I was hoping to facilitate some discussion and clear up some confusion on the plan in AOTC. Specifically, was the plan to kill Padmé using several middlemen well thought out and what exactly was part of the plan? For example, did Jango purposefully leave behind the Kaminoan toxic dart to lure Obi-Wan to the cloning facility? I didn't want to take sides on the issue, but rather see what others thought as the assassination aspect of the story is one of the most commonly brought up criticisms of AOTC I've seen.
I feel like the actual plan was to kill Padmé via blowing up her ship with her on it to prevent her from blocking the military creation act. That’s it. Everything that occurred afterwards was an unintended side effect of that plan failing.
I believe a lot of the behind-the-scenes intrigue is better explained in the novelization, unfortunately I haven't read it in over a decade and I don't remember the details, I just vaguely remember things being explained in a little more detail. And yeah the whole movie is basically Palpatine manipulating everyone else in the movie in ways that are too subtle for any of them to notice. That's the beauty of the movie.
For the Jedi to trace the assassin Zam Wassell to Jango Fett and the clone manufacturing plant and the Clone Army on Kamino. I don't think Palpatine believed that Zam would have succeeded in killing Padme, especially with the Jedi guarding her. But the price for acquiring an alliance with the Trade Federation was finding an assassin to kill Padme. And the Trade Federation wanted revenge for the events of "The Phantom Menace". Which is probably one of the reasons why Palpatine had insisted that the Jedi guard her in the first place.
First things first: the plan, as explicitly stated in the movie, is to start a war: For this plan to work, the Jedi need to discover the clone army on Kamino. In the movie there are two clues leading to Kamino: the toxic dart, and the fact that the planet's been erased from the Jedi archives. for example, did Jango purposefully leave behind the Kaminoan toxic dart to lure Obi-Wan to the cloning facility? I think so. It also seems a bit too opaque a clue--Obi-Wan could only figure that one out by the sheer coincidence that he happened to have a friend who was familiar with those darts--so I find it likely that Dooku was dispatching Jango on a number of missions throughout the galaxy under the assumption that at some point, some clue or another would have led an investigating Jedi to Kamino anyway. But, yeah, Palpatine suggests the Jedi watch over Padme, as a first step to put them on the trail. Jango instructs Zam to use poisonous creatures to kill Padme, which presumably the Jedi can sense (and would've sensed earlier if they weren't so busy squabbling), and everything follows from there.
I think like in TPM Palpatine wins whether Padme is killed or not. Good point on the detail in assigning the Jedi to her. Makes sense he was increasing chances they would find Kamino. Is there anything in the novel (anybody?) that also hints Palpatine foresaw Anakin's attachments and capitalised on it by putting Anakin and Kenobi with Padme? The film gives me strong vibes of that, and Obi-Wan suspected Anakin's feelings for her even without Palpatine's infamous foresight. I think Sidious had precognition that the Jedi would find the army by some means even if he didn't know specifically.
Well I don't think there was any plan to lead the Jedi anywhere and if there was, it makes no sense. 1) Most importantly, there is NO need to lead the Jedi anywhere, least of all to Kamino. The Kamino people are making an army for the Republic. Once it is ready they WILL contact the senate and tell them "Your army is ready, where do you want it?" Then Palpatine can then inform the senate, the army bill having passed with no Padme to obstruct things, "Strange, I have been informed that a clone army was ordered by a Jedi master ten years ago and it is now ready." "While this army might be quite useful given the current situation, I will still have to talk with the Jedi and them going behind the senate's back." This does two things, first the army is now known and also a seed of doubt has been planted in the senate about the Jedi. The Jedi will not know about the dates, that Sifo-Dyas was apparently killed before the army was ordered, thus showing he didn't do it. So they can only say "We had no idea about this." Dooku meanwhile has put his seps army together and Nute is onboard since Padme is now dead. He can use the army bill as an excuse and make a big threat, "The senate is building an army to keep us in the Republic by force, we will not accept this! We have been forced to make an army of our own and we will use it to ensure our freedom!" And events play out as in the film, the senate panics with the news of Doouk's droid army, gives Palpatine emergency powers to Palpatine and the war starts. Much simpler and has far less ways to go wrong. As opposed to the "plan" to lead the Jedi to Kamino and all that. 2) Consider, this plan requires; That the first attempt fails. That the Jedi track down and capture Zam. That Jango will have a chance to shoot her with the dart and get away. That Obi-Wan knew a guy that could ID said dart. That Obi-Wan would go to him and that this guy would be there. That Obi-Wan would not blurt out something odd to the Kamino people, like "What clone army, the senate never agreed to this." That Jango did not kill Obi-Wan or that Obi-Wan captured him. If Jango is caught and talks, that could be bad for Palpatine. And so on. So the plan is not needed and is stupidly convoluted and has a considerable risk of backfiring. So no, I don't think a clever man like Palpatine would engage in these types of plots. Instead I credit him this, that he thinks on his feet. Like in TPM, he did not plan for Padme to escape and get to Coruscant but he adapted his plans and made use of her. Same here, the plan was for Padme to die as that would a) remove an obstacle to the army bill and b) get Nute onboard with the seps. So he kills two birds with one stone. When the first attempt fails, he adapts, he suggest two Jedi. It is possible that he anticipated that the Jedi would make this offer but he gets ahead of them and suggest Obi-Wan. He might indeed know about how Anakin feels about Padme. If she is killed by the second attempt, this would a) make the Jedi look bad in the eyes of the public and b) it would give Palpatine something to use with Anakin, his fear of loss. Loosing Padme would be something Palpatine can exploit with Anakin. When the second attempt fails, he adapts again and orders Padme off-planet. That would at least remove her as an obstacle to the army bill. She is with Anakin and again that can serve his purposes. I doubt he figured that Obi-Wan would get anywhere, there was a false trail to Naboo miners. All info about Kamino had been removed so clearly the sith did not want the Jedi to go there and look around. Once Obi-Wan sends his message and news of the clone army has reached the senate. Now Palpatine has to act quickly, he manipulates Jar Jar and gets the senate to give him extra powers and now the war can start. So he got what he wanted but not the way he had planned. The big risk with this plan is Dooku, if he is killed or captured on Geonosis, this could unravel everything. The seps is now leaderless and the war might be over before it starts. In closing, the obvious question is, why did Jango use the dart? If he planned to lead the Jedi to Kamino then he is putting himself at risk. If several Jedi show up, he might get captured and I doubt he wants that. If he had already left Kamino then yes but he still had his son there. If Jango was ordered to use the dart then he would question why. A blaster bolt will do the job so why use a very specific weapon when it isn't necessary? If he was assured that the dart could not be traced, the question is still there, why? And once the Jedi show up, Jango could figure that he was set up. He was told the dart could not be traced but it was. So the sith betrayed him. What do I think, he used it because it was handy. It might be more accurate at long range and he had to act quickly. If Jango had been ordered to kill Zam with the dart, then why didn't he shoot her when the droid was coming back with Obi-Wan? That way there was no risk that Zam gets away. Bye for now. Blackboard Monitor
That’s a very difficult question actually. On the one hand you could easily argue that the actions of leaving the dart and the Jedi finding that Kamino was erased from the archives is a part of the plan On the other hand we know Palpatine had to think quickly on his feet during TPM so the actions in AOTC may very well just be excellent reactionary thinking. The one thing that I don’t think has been mentioned in the comments above would be this: - Although a lot of time has passed between TPM and AOTC, wouldn’t Palpatine be aware that Padme often uses disguises and decoys in times when she is under threat ? Therefore bombing the main ship was just a bit of a chance rather than a properly formal and well thought out plan like we know Palpatine excels at ?
it was all a plan to get Padme and Anakin together. I also think the Council put Padme and Anakin together to test Anakin. Anakin doesn't exactly keep his feelings for Padme secret.
I agree with @Samuel Vimes. I know Lucas has said that there was a plan, but I think its not needed by the film and Palpatine could have revealed the army at any point using "Republic intelligence" or something.
I am totally defeated after reading this. This is no reflection of the movie. Not by a long shot. No one will ever like this movie, let alone the Prequel Trilogy. Why does it matter to me? It really shouldn't. I know what I like. I should stick to it, regardless of how others might think. I don't think that would have happened. Not without an immediate threat. And an immediate threat had manifested when Obi-Wan was captured by the Separatists.
That's a problem. Solution: put it on your ignore list. Problem solved. Of course that wouldn't have happened. To make a real-life analogy, you try telling the UN General Assembly (how???) that "their army is ready" and see what happens.
Or people have reflected on the movie and come to other conclusions than you did. Perhaps they saw things differently. People can have varying opinions about things. Why not? The Kamino people have been making an army that is for the Republic that was ordered by the senate. At least that is what they think, the Senate wants this army. And once it is ready, do you really think they would just let 1,2 million clone troopers just sit there, twiddling their thumbs while they wait for weeks, months or even years for the senate to send a person to pick them up? No they would not. If no one shows up they would contact the senate and tell them that their army is ready. Word of this would reach Palpatine and he can then inform the whole senate about this. He has built in deniability, the Kamino people contacted him, not the other way around. And the army was ordered by a Jedi, at least that is the surface story. So the senate is told about the army. As for the threat, that is easy as Palpatine runs both sides of this conflict. So once the army is known he could just tell Dooku to make a public threat. And so Dooku unveils his new droid army and makes threats and hostile demands or he simply attacks some Republic worlds. The senate reacts as they did in the film, gives Palpatine emergency powers and he oks the clone army and the war starts. This is not difficult. Also, is you argument that the "plan" included Obi-Wan tracking Jango to Geonosis, overhearing Dooku's plans and sending a message? If so that makes even less sense. Jango tried very hard to kill Obi-Wan on Kamino and then later outside Geonosis. Had he succeeded then the plan fails. So did Palpatine know that Obi-Wan would survive this and on the whole planet of Geonosis, he would just stumble upon Dooku as he makes his plans known? Again why not? As I said above, the Kamino people think they are acting on orders from the senate. Once the army is ready, why would they not contact the senate if no one comes and claims it? As for the UN, if some company gets an order to make something, lots of this something. And as far as they know, this order comes from the UN and approved by the General Assembly. So they spend a few years making these things. Once they are ready and have these ready for pick up but no one from the UN shows up. What reason would they have for not contacting the UN about this? Also the UN is not some shadowy organisation with no known adress or means to contact. Sending a message to the UN is hardly difficult. Same with the Galactic Senate. Contacting them would not be hard. In closing, consider this. Palpatine and Dooku set the clone army in motion about ten years ago. Did they already have this "plan" to try and kill Padme, Jango, Zam, dart and all that in place ten years ago as well? If not, how did they plan to let the senate know about the army? Again the simplest way is for the Kamino people to contact the senate once the army is ready. Bye for now. Blackboard Monitor
This is a very interesting topic that I always love discussing I definitely don’t think that Obi-Wan tracking down the dart and finding Kamino was part of the plan. There’s too much risk there and that’s the whole point of deleting Kamino from the archives. The Kaminoans definitely aren’t in on the plot and they share some potentially dangerous truths because of it. I think the bounty hunters were meant to succeed in their attacks on Padmé and when they don’t sending her offworld is Plan B for Palpatine. If she dies under Anakin’s protection that definitely plays into Palpatine’s plans as far as driving Anakin to the dark side given his attachment to her. Again, Palpatine’s good at thinking on his feet. I’ll try to be more specific in my thoughts on this topic in future posts when I’m more awake.
Would they? I think that's an assumption. There's no war yet. Nothing to fight. The war begins after Padme's attempted assassination and Obi's capture. Maybe they could. But I think that story wouldn't be as interesting to tell. I also think it may put the jedi in less of a position to use it, which I think would put them in a position where they're less trusting of the clones and the senate. I think that makes it harder for the effectiveness of order 66. The jedi use the army after Obi is captured. I think there's no specific date given in the movie itself. Obi says he was under the impression he died before that, but, as far as I remember, the timeline suggested by Obi and the Kaminoans don't necessarily contradict eachother. Obi tells the kaminoans he was killed almost ten years ago and tells them that the kaminoans say he placed the order almost ten years ago. I think there's not much less ways to go wrong the other way. Does it require all that? Palpatine knowing about Padme's decoys and such, I don't think is so hard to assume. Whose to say the jedi would have to and Jango couldn't have killed her if the jedi hadn't caught up to her? If he's caught, I think Jango could still lead them to kamino. I don't see many scenarios where he wouldn't be able to shoot her. I think we don't know how hard it'd be for it to be discovered by someone who knows these things. I don't think Obi saying that would change much. Would killing Obi be bad for Palpatine? I don't know if it would. It could get the jedi more attached to the situation. I don't know if Jango would have any real information that would hurt Palpatine. As far as the movie shows, if I remember correctly, Palpatine didn't personally involve himself in the situation, and Dooku, AKA Tyrannus, hired him. Maybe. Why would he question that, if he was getting paid and/or under threat of death, presuming he'd think they'd kill him if he disobeyed their orders? I mean, I think the real answer may be is to have a chase scene. But also, maybe Jango would've killed her after doing the job, had Obi not leapt through the window and grabbed that droid like a madman.
The plot of AOTC was a little convoluted. When you need a character (Dooku or Palpatine) to explain the plot that is a telltale sign. I still like the film for the record.
Ah, but there's a gap of knowledge between those two points: the identity of the planet associated with the toxic dart. To know Kamino has been erased from the Jedi archives, the Jedi Obi Wan Kenobi needs to know about Kamino and its connection to the dart. The movie shows how he makes that connection. Which leads to one conclusion: Dexxster Jetster is on the take.
I think Palpatine has a really good idea what the future will bring. For a character with so many deadly and powerful abilities his foresight is what makes him the most formidable. He doesn't need to see point by point exactly what happens. Palpatine sees the large arc of the future. He sees the current of time and the different possibilities that can result. I think some people take issue with Palpatine being able to micro orchestrate huge events down to a specific unimportant moment. I see that as how he's so succesful at it. Palpatine doesn't directly manipulate the big things. His focus is on the smallest turn of events. Insignificant actions in the moment which later divert all of history to create huge momentous events in the favor of the Sith. He's pulling the strings before anyone is looking amd exerting the smaller effort for maximum effect. Palpatine's big moment is ordering the Clone Army. That 's a rare instance of him directly sticking his neck out to cause something momentous. Most of the time his style would be much more like Zam Wessel missing Padme on the landing platform. From there events play out the way Palaptine wants without him need to do anything. Agreed. The bugs sent to kill Padme were used specifically so the Jedi would sense them. They were probably hungry. Starved even. While Obi-Wan and Anakin's squabbling might have distracted them for a moment, I think the bugs gave off a stronger ripple in the Force the moment they recognized Padme was something they could eat. The Jedi felt their hunter instinct kick in. It's similar to Rogue One when Chirrut senses Cassian Andor is about to kill.
Yet, he had failed to see the big picture, when he tried to push a relationship between Anakin and Padme in "Attack of the Clones", when he suggested that Obi-Wan protect her from potential assassins. He doesn't see everything. And certainly not all of the time.
I think Palpatine saw a future where Anakin and Padme being together could be manipulated for the benefit of the Sith. All Palpatine needed to do was reintroduce them and the rest would take care of itself. It's Palpatine seeing the big picture of what can be the future can be that allows him to take very small actions that later have huge consequences. Palpatine knew casually asking for Obi-Wan to protect Padme would bring Anakin and Padme together.
I think Palpatine's plan was basically to keep everyone off-balance, so they couldn't see what was really going on until it was too late. Through cut-outs, he sets up the assassination attempts on Padme so the Jedi won't notice what else he's up to. He also does this to keep his TF allies happy, so they won't notice how he's actually playing both sides. He sets up Ani and Kenobi to protect Padme, knowing they'll disagree over what to do. (We may safely assume Ani has told his friend Palpatine about his feelings towards Padme and his conflict with Kenobi.) He leaves clues that lead to Kamino, so that the Jedi will know about the clone army. And, when "proof" of an imminent Separatist attack is found, the Jedi & Republic will quickly turn to the clones for help, and not stop to ask just how or why they were created. And the war is started so that nobody will notice that Palpatine has just won another round in his effort to seize total power.
I don’t think that Zam or Jango were trying any less than their best to kill Padmé, which makes it unlikely but not impossible that Palpatine was counting on them to fail. In fact I think he genuinely would have benefitted from the assassination being successful. But in typical Palpatine fashion, he has contingency plans so that if plan A is thwarted he doesn’t lose he just progresses along a different path. He definitely set up Anakin and Padmé together after the first attempt failed, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it was his plan all along and he wanted the attack to fail. Like I said before I don’t think the Jedi tracing Jango to Kamino was part of the plan either. It seems too unnecessarily risking and convoluted for Palpatine’s style. Instead Palpatine has so many plots running at once that even when a string or two comes loose he is able to tighten his net with the rest of them before anyone really grasps the truth of the situation to be able to do anything about it.
Palpatine knew it would fail but he also knew this meant Padmé would be removed from the vote (which she is angry about) and Jar Jar would replace her and believe he could easily manipulate him. Of course he knew. Are you telling me after all this time, he didn't know about the handmaiden trick of hers? Of course he knew. He needed Obi Wan to find the clone army so it would not be his idea so Jango killed him deliberately with the dart so he would find it. He is the master manipulator.
