The Jedi ways are outdated?

After the vong crisis, could the jedi be viewed as too peaceful, and therefore, too weak. What if a group of jedi decided to go there own way and take a more aggressive stance on defending the galaxy. If this did happen, would you consider this a step towards the dark side? They are, after all, doing it for the good of a gallaxy far, far away.

 

Luke pretty much defined aggression for the new generation of Jedi in "Destiny's Way". If a Jedi exceeds this stance on agression its going towards the Dark Side.

So yeah

Shatterpoint is a very good novel about prequel Jedi and war

 

shatterpoint does definitely deal with the similar questions...."doing it for the good of the galaxy" isn't good enough...
anyone have the quote from Shatterpoint about how the war has already cost the jedi because it has caused some to abandon their Jedi principles in order to fight to survive or win.

 

I totally agree. Shatterpoint really showed how the Jedi needed to change their way of thought for war.

 

Were we reading the same novel?

Didn't Mace Windu accomplish everything without breaking his princibles or the Jedi way thus validating that those who broke the rules of war were in fact wrong?

 

The point of Shatterpoint in part is that it is essential to know just which war you are fighting, as much as how.

The other element to it is that it demonstrates very clearly just why Darth Sidious and Tyranus spent so much time setting up the Clone Wars, they wished to create a giant Jedi meat grinder that would weaken them so they could be destroyed by a vengeful populace, the Clone Wars having by then ripped away and destroyed everything good about the Jedi.

However, if you read Shatterpont you will see such a prospect does not bother Mace in the slightest.

JB

 

Yes and no. Obviously some of the old ideas should be tossed out but there are still parts that could be used.
As for defending the galaxy, I think the problem is the newer Jedi seem to have no concept of when a battle is considered a defensive one. As I said in another thread, any attack made on an invading force in your territory is a defensive one. The Jedi (perhaps the authors) fail to understand this and that is the problem, not the ways of the Jedi necessarily.

 

I think that the NJO authors and the senior Jedi characters understand those issues perfectly well. The early Jedi response in NJO is framed by Luke's experiences with the Dark Side and how seductive it is, i.e. the Dark Side Cave, Throne Room Duel, DE, Gantoris, Kyp. Luke wants to find a way not to commit his students to those types of situations, partially I think out of a niggling concern in him that has existed since the marvel days: that he is inadequate as a teacher and therefore does not want his students to face the crucible. He thinks he knows so little, and is therefore relcutant to wear the mantle of Leader. SBS and DW really show a Luke Skywalker who accepts a leadership role, is forced into it, really, not the Luke who is reluctant to lead for fear he's doing it wrong.

 

Here's an idea, leave war to soldiers and leave the Force's will to the Jedi

 

Some things never become outdated. This is one of them...

There is no emotion, there is peace
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge
There is no passion, there is serenity
There is no death, there is the Force

A Jedi must learn to live by the code so they can avoid the snares of the darkness, now you shall see how each section applies.

The Jedi acts to preserve life, to kill is wrong. Sometimes it is necessary to kill. The Jedi may kill in self defense or in defense of others, especially the weak and the good. The Jedi may kill, if by the action they preserve the existance of life. However, the Jedi must never forget that killing is inheriently wrong. The death is a stain upon the Jedi's spirit. The Jedi seeks knowledge and enlightenment, peace and harmony. The Jedi wishes to defeat those who would wipe out such qualities, those who would afflict death, tyranny, or ignorance against others, yet the Jedi should never act out of fear or hatred. A Jedi must act when calm and at peace with the Force. To act with anger filling one's spirit is to risk temptation to the Dark side. Jedi should seek non-violent solutions to problems, but this is not always possible. Sometimes killing, or fighting is the only answer available. Sometimes it is even the best answer, but this doesn't mean that a Jedi should not try to find an alternative.

A Jedi cannot allow evil to take place by inaction, A Jedi who stands by and allows evil to be commited is in essence courting the power of the Dark side. Jedi are also bound by the actions of those around them. It is not acceptible for a Jedi to associate with those who willfully choose to commit evil actions. When confronted by an evil action commited, the Jedi must act to prevent the evil. This can be performed in a variety of ways at the Jedi's disposal, persuaion, creating distratcions, armed action or by simple mind tricks, but some form of action is necessary. To not act is to allow the Dark side a victory, however small. However, the Jedi does this job with a sense of calm and duty taking the burden of the galaxy on without allowing emotion to cloud a Jedi's judgement.

 

Thank you much, Ghengis. Excellent perspective. You should make that its own sticky thread, IMO.

 

Outdated? I think that what we have seen in the New Jedi Order rather reinforces the idea that the Jedi would do far better to rediscover some of what they lost from the time of the Republic.

While the Jedi Order (as opposed to the 'New' Jedi Order) was manipulated into fighting a war that proved their undoing, I think a big part of the moral quagmire they were stuck in was that they were fighting people from their own galaxy, former Republic citizens in a political situation more complex than anyone could anticipate, and orchestrated by a Sith Lord. Against a seemingly extra-galactic* and mundane invading Force I don't think they would have been as hung up about things and would have dealt with things much better than the 'New' Order.

It's not just a question of the Jedi Order's superior numbers that would have made them better prepared... it was their training and outlook, as well as the traditions and history they had to draw from. The 'New' Jedi Order is the product of one man's efforts, who I will grant has done the best he could, to recreate the Order from virtually nothing: a year of crash-course training and exposure to Jedi of the old Order at best and scraps of information here and there. Ten Jedi Order Jedi Knights would have spent their lives reflecting on the philosophy of the Jedi; and the questions and moral implications that arise from fighting the Vong would have been second nature to them. Ten New Jedi Order Jedi Knights have to stop and question what is the right thing to do and still have debates on the nature of the Force while coral skippers are spewing hot lava at them.

No, the Jedi ways are not outdated. If anything, the 'New' Jedi Order could do with an infusion of what made the 'old' Jedi Order what they were.

As for the rest of the galaxy thinking the Jedi are too weak, I really don't see that happening. Part of the frustration and anger directed at the New Jedi Order wasn't that they didn't act, but that they should have acted more decisively and sooner, and that they had isolated themselves from the rest of the galaxy with an Academy on a backwater world, a lack of education (within the Order and to the public at large who have become unfamiliar with the Jedi) about what the Order is all about, and the whole thing looking like the Skywalker/Solo family business. It's not a question of looking weak, it's more like people were saying "Skywalker, control your Jedi!" or "Skywalker, what took you so long?"

Luke's training emphasis is often on providing basic Force instruction and then leaving students to their own strengths and morality. Jedi of the old Order had more education and time to reflect on ethics before being thrown out there. By the time they reached Knight level, every hypothetical situation out there was probably thrown at them so that they could just act.

Luke was effective in building an Order of Force warriors quickly to meet the needs of the galaxy. But these warriors are ill-equipped to deal with the vagaries of something like a Yuuzhan Vong war, having only dealt with fairly direct and obvious situations like the latest Imperial warlord or crime boss.

The ways of the Jedi are not outdated, they need to be revived in their entirety for the Jedi to be effective. The New Jedi Order is not the Jedi Order, although they are trying to be just that.

One positive thing about the Yuuzhan Vong war was bringing so many of the 'New' Jedi back together to share ideas and experiences and although many fans get annoyed with the debates and discussions they were having early on the series, they were necessary. We have the advantage of seeing firsthand what the Jedi Order was like, and so the debates seem meaningless, repetitive or boring, but the New Jedi Order does not have the same information, so they need to do this to learn what we already know. I think the writers could have presented it better so that it was more fresh and interesting for us while the New Order went through Remedial Jedi Ethics classes.

Unfortunately, towards the end of the NJO

 

Good post, Sinje. If anything is outdated, it is the role of the Jedi. The Republic now has a standing military. It has local law enforcement and a judiciary made of bureaucrats and officials. Thus, many of the capacities in which Jedi served are now obsolete and, as stated above, the total public reaction to the Jedi is far too suspicious to allow them to just take over where they left off before the purge.

How, then, do you reinvent the role of the Jedi?

 

Since you asked, I've thought about this, too, Shadeleader. While trying to decide on what an 'ideal' Jedi Order would look like - at least in my mind. The old Order suffered from bureaucracy. The New Jedi Order suffers from a lack of focus or control. There's got to be a middle ground.

I think there are aspects of the New Jedi Order which can be salvaged which can help the Jedi find their place in the galaxy. The New Jedi Order relies a great deal on an individual Jedi's own experiences and talents.

The problem is that they do this far too early in the Jedi's education. What you wind up with is a collection of individuals left to their own devices rather than a group representing an ideal. The original Jedi Order emphasized ethical training and understanding of the Force that was universal to all students, and also instructed apprentices that their actions reflected on the Jedi as a whole. Once this general instruction was over and they became Knights, then they were able to play to their individual strengths and talents, producing Jedi healers, diplomats and a little bit of everything else as well as Jedi 'warriors'. Even their warriors seemed to resolve more problems with their lightsabers unignited than blazing.

Not to diminish what Luke has done, but it's more like he gives them an overview of Jedi ideology, shows them how to move big rocks and then says "Go forth, and kick some @$$ - but beware the dark side."

Really, because Yoda didn't have time to do much more than that with him, it's all he knows. So I won't place any blame on him for the purposes of this discussion.

On the other hand, now that Luke has more 'trained' Jedi to rely on, the New Jedi Order seems to benefit from instruction from more than one master whereas once a Jedi got to the 'padawan' level of competence in the old Order, he had only one source of instruction.

The problem, as I see it, with the 'old' Jedi Order's Master-Padawan system is that as hard as they try, some Master-Padawan relationships just aren't going to work, or the experiences that the young Jedi receives might be too narrow (consider the padawan who might have had the potential to be a very talented healer, but is trained under combat master Master Windu; or conversely a more action-oriented padawan who gets stuck training under a Jedi healer - square pegs into round holes), or things might get too personal ("It's Obi-Wan's fault. He's holding me back!")

I would favor Academy training for basic Force use, ethics, education (in the case of children or those from more primitive societies), history and so on - which is followed by padawan apprenticeships under more than one master. A master teaches the apprentice what he feels he needs to pass on, then 'returns' the padawan to the Council for assignment to another master, and then another before he can go on to take the trials to become a Jedi Knight.

The Jedi gets the solid grounding in what it means to be a Jedi and the nature of the Force from the Academy, just as in the old Order. He then gets to learn directly from the wisdom and experience of multiple Masters, one at a time, until he is ready to become a Knight. Also, what worked for one Jedi will not work for another, so the one Master-one Padawan system fails in that respect as well. Master Windu might be able to take on a more combative role without risk of the dark side. A more morally ambiguous student or someone with less than his unsurpassed discipline might fall by emulating him - if Master Windu were his only master for his entire apprenticeship. If Mace sends this hypothetical student back to be assigned to another Master, the risk is reduced.

He also sees Jedi fulfilling various roles before becoming a Knight, and can decide what role he wishes to play in the galaxy as a Jedi based on his own strengths, what appealed to him more from his different masters (who are each fulfilling different roles), and so on. After the trials, a Jedi can go out and act as a healer like Cilghal, or perhaps an ethicist advising worlds or