relationships period. Anakin probably never could handle a romantic relationship and it not turn out possessive. That’s the problem when it turns possessive. Actual love is great and I think should be allowed.
Spoilers for Jedi Survivor don’t read unless you don’t care

Spoiler

Jedi Survivor shows this pretty well. Cal Kestis a Jedi who survives order 66 forgoes the rules on relationships and ends up with the nightsister Merrin.this ends up being the only reason he doesn’t fall to the dark side as over the course of the game all his mentors and parental figures die and his best friend betrays him.

Speaking of his best friend we learn he was once a Jedi currently working with the empire to protect his daughter. But by the end of the game it becomes obvious that he is completely obsessed with his daughters safety to the point he endangers her multiple times.

again showing the difference between actual love and possessive love