The Problem With Mara

As I'm sure anyone who has been on these boards long enough to realize TmE has run out of ideas it is quite plain to see that Mara is one of the most widely hated and debated EU characters if not the most.

Mara was originally a Zahn character as are so many others that we know and love. What happened to Mara? Was she always this hated?

The question I am posing is this

Is it Zahn's character of Mara that everyone hates or did other authors mischaracterize her to the point where the Mara we have now is nothing more that a caricature of Zahn's originally Emperor's Hand?

For some reason I didn't think Mara was really that bad until the NJO when she was stereotyped into some Luke-whipping control freak.

Discuss

-The Rebel Gungan

 

All characters are only as good as the portrayal that sticks out the most.

In Mara's case, many loathe her because they preferred Callista or she lectured Luke or she was bad in NJO.

However, few think of Luke as the weak willed jedi master of most of the NJO...

so its a trade off

 

She was one of my favorite characters til NJO, especially the Dark Tide duology.

 

I never really saw her as such a Luke-whipper in the NJO. In fact, I felt it was more the other way around, with her being in accord with L:uke's view most of the time. But that may be because I haven't read the NJo in some times and I wasn,t looking for it. Also, many people lament that the Solo kids like her more than their parents, forgetting that theyr are frickin' adolescents. Adolescents don't like their parents. Or so the stereotypes would have us believe. It's more complicated than that. I think Jaina explained it pretty well in Dark Tides. And I'm rambling

In conclusion, I liked Mara in the Thrawn trilogy and Hand of Thrawn (I hate all those abbreviations, I can't understand half the converstaions here!), but didn't really care for her in the NJO. She just wasn't that interesting (or even IMPORTANT).

 

She was ok, no matter who was writing her, right up until HoT. Then we got her telling Luke that what he thought he knew, what he and many others had infact seen with their own eyes, had never happened because she was the only one who would know.

 

She got a lot of screen time, and did a lot of things, and since there's so much for so many SW fans to quibble over, she was bound to offend someone sooner or latter.

And she didn't have the bonus of being a movie character, either.

 

Too bad Tiershon_Fett isn't here. Then we could have a real Mara thread.

 

There is no problem with Mara, if you get down to the carbon level. She's ficitious; she's not technically real; and at the end of a Hutt's hookah, one measely character does more to promote an author worldwide than all of Mars Attacks' duck-quacking aliens.

I don't care if she never ages, or if she's a Sunrider descendant, only the sixth in 4000yrs. People write women nice and beautiful---except for George Martin, whose cast is usually covered in pimples and welts of all sizes---and the sooner people realise that, the sooner we can delve into the underlyning Grievious issue. It's a human's natural tendency to make women attractive in books and comics and games, a blindspot. Especially a man.

That's why I want a good fat woman, something different to read or see. Indigo haired, something exotic looking, like Khaleen Hentz, and if you offer another Corellian I'll take Bubo out of his spider brain jar and make him Wortt you!

 

Luke Skywalker: I have a BAD feeling about this



I think the problem a lot of people have with Mara is that she has become the big 4th. And that upsets a few people because she's just a book character and has taken some "Screen" time away from the movie characters. But what has been forgotten is that this is the EXPANDED universe. That means new characters. I'd much rather have new characters (Mara, Thrawn, Karrde, Winter, Corran,etc) than just read "Luke, Han and Leia went to the local market and picked up some fruit for dinner. They ran into some bad guys. Han blasted the bad guys. The End".

 

And that upsets a few people because she's just a book character and has taken some "Screen" time away from the movie characters.

Agreed, Liz. Even more hilarious, Del Rey was so stunned terrified of premptive fan fears, that they actually---seriously---actually forewarned the world that no major movie name would die.

That souped every Anzanti drop of suspense from reading TUF for me.

I . . . cannot express my sentiments for that in words adequately. I can't.

 

I wouldn't do that. Wine must be sipped at a time, not guzzled.

 

Bingo!

 

Too bad Tiershon_Fett isn't here. sad Then we could have a real Mara thread.

Someone told me about this, so I came just for you honey!

The PROBLEM, is that the character's existance is improbable. We have the rule of two and Palpatine obviously isn't an equal opportunity employer.

Let us look at Palpatine:

1. He was written as an ordinary man with ordinary needs by Zahn. That is the biggest mistake. Palpatine is the greatest force user of all time. He needs no one after ROTS, after he becomes Emperor. His work is done. All he has worked towards is accomplished. He is at the top of the food chain, with the Chosen One subverted. He is gleeful. He has triumphed. He can see most any possible future, he knows what is going on with everyone around him. He can read mind, use mind projection, and can project his image to people.
He has his apprentice and they spread oppression, because that darkside energy of rage, anger, despair, woe and suffering feeds their power.

2. Anakin Skywalker. The griefstricken widower is under his thrall, and he does what he does to bury his pain, but that gives him strength. He has unlimited power in his fury. He is the terror of the Empire. The Empire is the ultimate authority, it's rule so crushing, that none dare oppose it. Anyone that voices dissent is eliminated. Darth Vader is the face of the ruling Empire. He and Palps are the ultimate bad cop, badder cop duo.

3. The Senate traded their standing for priveledge. It doesn't matter what the peons want. This deal is done. It has occured. Palps employs old friends, trusted allies, they are part of his team. Tarkin, his moffs and governors, long appointed in advance.

So, considering the above, Mara has no place in this dynamic and never has.
First of all, when Palpatine allegedly "adopted" Mara, Anakin had only been with him a matter of months. His loyalty was shaky, he'd joined Palps not out of desire but out of a sense od desperation. Anakin's loyalty would have wavered in the face of Palps collecting brats to train, when he just had killed tons of trainable children. It's completely stupid and against type. WHY would Palpatine do that? All he had to do was have Anakin collect the force sensitive babies and children, and he would have had an army of force sensitives.
So he changes his mind, not two years later? Just absurd. What is the point? He still has tons of opposition, and he's going to drop all that, with an almost uninitiated apprentice, to pick up a stupid girl? I mean, let's just get real. (That's like Hitler dropping his plans for world domination to bounce a whiny toddler on his knee? Yeah right.) And Mara is supposed to be some assassin that kills Palpatine's people that turn "traitor" but this is supposed to be done by a perosn that grew up allegedly in his house, in plain sight, where people saw her grow up her whole life, and she's as blatant as a person can get, evidently you can see her rack come around the corner before she does, and her hair can be spotted from amile away. And this "stealthy" bimbo with a DD cup, and who's always in the company of the Emperor, is actually his greatest secret weapon, who does things that "Vader can't". Well, I think Vader is above that. The second in command of the galaxy doesn't need to stoop so low. Oh! But this redgold assassin, is also supposed to be the heir of the entire Empire, who's to "share" the Empire with Thrawn, Vader, and whatever OC Zahn egonmaniaclly named. Like Vader would tolerate such utter nonsense.

The point is, this self insertion Mary Sue is put there by Zahn, who had to be shoehorned into the storyline with a bucket of Crisco, for no purpose. Zahn created her to satisfy his mundane, unimaginative masterbatory fantasies, and because he has absolutely no understanding of the force or how it works. He should have read Dark Empire. Once a person lives in the dark side, and it gets easier and easier to kill, they are consumed. Mara as a character is impossible, because she had lived in evilness and with anger and rage all her life

 

I'm sorry Tiershon, but at last it has come down between the two of us.

*ignites lightsaber of truth*

You're time has come.

(before we proceed, I don't like the way Zhan handles Palpatine and Vader either-however the original Thrawn Trilogy Mara is actually very likely)

1. The Emperor is the Emperor of the (2nd? 3rd? 4th) Sith Empire. You cannot distance Palpatine, in the EU at least, from the fact that he was eager to throw away not only the spirit of the Rule of Two but the letter of it in the end. The Rule of Two is specifically created so that NO Dark Sider can turn on another Sith when they are engaged in battle. Palpatine quite clearly believed that conflict was GOOD for the Sith. He specifically cultivated an atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and backstabbing (literally so) in every level of the Empire.

Bane wanted a simple mano-a-mano Sith/Apprentice rule over the galaxy. Palpatine wanted to rule over a Dark Jedi Knighthood, Sith Priesthood, and more because he could.

2. Darth Vader is the "Chosen One" but that really doesn't impact his standing in the Empire after the Jedi are destroyed. Darth Vader is number 2 not by virtue of his birth circumstances or even whatever he's done for Palpatine to that point (Murdered the Jedi Knighthood). He's there because he's the strongest AT present. Palpatine cultivated plenty of challengers to Vader's position. Note: Xizor, the head of ISB (the guy with the cybernetic hands), and Baron Tagge were not challengers but opponents deliberately cultivated by Palpatine so that Vader would destroy them and grow stronger for it. They're like mice thrown to a cat, despite what they think. Jerec, Luke Skywalker...well really just Jerec and Luke Skywalker but both were made to eventually overthrow Vader as the main apprentice if Vader couldn't handle it.

3. On this end you're dead on.

To take a brief interlude, you're looking at Mara Jade through the eyes of some fairly weird individuals. Specifically the deluded (and possibly high, did we ever find out what Parck was smoking in the UR?) Vosh Parck.

Mara Jade as depicted by the entirety of the EU, which must be taken into account. Was trained in the techniques of the Force and some minor Dark Side abilities to give her an advantage as an assassin. She was given none of the lore of the Sith, hell none of the lore of the Jedi. She carried a lightsaber but that was a strict tool (probably just to rib vader). What she WAS indoctrinicated to was assassination, covert operations, and effectively La Femme Nikita training (GREAT Show, great movie, remake with Briget Fonda not so good). She was also indoctrinicated into Imperial lore. She wasn't 'raised' by Palpatine, though he certainly paid her an occasional visit and took her to visit a few places. She was taught that he was a god more or less.

I remind you Tiershon Fett that Mara Jade was hardly the only force sensetive brought to the Emperor, in fact its' entirely likely she IS a child of the Jedi (we know she was taken from her 'parents' but she knows very little) just like Roganda Ismaren, Shira Brie, the girl from Wanted By Cracken, the future High Inquisitor Tremayne, etc. The Emperor opened his estates to force sensetives so that they could build the beginning of the new Sith Empire....except ironically Mara alone was signled out to not even have that. She was to be brainwashed to have no power in the Dark Side Empire whatsoever but live like a normal special agent (scum) with a few special priviledges.

(I also remind you Mara is remarkably well proportioned for a comic book girl)

There was a scene where Palpatine said Mara could do things Vader can't. I also remind you that it was finding the location of a Jedi Knight through subtle asking around. Which, by virture of the fact he's wearing a gigantic death mask, is something that isn't possible. I remind you in that story Mara is also ignored by Palpatine as soon as the Emperor is done tweaking his nose and sends in Vader who barely wins. Why

 

Anakin had only been with him a matter of months

Anakin would have been with Palpy for at the very least two year's before Mara Showed up... She's two years younger than Luke.

I like Mara, However, I was a bit disapointed at the way she came across in the NJO.

 

You know, you could easily use most of the same arguements about Kyp as people do about Mara...
I don't see nearly as much polarization over Kyp as Mara, even when both characters have a lot of similar elements.

 

I would really argue that the original Mara Jade was not problematic. She just got pushed to the forefront when she wasn't ready. For example: she is now a Jedi Master who had limited force potential when she was younger. How did that happen?

I liked her character in TTT but now that she has been given a starting role she doesn't quite have the well rounded character that was fleshed out for the movie characters. She has no respect for the dark side, no qualms about killing, and no inner turmoil. I think this is why a lot of people hate her. She is too inhuman.

Granted in the NJO they tried to make her more human by making her love her child but I think that her characterization actually went downhill for the most part. I don't think that the "I'm sick, poor Mara, but you can't help me" phase did anything for her either.

Mara needs to continue this reckless lifestyle until Luke takes away Ben for fear of her corrupting influence. This might force Mara to the darkside finally showing her what to be scared of.

-The Rebel Gungan

 

Up until she married Luke, Mara was one of my favorite characters. After that, all the aspects of her character that made her interesting sort of got sucked out and it just became the Luke & Mara Show. All of the sharp tongued comments written by NJO authors seemed incredibly half-assed and two-dimensional. I liked the idea of the twisted but dangerous pawn of the Emperor turned renegade with a soft spot. Jedi Master Jade Skywalker, wife and mommy, is just much less interesting.

 

No inner turmoil?

Going through Rebel Dream/Stand, Mara is somewhat irrationally overprotective of Ben, which Luke points out. It didn't make much sense at first until I considered that she was taken from her family as a child. Between that, and the recent loss of Anakin, her actions make a lot more sense.

 

Mmm, Khaleen Hentz...couldn't agree with you more Excellence.

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I personally have always been a Mara fan. She's heads and shoulders better than Callista ever was, IMHO. Thank the Force they took Callista away...

One of the few times I've ever been disappointed with a product that Mara was in was in the graphic novel adaption of HTTE. I can't tell you how much I cringed when I saw the way they portrayed her anger towards Luke with a "thought bubble" saying "I hate you."

 

I've never had any problems with Mara, and loved her along with most of the other Zahn creations, just as some of the X-Wing novels characters have b/c as much my favorites as the OT 3. I did find her a bit off in the NJO...

 

My problem with Mara isn't so much who she is but what she isn't. I don't mind her being rude, bitchy, obsessive, pretentious, etc. No, I like that. That gives her character. That means she's flawed and human. Even if you don't like her personality, at least she's strong enough to inspire some emotion or another.

What bothers me about Mara is that I feel like she stagnates past a certain point in the post-ROTJ EU. They make her this edgy but fairly shadowy character, which makes her interesting, and then...nothing. She just stays that way. They don't develop her emotionally, politically, socially...very little. Most of her entrances past TTT are just cameo appearances or small character parts that only serve to further a plot rather than a character. For somebody who's being pushed as the women to become Mrs. Skywalker, this isn't really a good thing. Then BAM!, after years of nothing out of her, she marries Luke and gets shoved into the spotlight. No real changes to her personality, just a rise in rank. Mara doesn't do well a good forefront character, IMO. She works much better as second tier, where her character flaws can work to her advantage rather than be constantly shoved in the reader's face. And then there's the whole NJO fiasco that I won't get into, but to summarize briefly, I feel alot of character butchering went on there, especially for the OCs, who were never well-defined to begin with.

Over all, I actually like Mara Jade. I just try to stay away from her post-SQ era. She suffers from the same fate that alot of the EU OC characters suffer from, although she doesn't have anywhere as bad off as the Big Three.

 

To the above posters, I agree. She wasn't ready as a character to be foisted onto readers as the big fourth. I am sick of Zahn getting his way, no matter how damaging. She was great as an occassional character. As of JAT, she was calm, and amusing. Then she goes back to square one. I read Luke and Mara scenes and all I ever think is, why did Luke settle for this? What are they doing together? I sense no love, more like infatuation. She's just not good enough to be where she is. And the fact that everyone defers to her at all times, not because she's right, but because she will get "upset", is to me, disgusting.

Anakin would have been with Palpy for at the very least two year's before Mara Showed up... She's two years younger than Luke


Nope. Older. So Anakin was there a few months. Not even years. Maybe a year. I don't think Anakin would tolerate that well. He still needs to be worked on more at that point. I find it very unlikely that Palp would drop Anakin at a critical time, when he is not happy with his decision, to go find a bunch of kids. It's not Palp's way. He is patient. He would wait longer, because Anakin is a loose canon. It doesn't make sense.

She's two years older. Zahn has admitted this. It works better that way.
Or she would have been 16 during ANH, and in the Emperor's glorious service for only three years, so where would she get all this experience, as a 5'3" girl (that can beat up super commandos, and navy seals, with her hands tied behind her back (this is what I hate, the Mary Sueism, she's too young to be a Jet Li character as Jet is 35.))
If she was 21, then Luke was 19, and then she would have 7-8 years of experience. I buy that a bit more. IMO, it doesn't matter how tough you think you are, if you weigh 90 pounds, some 6'5" guy will beat you. I take that she is such a mighty warrior with a huge grain of salt. After all, we only have conjecture, Mara's twisted take on most things. Her huge ego gets int he way of teling an objective story.
I don't hold out for more realism from MR Whitewash himself, in the new book with Mara at the "height of her powers". Makes me think of Hillary Duff at the height of HER powers, a teen. Even Maul, and Anakin were adults with tons of experience, and they weren't perfect. Palps did raise Maul. He did have Anakin from a very young age, and Anakin still didn't really believe in him, he just wanted to save his wife.
Why is Mara written such a freakish way? She's written like Maul II, but had none of Maul's awesome capabilites. Maul had more sense, he was a bad ass. I don't see a 14 year old girl as a bad ass no matter how crack a shot. Just a kid, afterall.

Mary Sueism does suck.