The Jedi's Hidden Weakness: Is Mace Windu a Conspiracy Theorist?

"I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi."
"Hmm... To a dark place this line of thought will carry us."

What exactly does Yoda mean by this?
What do we know about the Jedi? They are selfless. They think only about others. Self-preservation is not supposed to be high on their agenda. And yet, when Mace comments to Yoda that the Jedi's ability to use the Force is diminishing in Episode II Yoda replies "Only a Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will."

It is said that the Jedi's ability to see the future was being clouded in the prequels by the dark side. But what is the dark side? Fear. Anger. Even mistrust itself. While a Sith uses these things to their own advantage, the Jedi consider them to be weaknesses. If Luke had not trusted Obi-Wan's voice in his X-Wing, he would not have been able to trust in the Force to blow up the Death Star. If Anakin had not suspected Padme of siding with his enemy, he would not have killed her.

"Do you believe what Dooku said about this Darth Sidious controlling the Senate? It doesn?t feel right."
"Joined the Dark Side Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now."
"Nevertheless, I think we should keep a closer eye on the Senate."

Trust and mistrust is what differentiates the Jedi and the Sith. In order to trust anyone, you must not be arrogant, and you cannot be paranoid. This is the selflessness the Jedi live by, and which makes them bound to servitude of the status quo. Even though Obi-Wan doesn't trust the politicians in the senate, he serves them dutifully. Even though Mace and Yoda are opposed to war, their responsibility is to lead the clones into battle, and they comply.

In the New Testament, submission to authority is prescribed to the faithful in the book of Romans chapter 13:

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

"From my point of view the Jedi are evil."

So was Mace Windu a paranoid conspiracy theorist?
Of course Mace Windu was right to suspect the Chancellor was up to something. When Anakin came to him with good conscience to rat out the Chancellor, Mace had become so distrustful (fearful or paranoid) that he didn't even believe him at first, and did not trust him enough to help him arrest the Chancellor. In contrast, when Luke is being attacked by the Emperor, he trusts that his father will come back to the good side and help him.
Yes, he was a conspiracy theorist, wise in his distrust of the government, but also fearful to the point of his own undoing.

I wanted to create a thread about the real-world application of the Light and Dark sides of the Force. The Force being an allegory for our influence over others in interpersonal relationships. Good authority and bad authority. This inevitably may lead to discussions involving religion and politics, but I think we can leave our personal opinions out of it and keep it civil.

There are many many many more things I have to say about viewing the Star Wars Saga from this lens, but for now, here are some questions:

1. Was it right for Padme to entrust Jar-Jar to her seat in the Senate?

2. If the Jedi had not attempted to arrest Palpatine, would there have been an Order 66?

3. What was the Emperor's downfall? His anger toward Luke, or his trust in Vader's obedience?

Yuck. I feel like I just wrote a homework assignment.

 

The problem with the Jedi was that they were blind to the Sith threat. After Obi-Wan defeats Darth Maul, Mace Windu and Yoda agree that the Sith not only returned, but never went away. What they didn't know was that Senator/Chancellor Palpatine was a Sith Lord himself until it was too late. When Yoda says that Dooku had joined the dark side, he was not only accusing him of lying to Obi-1 about Sidious controlling the Senate, he was also stating the fact that Dooku had become powerful in the dark side of the Force since Yoda saw Dooku's power in the dark side first hand.


Mace was not a conspiracy theorist. He knew that something was wrong. The Jedi as a whole knew something was wrong but they didn't know what. They knew that something wasn't right with Palpatine but they didn't know exactly what.

 

Jar Jar shouldn't be entrusted with sharp objects and hot cups of coffee, much less a Senate seat.

 

Definetly not a bright spot in Padme's career as a Senator.

 

Padme's character judgment leaves a bit to be desired generally.

 

Padme had no business being in government. Neither did Jar Jar.

 

As far as the topic goes, it's not paranoia if someone's REALLY out to get you.

 

Of course there would have still been an order 66 if they hadn't tried to arrest Palpatine. He just would have drummed up some 'evidence' (easy to do since the Senate was eating out of his hand anyway) that they'd been in league with Dooku the entire time, and it would have gone just as smoothly as the plotline that was actually in the film.

 

Mace Windu hit the nail right on the head. The Jedis weakness? They had become complacent, comfortable and arrogant in thier thinking that all was right in the galaxy because they made it so. They were arrogant to the point of ignorance and further perptrated the rise of the empire by refusing to see, acknowledge or address thier short comings. The fear of letting out the fact that thier abilities had diminished was less about true physical attacks, but more about attacks against thier power base and place in society.

Mace knew something was up all along, and the other Jedi were all just like "Nah, man, can't be or we'd know." Hope they enjoyed the result. So, in answer to the original questions, yes palpatine would have found another way. He engineered a galactic war with an army ordered by a Jedi Master. That right there was enough to prove his case for treason and call for the orders downfall.

Jar Jar shouldn't have been left in charge of the Naboo Royal Laundry, never mind have a senate seat/vote.

 

Maybe Yoda had the right idea in not telling the Senate that their first line of defense wasn't operating at peak efficiency but that was the first time the Jedi had actively chosen to lie and keep secrets. Up to then, yeah, they'd goofed up on some things but error is human nature. But lying to the Senate, ostensibly their superiors... well, it doesn't exactly give Yoda much moral high ground later when he rants about Dooku telling lies. Look who's talking, Kermit!

 

Excellent observation!

 

Was it right for Padme to entrust Jar-Jar to her seat in the Senate?


It's funny how so many fans dump a lot of blame on the Republic's downfall upon Jar-Jar's shoulders. Yes, he did propose that Palpatine receive emergency powers to meet the threat of the Separatists. What is amazing is that so many fans refuse to admit that the Senate immediately agreed to his proposal . . . and that they were waiting for someone to do so. And if Jar-Jar had not done it, Palpatine would have found someone else to do it.

But fans do not want to consider this. Because of their irrational dislike of Jar-Jar, they want to fully condemn him for the Republic's downfall. It's amazing how irrational human beings can be.

 

QFT!

 

Yeah...but on the other hand, it took Palpatine and Mas Amedda all of three seconds to twist Jar Jar into voting in emergency powers. Other senators had other loyalties, and could lose political capital for simply suggesting what Jar Jar did. Jar Jar is just an idiotic demographic stand-in. He would never have been in his position had the Gungans not suddenly become friendly with the Naboo. Plus, Amidala was the leader of the Senate's strawman pacifists. Her vote counted more than anyone's, and it was for that reason that her half did a massive performance of follow-the-leader. The Gungan needed a good slap in the face.

 

1. No

2. Palpatine would've continued the War using his influence to further extend his stay as Chancellor. More Jedi would be dying from the War and ultimately when they were small he probably would have set up an assassination attempt.

3. Overconfidence. Palpatine foresaw several outcomes after he and Vader encountered Luke.

1. Luke would kill Vader, thus becoming his new apprentice (what he hoped).
2. Vader would kill Luke, eliminating a threat and continue to have Vader serve him (meh).
3. Luke and Vader would unite to kill the Emperor, thus ruling the Galaxy as father and son and furthering the Sith Legacy (not the best, but the Sith lived on).

What he didn't expect was Vader to aid Luke, and have them destroy him, the remaining Sith and the Empire.

Also yes, the Sith were evil. They attempted to misconstrue their Governments as being a different point of view and peaceful. But their entire teachings are about one's passion and care for THEMSELVES to create power. As Mace Windu said "The oppression of the Sith will never return"

The Sith would instill slavery, and create a totalitarianism regime to which everyone would suffer but them. Well unless they fought each other, which usually happened (ironic from their own teachings) which usually lead to their downfall.

 

I believe it was Mace Windu who said "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without our knowing it." IMO, Mace Windu was the personification of what was wrong with the Jedi. The Order were so thoroughly impressed with themselves that they ignored their failings and overemphasized how brilliant they were. Yoda at least had a sense of perspective.

My other issue with Windu comes from ep III. The Jedi Council asked Anakin to report on Palpatine. When Anakin told them that "The Chancellor has suggested...that I lead the mission," Windu jumped on him. Did Anakin say "Oooh, Send me! Send me! I should totally be the one to go!!!"? Nope, he was reporting on the Chancellor...as they had asked him to do. I think the Jedi must bear some responsibility for Anakin's downfall.

As for the other questions:
1. No. Everybody who had met Jar-Jar knew he was a bumbler. He should have never been given any position of authority. I can't believe there wasn't anyone else who could have done the job, who wouldn't have been so easily manipulated into proposing emergency powers for the Chancellor. I like to think that when Padme found out what Jar-Jar had done, she hurt him.

2. Order 66 was implanted as a command, most likely during the clones' adolescent education programs (as shown in ep II), just in case. Palpatine probably had all kinds of commands implanted just in case--what are Orders 1-65?

3. The Emperor operated on anger most of the time, so his downfall wasn't anger at Luke. IMO, Palpatine couldn't imagine that Vader would ever cross him. He thought he had so completely converted Anakin that nothing could ever bring him back from the Dark Side. So I agree with Dmasterman. His downfall was overconfidence (as well as a deplorable lack of imagination)

 

Agree completely. It was also Windu who said, "It's very dangerous putting them together. I don't think the boy can handle it. I don't trust him." As a senior member of the Jedi Council, Mace presumably had enough clout to quash any suggestions about having Anakin spy on Palpatine, and so one wonders why he would have allowed Anakin's assignment to stand if he didn't think Skywalker would handle it appropriately. Additionally, given Obi-Wan's comment to Anakin about his being "on Anakin's side" with regards to his discomfort about his assignment, I've often wondered exactly what transpired when the plot to spy on Palpatine was hatched. It stands to reason that Obi-Wan spoke out against the idea: he knew Anakin better than any other council member, and likely would have anticipated his friend's unhappiness at being asked to spy on someone he admired. Perhaps the Council should have heeded his warning and found another way to keep tabs on the Supreme Chancellor.

I've often wondered why Dorme wasn't chosen for this task, as she was already being asked to act as Padme's decoy to deflect suspicion that Amidala had left Coruscant. Dorme likely had some experience in politics, and likely would have made better decisions in Padme's place than Jar-Jar did. Her presence in the Senate would also have made her portrayal of Padme that much more convincing, as well.

 

MO, Mace Windu was the personification of what was wrong with the Jedi.


I disagree . . . heartily. Mace Windu was NOT the personification of what was wrong with the Jedi. All of them - Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ki Adi Mundi and even Qui-Gon - personified one way or the other on what was wrong with the Jedi. After all, it was NOT Mace who insisted that the Council not inform the Senate that their connection to the Force was not as strong as before. That was Yoda.



Agree completely. It was also Windu who said, "It's very dangerous putting them together. I don't think the boy can handle it. I don't trust him." As a senior member of the Jedi Council, Mace presumably had enough clout to quash any suggestions about having Anakin spy on Palpatine, and so one wonders why he would have allowed Anakin's assignment to stand if he didn't think Skywalker would handle it appropriately.


Why didn't Yoda do the same? He didn't trust Anakin anymore than Mace did. In fact, only once has he ever expressed any trust in Anakin. Yoda had the clout to squash the plans about Anakin spying on Palpatine. Why didn't HE exercise it? And why aren't you criticizing Obi-Wan for such a stupid plan in the first place? It's so obvious that the plan came from Obi-Wan in the first place, despite his protestations to Anakin.

Oh yes. I keep forgetting. Both Yoda and Obi-Wan HAS to be revered as the perfect Jedi.

 

On second thought (actually, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, etc. thoughts, since different theories are warring here)...

Padme was the Senator from the Chommell sector. Jar Jar was a junior representative, representing the Gungans. She may not have had a choice in delegating her power to Jar Jar. On the other hand, there must (I think) have been a representative from Chommell Minor, a planet in the Chommell sector. Padme could have delegated her power to the junior representative from Chommell Minor (or any representative of the other 34 star systems of the Chommell sector), unless she was somehow required to give it to Jar Jar since they were from the same planet. I don't think Dorme could have done it, as it's likely too many people knew that Padme was going back to Naboo.

Jar Jar was still a bumbler, and he should have been paying attention when Padme was fighting *against* the military creation act. Now, I can't remember the scene exactly (I can't find my copy of AotC), but when Mas Amedda wished that "if only Senator Amidala were here" to propose the Emergency Powers Act, wasn't there anyone else in the room? Why didn't anyone go "Wait, what?"

Why is it obvious the plan came from Obi-Wan in the first place? It seemed to me that while Obi-Wan was not a fan of Palpatine, neither was he a fan of asking Anakin to spy on the Supreme Chancellor. However, he was highly outranked by Mace and possibly other Council members who were in favor of the plan. Yoda, to me, seemed like a "wait and see" kind of guy. Mace Windu advocated very strongly that Palpatine could not be trusted, that the Jedi were BAMFs, and that Anakin was dangerous.

I agree that Yoda could have done more, and probably should have. At least he never advocated open rebellion against duly elected government representatives, or circumvention of the entire court system in order to take justice into his own tiny clawed hands.

 

There is absolutely nothing in Revenge of the Sith that suggests Obi-Wan devised the plan. All of the information provided by the film's dialogue suggests that he was uncomfortable not only with Anakin being given the assignment, but also that he argued against the existence of such an assignment in the first place. Obi-Wan was certainly distrustful of Palpatine, but this was true of the entire Jedi Council by the time ROTS took place. To single him out as the originator of a plan that he clearly was unhappy about makes absolutely no sense.

 

Obi-Wan was the only one who strongly argued for going ahead with the plan. I certainly don't recall Mace or Yoda arguing for such a plan. Even if Obi-Wan was not responsible for the plan, why are certain people claiming that Mace was? Because they don't like the idea of him being a Jedi Master? Is that it? And if neither Obi-Wan or Mace was responsible, who was? If Obi-Wan was really against the plan, he should have listened to his feelings and supported Anakin's opposition to the plan.



I agree that Yoda could have done more, and probably should have. At least he never advocated open rebellion against duly elected government representatives, or circumvention of the entire court system in order to take justice into his own tiny clawed hands.


Yoda supported the idea of the Jedi taking control of the Senate. From "ROTS":


MACE WINDU: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.

Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from office.

MACE WiNDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . .

Kl-ADI-MUNDI: . . . and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.

YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we must take


Ki-Adi Mundi first broached the idea of forcibly removing Palpatine from office. Mace Windu went even further by stating that the Jedi would have to take over the Senate. Yoda stated that this would be a dangerous move for them all to take. Yet . . . he supported the idea by stating that they would need to take care.

 

"Take care" is more of a caution on Yoda's part. Mace is quick to take action and eliminate a threat, while Yoda is more cautious. We see Mace behead Jango and almost do the same to Palpatine. Yoda lets Dooku get away and runs away himself when overcome by the Emperor. Perhaps Mace's aggression has something to do with his strength in the dark side. After all he does create mistrust for Anakin in the Council, the same way Dooku does for the Republic. So while I would agree that Yoda is allowing a takeover of the senate, he knows that it is not the Jedi way to take it by force. It would be a preemptive strike in a way, much like the Jedi purge and Vader's massacre in the Temple.

 

In that scene, Mace Windu and Ki-Adi-Mundi were advocating a takeover of the senate. Yoda was saying "hey, we need to be careful, because seizing power is a Sith thing, not the Jedi way." Like I said, Yoda could have and should have done more, but to me he seemed reticent to advocate overthrowing the government. Windu and Mundi had no problem jumping to that conclusion

 

Why are people STILL making excuses for Yoda? Why do people keep pretending that he has not done anything wrong? He supported the plan to take over the Senate, despite his warning words that it was a dangerous path to take. He was willing to do it. And like Mace before him, he decided to confront Palpatine and kill him . . . without the Senate's consent and knowing full well that the Jedi were not highly regarded at the moment.

Yoda IS NOT perfect. He made mistakes. Why is this so hard to accept? Is it really necessary to maintain the illusion that he was incapable of mistakes?