The Kamino Contradiction

Did anybody notice that when Obi-Wan was talking to Lama-Su, the conversation didn't feel right? That's because, not only is it badly written, it's also one big contradiction.

First of all, Lama-Su says it's "ONE OF" the finest armies they ever created...which means there are potentially other similarly or even, God forbid, more powerful armies floating around the SW galaxy looking for a fight??

Anyways that's the small point, the main point is when Lama-Su mentions the army, Obi-Wan asks with surprise "The army?" Lama-Su obviously realises that Obi-Wan doesn't know about it because he starts explainig to him what the army is. After that he says, "You must be anxious to inspect the units for yourself." to which Obi-Wan replies "That's why I'm here." Ok, if Lama-Su knew that Obi-Wan doesn't know about the army, why would he ask him to inspect it? Also, how could Obi-Wan say that he's there to inspect the army if they both know that he just found out about it?
Curious.

 

I just took it as the PM thinking "What a strange man..."

 

I don't think the Kaminoains particularly care about any details like whether Obi knows about the army or why he seems so clueless. They were paid handsomely to create an army for the Jedi. After waiting 10 long years for a Jedi to visit them and check up on their work, finally one shows up. Naturally they assume he must be there about the army. While he seems to not know about the army for a moment, he then acts as thought he does know. From the Kaminoains POV it would have seemed far more outlandish to them that a Jedi came to visit them for any reason other than to see the army.

 

Good question.well, I'm sure lots of pirates and planets and such want their own armies. Perhaps Lama Su didn't mean that when saying "one of the finest we've ever created", that it was one of the biggest, but one of the best trained or best equipped.

On the second part, perhaps Lama Su simply dismissed it as nothing.

 

Yes I totally agree with you. I felt like Lucas was just peeing his pants waiting to introduce us to Kamino, so he just made sure Obiwan got there and then didn't really care about the storyline thereafter, or "The Kamino Contradiction" as you acurately labeled it. A much more appropriate introduction to the planet would have been something more like:

Taun We approaches a glass door on Tipoca city, to be greeted by a wayward rainswept Jedi, and when it slides open says: "May I HELP you?"

Obiwan: "I'm tracking down a bounty hunter."

Taun: "There is one bounty here that I am aware of-the Kaminoans don't like him."

No but anyway you get my point: Jango should have been the reason expressed to the Kaminoans that Obiwan came there, although it would not have to be revealed that Obiwan was looking for him because of something bad. And once inside Tipoca city, Lama Su would show the Clone Army to Obiwan, because he would assume that the Jedi already know of its existence.

 

Yes, that could work too. And it may have happened that way had Taun We not said that Obi-Wan was expected.

 

You know, it's possible that whoever placed the order for the clone army told Lama Su that when the Jedi come to fetch it, they might act surprised(since that person knew that the Jedi wouldn't know anything about the army).

 

Eh, I don't know. The rest of the Order weren't supposed to know of the army.

 

They were supposed to find it.

 

I think the whole Kamino conversation needs an overhaul.

Firstly, I like the idea of "We were expecting you", because it gives you that feeling of mystery. I liked that feeling

The crisis happened with Lama-Su, his dialogue was very poorly written. First of all, Obi-Wan bows to him TWICE for some reason. Secondly, as soon as they're introduced Lama-Su says, "And now to business", as if they've been chatting for hours. Anyways these are ignorable mistakes. What I can't ignore is the huge headache I had after listening to the rest of the conversation. If it was up to me I would make Obi-Wan a bit more witty throughout the converstation, make him look like he understands. GL wouldn't like this cuz the little kids won't get what's going on (as if they do now), so to make this simple you could cut the whole conversation and make Lama-Su tell Obi-Wan something like "Now I want to show you something that I'm sure you will find quite impressive." and have him lead him to the cloning chamber or whatever, where he could proceed to tell him about the army and all the details regarding it. Also, I would leave the converstion about Jango for some other time, for example have Obi-Wan meet a weapons specialist to inspect the clones' weapons, and ask him about darts, etc. while he's at it.

But that's if we were living in a perfect world. Oh well a guy can always dream. By the way, how does Palpatine justify the sudden creation of the clone army to the rest of the Republic? Seems a little strange to me...

 

Yeah, Palps line should have been

"I will ENLIST a grand army of the Republic to counter the increasing threats of the Separatists"

It could then be assumed that the Jedi had discussed the existence of the army on Kamino with him some time prior to that Senate session, and since he knew of the armies of the Separatists, it would make it like look he was acting in the interest of democracy.

 

Im so very glad George Lucas is the writer of these films and not some of the users in this forum...

 

Well, I think we all could agree with that.

 

As do I; this conversation is almost the same as the Obi-Dooku conversation on Geonosis:


Obiwan: "I'm tracking down a bounty hunter."

Taun: "There is one bounty here that I am aware of-the Kaminoans don't like him."


Give GL some credit, he knows what he's doing; better than any of us do about his own saga.

 

Qu Klaani wrote:

"Im so very glad George Lucas is the writer of these films and not some of the users in this forum..."

Hey, good point, dude! The guy in this thread points out an indisputable flaw of this crappy movie and your ingenius retort is to....suck up to George Lucas.

Brilliant!

And also, when you make fun of guys who spend time on message boards....dude, YOU'RE ONE OF THEM!!!

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence guys. Just because you can't be open minded enough to accept other people's points of view does not mean that we should stop sharing them.

I for one would have been greatly relieved if someone other than the person who wrote the script and the dialogue was hired to do it, because this, along with tons of other examples in AOTC shows a SERIES of contradictions, inconsistencies, and total mood-killers. I could give you a list of them right now, but what's the point, as I said before it's not a perfect world

 

And also, when you make fun of guys who spend time on message boards....dude, YOU'RE ONE OF THEM!!!

Well, duh.

I think the reference was going for people on boards here that have nothing better to do than make up warped crappy quotes.

 

I'll put the dialogue down for you guys and put a few comments in it(BTW, forget my previous post(changed my mind)):

- May I present Lama Su, Prime Minister of Kamino. And this is Master Jedi...

- Obi-Wan Kenobi.

- I trust you will enjoy your stay. Please.
And now to business.
For some reason, I find this way of thinking exotic. I like the fact that Lama Su talks as though they've chatted for a long time.
You will be delighted to hear that we are on schedule. Two hundred thousand units are ready, with a million more well on the way.

- That's... good news.

- Please tell your master Sifo-Dyas that his order will be met on time.

- I'm sorry, S...?

- Hrm, Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas is still a leading member of the Jedi Council, is he not?
It's been a long time, after all

- Master Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago.

- Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. But I'm sure he would have been proud of the army we've built for him.

- The army?

- Yes. A clone army.
Here I get the feeling that Lama Su thinks Obi-Wan was thinking about something else and says this to remind him.
And I must say, one of the finest we've ever created.

- Tell me, Prime Minister; When my master first contacted you about the army, di-did he say who it was for?

- Of course he did. This army is for the Republic.
Nothing suspicious here. Lama Su simply thinks that Obi-Wan wonders if he knows this.
But you must be anxious to inspect the clones for yourself.

- That's... why I'm here!

I think it's a very good piece of dialogue. Much information is revealed in a short time and in a way that's easy to understand. Also, Obi-Wan comes off as witty, which is always good.

 

Hey Smuggler at least some users of this forum still have an imagination left. Lucas hasn't drained it from them fully. I think you're just jealous that you can't open your mind to new possiblities.

Heck even Lucas can do that with what he's done with the OT. Unfortunately his new possibilities aren't exactly encouraging :S

As for what Lars_Muul wrote, I have to disagree about the point that Lama-Su thought Obi-Wan's mind just wandered when he said "the army?" There is no doubt that Lama knew that Obi-Wan didn't have a clue. It's so obvious from his response. If this was removed, it might actually help (not save) the conversation.

 

I think you're just jealous that you can't open your mind to new possiblities.

I think he can see that Lucas is a way better writer than most of us. I wouldn't challenge him and I wouldn't encourage you to do it either.

 

Hey Smuggler at least some users of this forum still have an imagination left. Lucas hasn't drained it from them fully. I think you're just jealous that you can't open your mind to new possiblities.

Jealous that I can't open my mind to new possibilities? That made no sense whatsoever. What is this, the third grade? I'm just saying I'm happy with what Lucas has done. I'm not saying everything posted is a total screwjob, but frankly, none of the stuff posted is a "new possibility".

 

Lars_Muul wrote: "I think he can see that Lucas is a way better writer than most of us."

He may be a good writer, but everyone makes mistakes, and the ones in the AOTC script are extremely numerous. They even mentioned one on StarWars.com! "How was Obi-Wan going to deliver Jango to Coruscant for interrogation?" then they gave you four options, one of them being "stuff him in the spare parts compartment"!

So if Lucas honestly admits to (some of) his mistakes, I don't see why you keep defending him. He made mistakes and we're talking about alternatives to fix them. What's so bad about that?

As for Smuggler: "I think the reference was going for people on boards here that have nothing better to do than make up warped crappy quotes."
followed by: "I'm not saying everything posted is a total screwjob."
ok...good one Smuggler. We're talking about contradictions and it turns out we have a walking one in our midst.

 

Let's keep the discussion civil and mature, shall we?
The thing with "How was Obi-Wan going to deliver Jango" was never adressed by Lucas. It was just Burtt who was half joking about it. The script says that Obi-Wan would contact his masters once he'd captured Jango. It's quite possible that they would send a ship to have him picked up. Anything is possible. Since he didn't capture him, we don't really need to know the answer.

 

There is no doubt that Lama knew that Obi-Wan didn't have a clue. It's so obvious from his response.

Is it? Not to me. Since he makes no fuzz about it, I think it's obvious that Lama Su misunderstands Obi-Wan's reaction. Fortunate for Obi-Wan.
Also, it would not be wise to remove it, because we need to know that they're talking about a clone army.

 

You're right that was a bit immature, I changed my post to make it a bit more civil.

As for mentioning the clone army, yes it does have to be mentioned, but I'm sure they could have found another way to integrate it into the conversation. I mean these are professional writers, there's no limit to what they can think of.