The "Qui-Gon Jinn" vs. "Sifo-Dyas" story arc.

I know I'll get flamed for this, but that's okay, I absorb thermal energy. *ahem* anyways...

I wish Lucas never mentioned this enigmatic Sifo-Dyas character. It's the middle of the saga with one movie to go, I mean, it's a little damn late to do this. It's really not model storytelling and seems quite sloppy in the scheme of things. Of course, Lucas never adheres to any model so... whatever.

I just wish instead of Sifo-Dyas, the Kaminoans told Obi-Wan that Master Qui-Gon had ordered the clone army. It would create such a conflict in Obi-Wan, wondering if his master was a puppet or a player, and it just would have connected things better in my humble opinion.

To introduce some NEW mysterious character in a movie chock full of mysterious characters in one brief instant in such a pivotal scene is retarded. Who ordered the clone army? Sifo-Dyas? Did we see him in TPM? No. Why not? What the hell? What does he have to do with anything? Where is this guy? Who, what? I mean, we have all these aliases, Tyranus (which was hardly recognizable and probably said only once in the movie), Sidious and Palpy conundrum, mad Ani... and then.... Sifo-Dyas, some Jedi who died ten years ago.

The only way this would have worked is if we saw Sifo Dyas in TPM which would have made sense since that was 10 years ago. It's almost like *gasp* bad storytelling. If he was in TPM it would have connected the fragmented mess of Ep. I and Ep. II much better.

What do you think of the Sifo-Dyas mystery? Would it have been better if it was Qui-Gon. Hell, could Sifo be Qui-Gon? Or is it Sidious? Or is it just stupid?

So speaks the human torch, "Flame on!"

 

While admirable in some respects, the labyrinthine plot of the fall of the Republic and the rise of Palpatine became overly complicated with the revelations, or lack thereof, in AotC.

I actually admired the plot politics of Episode I, which were extremely clever and simple enough to still work.

 

we never saw the bothans either, but we know they stole the plans to the death star. point is. your point is no point at all. oh well, try again next time.

 

That refutation made no sense whatsoever.

The Bothans didn't add confusion into the mix, and didn't complicate the (non-existant) politics of ROTJ.

The introduction of the name Sifo-Dyas into an already bafflingly complex political story arc, however, was unnecessary and merely added confusion to an already fairly confusing film.

Episode I is unbelievably straight-forward compared to Episode II, and that is quite a statement.

Whatever happened to "boy meets a wizard, they meet a pilot, they rescue a princess, then defeat the villains"?

People miss the simplicity. It was a virtue.

 

There is no "Sifo Dyas story arc".

It's just a name, and it most likely won't be expanded on any further.

 

It is kinda confusing, but I'm sure GL will resolve it in Ep 3.

I imagine we'll see something akin to a flashback about Sifo-Dyas, perhaps during a conversation between Dooku and Sidious. I imagine what it will have been is that Dooku (when he was still a jedi) and Dyas were friends, and the dark side turned Dooku used Dyas in some way, perhaps convincing him or tricking him into ordering the army (washing the sith's hands of it, persay), then killing him afterward?

It's all that sith intrigue that is so confusing Sidious has set up everything the way he wants it. He wanted the clone army to fall into the hands of the republic (ahem, because he leads the republic as Chancellor), therefore giving him the tools he needs to rule the galaxy his way, tho appearing to be doing what's best for the republic.

As for Jango Fett being recruited by Tyranus (Dooku), that was no surprise, I imagine that Sidious gave Dooku that assignment to make sure the created warriors would be talented and competent.

I'm confused too.... hopefully all will be revealed in Ep 3.

 

exactly..look he ordered the clones. he just sat there and signed a paper, people order clones in star wars all the time. its no big deal. its like sending for a credit card or ordering pizza.

there is no story arc here. its point less.

 

I agree that it was poor storytelling and also think the simplicity of the old trilogy is not present in the prequals. Dooku should also have been included in TPM. However, that has never been Lucas's style of storytelling. The old trillogy is full of characters with no background as well. Tarkin, Lando, Admiral Ackbar, and Mon Mothma all play critical positions with no story arc. I think the overall apeal of StarWars was the eye candy of special effects. While the prequal trilogies effects are even better, the publics demand for effects is dropping due to the fact that even the television comercials of today have better effects than the block busters of the 70s and 80s. The younger generation expects effects like we expcted end credits, and is niether impressed or excited about them but rather takes them for granted. The story of the prequals is under much more srutiny than the old trilogy ever was.

 

I'm sure once GL tells the explains the whole Sifo-Dyas mystery your whole point will be moot. Complaining over a story element that hasn't even been fully explained is unecessary. It's a waste of time. Having Qui Gon order the clones is (as of now) a silly statement. If it wasn't him, then what?

Whatever.

 

I just wish instead of Sifo-Dyas, the Kaminoans told Obi-Wan that Master Qui-Gon had ordered the clone army.

- My thoughts exactly!! It's not silly at all. We know who Qui-gon was, Sifo-Dyas is nobody! Someone took Qui-Gon's name and ordered the clones, trashing his reputation!
And i would say that ordering an army of a few million clones is a pretty big thing, not like ordering a pizza.

Not that the Sifo-Dyas thing is so terrible, but we never saw the guy anyway. So it's not very interesting.

People miss the simplicity. It was a virtue.
- Yes, simple stories are often the most powerful! But i didn't think the story of AOTC was so terribly complex. In fact i thought it was pretty simple.

 

Personally, I didn't think the introduction of Sifo-Dyas as a mysterious character was such a bad idea. There will most likely be some big twist thrown at us in Episode III and Sifo will be at the heart of this.

The reason the twist happens in III is because it will be the fulcrum of the series. In order to faciliate this, it was necessary to set it up, which is why Sifo-Dyas exists in AOTC. Had he not been a mysterious character, the twist may not have been as shocking (can't really say if it would or not since we don't know what it involves).

 

I'm not sure if there will be a big twist in Ep3 concerning Sifo-Dyas.
Remember that the character's name was SiDo-Dyas (or something like that) in the original script. Clearly Sidious...(or so i think).
That would be pretty straight forward.
We'll just have to wait and see.

 

Qui-Gon didn't have anything to do with the clone army. He died around the same time Sifo-Dyas did.

In a way, if you pay close attention to ATOC, it doesn't have to explain that Master Sifo-Dyas was killed by Dooku because he was. It's obvious also that Count Dooku was the one who erased those Kamino files so it would never be detected. The clones are being grown on Kamino. It's painfully obvious that Dooku had Sifo-DYas murdered then used his name to order the clones. Jango Fett, the orginal host, even said that he was recruited by Tyranus and we all know Tyranus is none other than.....

The only thing that puzzles me now is why Master Jedi Obi-wan Kenobi was expected by the Prime Minister and Lama Su.

Any suggestions?

 

Was Obi-Wan expected, personally? The way I remember it Lama Su was just expecting a jedi, and Obi Wan introduced himself and she assumed he was the jedi that she was waiting for.

Obviously there wasn't a jedi with a pending assignment to go to Kamino. Seeing as the jedi didn't even know about the planet. Sidious probably just assumed they'd find out eventually. Maybe Dooku even told Fett to let Zam fail and then kill her so the jedis could get on the hunt. To get the ball rolling, that sort of thing?

 

All you need to know about Sifo-Dyas: he was a dead Jedi whose name was used by Dooku/Sidious to order the clones. Because he was dead, it means that it wasn't a Jedi, but a Sith (or someone working for the Sith) who ordered the clones.

 

A Jedi was expected because Dooku and his Sith chum are preparing for the Jedi to discover the clones, and this will be used against them in Episode III. So whoever ordered the clones made it clear to Lama Su, so he'd make it impossibly easy for the Jedi to acquire the clones.

 

the fact is that lucas had originally written it as sido-dyas, the jedi master that never existed. instead of the obvious palpatine connection he replaced it with a plot twist that goes nowhere. he added mystery to the audience instead of to the movie. the point of storytelling is not to trick the audience. a good mystery tricks the characters in the story first and foremost.

now that it's been said, i agree that qui-gon would have been a much more compelling twist than sifo dido dingus. it would have raised the question in our minds, did qui-gon really do this? was he in league with palpatine, and snuffed by maul to silence him?
sifodyas just leaves us flat - ooh, big-whoop, some guy we've never heard of may or may not be a traitor. shux, and i was so emotionally attached to that previously unmentioned jedi master, and now that his reputation is on the line there is an element of nervous tension added here.

 

It's not a twist. It's a plot point. Palpatine is framing the Jedi. You look at the Jedi files and see no entry on Sido-Dyas, it'll be obvious that someone else did it. But, if you see a Sifo-Dyas who is dead, then you can say conspiracy.

Sifo-Dyas orders the clones. He just happens to be dead and cannot be questioned. Count Dooku just happens to be the leader of the CIS and was a former Jedi. Obi-wan Kenobi just happens to find them in time. Now after the Clone Wars, they accuse Palpatine of being Darth Sidious and the mastermind. Guess what? No one is going to believe them. They're going to think that the Jedi are trying to oust the leader of the Republic, in a bid for control.

I wish Lucas would've showed Dooku in TPM.

I guess he should've showed Mon Mothma and Lando in ANH. Or Palpatine in ANH. Or Captain/Admrial Piett in ANH for that matter. Or Admrial Ackbar and Yoda in ANH. There was no point in Dooku being in TPM. Espeically since he hadn't come up with him until he began writting AOTC.

 

Exactly Zeek!

I'm not saying that AOTC is now overly complex (which it could easily be considered) with the inception of Sifo-Dyas, however it's just not clear cut. It's not a smooth transition.

Homeless Jedi, to compare this Sifo Dyas to Bothans is rediculous. Bothans stole the Death Star Plans. Yeah. No Mystery there.

Who ordered the clone army? Sifo-Dyas. Now I know Sifo-Dyas was originaly Sido-Dyas which was a reference to Sidious and very obvious. That obvious reference would have been much better IMHO.

You see, incorporating this Sifo-Dyas, and then having Obi recognize him as an ACTUAL JEDI along with Mace and Yoda is confusing for the simple fact that we've already had an Ep I. yet there was no mention of this guy. It's simply too late in the story to throw this guy in. It's not like its a twist or anything. It's just kind of silly, like it was just thrown in there just in case they wanna tie something together in Ep. III. (That's what I meant when saying 'not smooth').

I mean, this Clone ordering business is what we writers like to call a PLOT POINT. An unorganized plot point is a mess of a story.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a basher, I loved AOTC, but I have every right to disagree with its story elements the way I would ANY story.

Also promiscuous_jedi mentioned that it was obvious Dooku had Sifo-Dyas killed. While that's not apparantly obvious it is an interesting assumption. However it would be even more powerful if we had seen this Sifo-Dyas in Ep. I.

To me, having Lama Su say Master Qui-Gon ordered the clones would have been such a beautiful plot device for not only AOTC, but TPM as well! Could you imagine how you would watch (and actually appreciate) TPM? Then it could truly be said that in the prequels, nothing is as it seems. Instead, the statement is, nothing is ever seen.

EDIT:

Sinister you make a good point, except the only thing is Admiral Ackbar and these new guys who showed up in ROTJ were never MENTIONED in the first or second of the series. And they weren't a part of a major plot point. They were just supporting characters.

This Sifo-Dyas is much more important for the simple fact that if you never ever mention him again in Ep. III, it would be considered a plot hole. If Admiral 'fishhead' Ackbar was never shown, nobody would care.

 

"I wish Lucas would've showed Dooku in TPM."

"I guess he should've showed Mon Mothma and Lando in ANH. Or Palpatine in ANH. Or Captain/Admrial Piett in ANH for that matter. Or
Admrial Ackbar and Yoda in ANH. There was no point in Dooku being in TPM. Espeically since he hadn't come up with him until he
began writting AOTC."

actually, that's the whole point of the gripe. the prequels are obviously written to be one movie, but lucas has not written them as one unit. if he wanted to easily fill in the blanks he would have written all three as one, then gone back and fixed everyting that needed fixing before ever committing it to screen. plot holes fixed.

 

I agree, Qui-Gon ordering the clones (or even hinting that he did) would have been a great twist and really make Obi-Wan conflicted.

 

Having Qui-Gon ordering the clones would've really screwed things up. First of all, now the focus is away from OB1's failure of controlling Anakin, to how OB1's master ordered the clones to be made, thus creating a big arse war between the Clones/Republic and the Separatists. No longer is OB1's failure with Anakin the cause for so much death and suffering, but his master's for diminishing the ranks of the Jedi.

Jedi believe that peace is the answer not war. I'm sure even Qui-Gon believed in that.

Dooku was smart in hiding his true agenda from the Separatists, smart in erasing Kamino from the archives (i assume he did that since he once was a Jedi), and whoever used the name Sifo-Dyas for ordering the clones was smart since the person was real and can't be questioned anymore.

Using a dead guy's name, who used to be a part of your sworn enemies, to fool a whole race to build an army for you without asking questions, and then fooling a huge amount of the galaxy that seceding is the only way of getting what they want, all while secretly planning to betray them, thus causing a HUGE Civil War, without having to reveal your true identity(s) to the people (Jedi) who are the only ones capable of stopping you.

Now if that isn't enough plot for people, go watch some Columbo or Hitchcock.

Man, you guys are reaching for something that would totally screw things up.

 

A bit off topic:

"Jedi believe that peace is the answer not war. I'm sure even Qui-Gon believed in that."

Was Obi-Wan and Anakin going to stop Dooku, or murder him? That's a bit unJedi-like isn't it?

 

I think it would have been a great plot twist also, to have QGJ order the clones. However, I believe GL wants to keep QGJ a good guy, hence his yelling at Anakin while killing the tusken raiders. If QGJ were a bad guy, he probably would have liked the fact Ani was killing the Tuskens, and hence moving closer to the dark side. Rather, he yelled, "No Anakin No..." while Yoda is meditating and here's the voice.

While reviewing the characters which Christopher Lee has played, it states on the site "Count Dooku, aka Sifu Dyas." Don't know if that was supposed to be on that site or not, but certainly seems to have spilled "some beans" if correct.

If it's Dooku or Palps, then there's no more story to it, but with QGJ, it would have been an interesting plot twist, but then who gave QGJ the order, and wouldn't it stand to reason that if QGJ had placed the order, and assuming he's a good guy, then the other jedi/Yoda/Mace, would certainly have known about it because QGJ wouldn't have had reason to keep it from them.

Let's not forget QGJ in TPM met with the Trade Federation to nullify the dispute, and Sidious wanted the Jedi dead "The Chancellor should never have brought them into this....kill them immediately..." So I don't see QGJ being a bad guy, just a pawn who alerted Naboo to the fact there was a droid army, and hence at this point "a" Sifu Dyas ordered the clone army to "combat" the droids, which in essence, as we know, Sidious/Palps was playing both sides...

 

sorry, i think the misunderstanding here is that in the qui-gon scenario, much like the sifo-dyas scenario, he would have already been dead when he ordered the clones.