Kylo Ren recovered the Mask of His Grandfather and in a scene indicates it speaks, “show me again the power of the dark side.” When then see it again on Kylo’s flagship, despite Palpatine saying “I have been wvery voice in your head,” one of tones being Vader’s. Bit is that true? Palpatine often says hyperbolic statements, I mean “I an All The Sith!,” “I am The Senate!,” to name a few. Was it really Palpatine communing with Kylo via Vader’s mask or was that a lie? And if so who was speaking to Ben Solo? Was it a Sith spirit or a memory? I mean when Rey touched Anakin’s saber we see Bespin and hear Vader’s voice.
That's the clear implecation in TROS i.e. that it's Palpatine pretending to be the voice of his grandfather. From some of the concept for TFA (was it TFA?), I seem to remember a ghostly apparition of Anakin/Vader blended. Not sure if that was only ever an idea of the concept artists, or whether there was a plan to have Anakin/Vader appear to Kylo from beyond.
I just have trouble trusting Palpatine, he goed from “Lill the girl,” to “I’ve been expecting you granddaughter,” to “take my place,” to “the true emperor is me!” What I wonder is if the memories of Vader were attached like those attached to the Legacy Saber and the Sith Knife. It would explain then that Vader Mask acts like a Sith holocron of sorts, containing perhaps knowledge Vader had.
The simpler explanation is that JJ didn't care about it, it looked cool in TFA, so they did it. Then he had to come back for TROS and explain what happened. Where did Kylo even get the helmet? Did Luke tell him "yeah, I burned everything on Endor and buried it. Here's a map."
Because its melted looking, we are suppose to deduce its Vader’s melted helm on Endor. However, I am inclined to believe Vader had multiple masks, I mean he cannot survive without it, so just having one mask with a respirator is not prudent. What is interesting is even when Palpatine claims to be the voice of Vader in Kylo’s head, he still goes back to the Mask of his grandfather and meditates afterward. Indicating to me, he still gleaned something from Vader.
I think Kylo's communing with Vader's helmet is a HUGE missed opportunity in TLJ. In TLJ flashbacks, Luke finds out that Ben Solo's "heart had turned" by reading the mind of a sleeping Ben Solo. Instead of that, what if Luke would have entered the hut to find Ben Solo communing/meditating with the Vader helmet? Maybe Ben's eyes would be all sithy? IMO, this would have warranted a visceral and knee jerk reaction from Luke that would've (perhaps) justified Luke igniting his lightsaber.
I agree. That would be better scene. I mean why would Luke step into the Jedi Bunk Beehive and start reading his nephew’s mind? Kinda creepy Uncle.. but if he saw Ben with the mask of Vader, then you have a good reason for that conflict as you said. I must say I love Kylo’s obession with his grandfather. That Snoke even says “I saw in you what all masters want to see, raw and untamed power, a New Vader!” Some may decry its a rip off to have Kylo live in the shadow of Vader, but actually it makes him unique, he is trying to live up to the iconic Sith Lord. It helps define him, he desperately seeks to be worthy of the mask and mantel.
What is interesting is Kylo is more confident and powerful in the mask hewn to look like Vader’s. Everyone keeps telling him to take it off, but when he does he’s fragile. With it on, he is stronger, which makes me wonder if there is a link between Vader’s mask and his own? Perhaps Kylo’s is forged from one of Vader’s masks?
There's no real logic in anyone evil wanting to be Vader, and certainly believing they can commune with him, unless they are not cognisant of his redemption and the fact that he destroyed the Sith. The idea that Ben Solo wouldn't know his family history is a bit preposterous... and of course is never brought up in the films to explain why he wouldn't.
Ben’s knows the history. He’s literally scared that what happened to Vader (goes back to being good cuz of his family! Is going to happen to him. Which is why he’s set on killing them all. He should know better. It doesn’t make any damn sense. And only shows how Ben Solo is one of the bigger morons of the franchise. Hell, even after reveal all of this to him (with proof) Ben is like “errrr okay! I will serve you now so I can play with 10,000 star destroyers.”
There is no Vader. Vader was Anakin all along. Anakin is now a force ghost. Ben knows this. There is no Vader inside the helmet, speaking from the beyond, as if Vader's personality imprinted on the helmet itself. Once Palps reveals to Ben that it was he who was speaking to him all this time, (and is also the voice of Snoke) a big huge light bulb should have gone off inside Ben's head telling him he's the biggest doofus in the galaxy for believing any of this crap. Instead, he's like "what is thy bidding, my Master".
As I've posted elsewhere, I'd have loved to see Ani's ghost show up and tell K/B that Vader was just a fiction created by a weak man to hide behind so he wouldn't have to deal with his guilt. And that in following the Vader pathway, K/B was in hyperdrive headed for a cliff. Of course, K/B wouldn't have listened.
That would have been introspective. A nice lesson learned too late for Anakin, but is able to pass on some wisdom to someone who needs it before it's too late for them. But hey. 10,000 star destroyers on ice so whippppeeeeeeeee.
Because that's what we do here. Care. With a few alterations you could have taken the Fredo of the family, and given him a better ending that used other family members who have gone to the dark side and returned, in real ways that aren't just imaginary and self-indulgent.
At least Palpatine speaking as Vader made sense. Don’t know why Kylo didn’t get angry knowing this - then again he isn’t truly serving Palpatine, he wants Rey to join him in killing him and taking over.
By this point in the series, I'd long given up really regarding the idea that this character have something going on.
If we take the novelizations into account, then Palpatine was speaking metaphorically about being a voice in his head when imitating Vader; I don't remember if it was Rae Carson's novelization or the junior novelization, but one of those (or hell, maybe both) establishes that Kylo never heard anything from his meditation sessions with the helmet at all. It was just Vader idolatry and rejection of his grandfather's redemption
Hmmm.. TFA doesn’t indicate he hears nothing: If anything this indicates he has bond with his dead grandfather and even indicates a Venom like ‘we.’
Possibly. I could buy that he really is just desperately trying to talk to a spirit who's not there (and even if he was, isn't evil), I suppose Frankly, I prefer to headcanon that he was hearing a voice, and that he was duped into thinking Vader's spirit returned to evil, since the movies alone do leave room for that interpretation. Gotta appreciate death of the author!
I was under the impression Snoke told Kylo that Vader’s redemption was a lie, and since only Luke was the only living witness and cannot be trusted.
I don't know whats so hard to understand here. Either: A: Kylo is a psychopath and is hearing voices that aren't really there. Which is very likely and reasonable assumption given his actions in the movie. B: Kylo is actually hearing Palpatine (or Snoke) speak as Vader, but is still a psychopath because he's selfish narcissistic a-hole who goes around murdering innocent people and cares nothing about anyone else besides himself, and has a extremely warped view of reality. TROS explains that Palpatine was speaking to Kylo using voices that he was familiar with; Vader, Snoke, etc. Vader was not really in the helmet. Kylo should have known this. In fact, he did. But he believed it anyway, showing us that Kylo is a total moron. He should have known something strange was going on here, and not as it seems. But Ben wanted to believe it because the voices told him what he already believed, or wanted to believe. And he never once told his family about it, or asked for their help, because even way back then he didn't trust them, or like them, or wanted their help. Vader never once spoke to Kylo. Anakin never once spoke to Kylo. Kylo's grandfather never once spoke to him,
