The Senate, the Separatists , and the Sith Agenda

Haven?t posted here in ages, but I was watching clones last night, and I saw that there was way more going on here than I originally realized.

So, what IS really going on, as far as the sith and the senate goes? Here are my thoughts (summarized first, then with explanations):

Sidious?s only goal in TPM was to put himself in a position of power within the senate.

Dooku?s and Sidious both had a hand in creating the clone army ? Sidious ordered them, Dooku hired Jango.

Dooku was in charge of amassing a droid army, while Sidious was responsible for trying to get the republic to adopt an army of it?s own (subsequently, the clone army).

Dooku successfully enlists the trade federation, by misleading them into thinking they are going to get revenge on Sidious.

In depth:

Sidious has a goal: use the republic to create a galactic empire. Now, even before TPM, Sidious knows that if he wants to take over the republic, he must get at it from the inside out. So he gets with the trade federation and creates a "bogus" threat in the form of an embargo on naboo, which puts the planet on the brink of war. We all know how that ends (plus, even if the outcome of TPM's droid/gungan war had the droid side victorious, it wouldn't have mattered to sidious cuz palpatine would still have gotten the sympathy vote.. it was a win/win for him). Now Palp is in position of authority... but he still needs some drastic events if he wants to change the republic.

After Naboo, sidious realizes that a driod army would be useless in the long term, so he needs to figure out a way to get a human and/or clone army to defend the republic if he wants to one day use it to take over the galaxy. Now, this being peacetime, and an overall utopia, getting the republic and the jedi to agree to a clone army is no easy feet.

Enter Dooku... a fallen jedi, but still a valuable reputation (sidious no longer has his, since the trade federation aren't going to get burned by him twice). Sidious arranges for the clone army to begin construction (exactly what steps are taken, and how the name Sypho-Dyas fits in will probably be explained in epIII). Dooku meets with Fett, hires him for the clones. Fett becomes Dooku's right hand man. From here on, Sidious's job is to guide the senate towards war, and Dooku's job is to start a separatist movement.

At this point, the senate still has no need for an army. Dooku is about to change that. He meets with the trade federation to persuade them to allow their droid army to fight for the separatists. Again, this isn't an easy task, since the trade federation already got screwed over once by sidious. So Dooku comes in the guise that his real motive to get rid of sidious. He tells the trade fed that "the right thing to do for the galaxy" would be to get your army ready to attack the republic, in order to get sidious/palpatine out of power. Dooku basically tells the trade federation everything that he told obiwan in the cell, only difference is that the trade federation buys into it.

And how can the trade federation NOT fall for this? Dooku is offering them so much: the chance to get revenge on sidious... not to mention the chance to save the republic from certain doom, and maybe take some tarnish off of the trade federation name. The trade federation and their droid army are now on board. And, since those droids suck, Dooku brings in the tech union to add to their arsenal. Add some separatist supporters... Ladies and gentleman, we have an army.

With the separatists positioning themselves as a formidable "problem" for the republic, the senate and jedi become restless. The majority of the senate would probably be all for creating an army.. if it wasn't for one thing... padme. She's a strong voice, and her voice opposes the creation of an army. Sidious and Dooku decide they have to kill her. Thus begins episode II.

Failing to kill padme sends her into hiding. Not what Dooku and Sidious had indented, but it will do. Jar Jar assumes Padme's role in the senate, which gives sidious a

 

Good analysis. Well done.

 

Awesome Job!, I think I'll copy and paste your description to send it to some of my friends who still don't get it!

 

Excellent job Darth Succulent!
I think you came up with the best summary I've seen so far about what was going on. No need to debate anything like that Sidious-Palpy being clones, twins, unrelated...or Qui-Gon, Mace, or anybody else being Syfo-Dyas. George gave us the story as simple as it could be. The facts are there, no need to extrapolate anything else.

 

A well thought out summary Darth Succulent, good job.

I have not thought much about it from the Separatist side. The idea that what they are doing is what they believe to be right. That's something to chew on for awhile. But they still aren't saints. They're motivated by money as well.

 

Nice job, Succulent.


It's also obvious that Palpatine is trying to get rid of the huge commmercial organizations that control everything. Once he gets rid of the Bureaucracy, he creates the need for a strong-willed, all-knowing, powerful ruler to take control of EVERYTHING, and build the galaxy back up to what it's supposed to be. So by getting Dooku to bring the TF, the TU, the IBC, and all the other organizations into the Seperatist movement, so that they can be destroyed in Ep. III, he lays the foundations for the need for a totalitarian form of govenrnment in which he rules.

 

Good job Darth Succulent. I think we should make this the official thread that everyone has to read before they post a "Dooku is really a good guy" thread.

 

JediMaster201,

great point! I hadn't even really considered the fact that those other clans were so important to the overall scheme. I figured them for just pawns, but your theory makes MUCH more sense!

Thanks!

 

I agree with pretty much everything, except that I don't believe the Rebellion came out of the separatists (they were probably crushed by Palpatine, since he knew thanks to Dooku their strengths and weaknesses). I think the Rebellion comes out of the loyalist faction in the senate led by Padme and Bail Organa.

Otherwise, the Rebel Alliance would have been made up largely of Neimoidians, Techno-Union type dudes and battle droids...

 

I agree with Princess_Tina about the formation of the Rebellion that we know of in the OT.

 

WOW!!! Talk about right on the mark. Your evaluation makes more sense than any I've ever seen on these boards or any boards, for that matter. I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I've never been able to put it into words as eloquently as you have. I always get sidetracked by little theories here and little theories there.
You truly have a gift for stating the pure and simply obvious truth without getting bogged down in other's opinions and theories.

"Also, does this mean that the separatists will eventually evolve into the rebellion? Thoughts?

I don't think so. I think the Separatist Movement will be utterly and completely destroyed by the Republic during the Clone Wars. The Rebellion, I think, will spring from within the Republic Systems that remained faithful....until evidence of Palpatine's evil became apparent.

Nonetheless, good job!!! This should be required reading for all who would hope to someday post in the AOTC Forums!!!

 

The one flaw with your summary (and the part I still dont get) is Nute Gunray's line,"What about the senator from Naboo? Im not signing anything until I have her head on my desk."

Does Sid and/or Dooku have ANY intention of killing her? If they dont the Trade Federation wont join the Separatists. And Im sure they want that. Then again, Anikan went to PALPATINE to tell him that he and Padme were going to Naboo. In fact, Palp is the one who forced Padme into going, she didnt want to leave. So, if Palp knew where she was hiding AND he wanted her dead, why didnt he get an assassin to easily take her out? My guess is that he never wanted her dead. But if thats true, whats with Jango and Zam sending in the worms? They were so close to killing her! Do they want her dead or not?!?!?

Plus, why in the world would Padme think in the beginning of the movie that Count Dooku is behind the assassination attempts? She was AGAINST the army. Dooku wouldve loved that (from her point of view.) It makes no sense!

Plus, why in the world would Palpatine suggest Kenobi and Anikan to protect Padme? It makes no sense!

Plus, why in the world would Jango return home to Kamino after NOT completing his task to kill Padme? He wouldve stayed till the job was done. Was his assignment to NOT kill her but lead the jedi to Kamino? If so, why would he give the worms to Zam? They came very close to killing her, which Jango would not want. It makes no sense!

 

I like it how you say "Plus, why in the world..." over and over... the repetition makes it sound like a song or a poem...

Let's all sing:
"Plus why in the world... la la la la la ... it makes no sense!!!"

 

Wow... praise from Caesar.

I'm surprised anyone took the time to read it.. it was a book and a half, mostly written just so i could make sure i had everything straight in my head. Thanks for the comments!

As far as the separatists/rebels relationship... that was an after thought. I'm not sold on it yet, myself. But GL does like to have things intertwine... and I wouldn't be shocked if he makes the separatists evolve into the rebellion... and here's why:

The separatists are basically separating themselves from the republic, while the rebellion is rebelling against the empire. If the republic turns into the empire? then wouldn?t the rebellion be fighting against the same thing that the separatists are?

Sure, the cause is completely different? but by the time the republic goes from super happy sunshine utopia, to evil kill death empire, then it?s not outrageous to think that maybe the separatists motives will change by then too. Especially when you consider that it?s going to become alarming clear that the republic?s army is not meant for defense.

Once the separatists realize that they?re fighting a losing battle against what will become an evil empire, maybe they?ll join up with the loyalists. The loyalists have their eyes on the prize, but do they have the means to over through the empire? Maybe, maybe not. But if they take whatever units the separatists have left, scare up some bothan spies, they might have a rebellion on our hands.

Not to mention the complete and utter irony that would accompany a scenario where the army the jedi were once fighting against (the separatists) evolves into their last hope (the rebels).

But, again? just some random thoughts. No real proof? just throwing it out there.

 

I think you have a few timing things off. I think the separtists wanted to get out of the Republic badly, it wasn't until the middle of AOTC that they actually joined forces. Remember Nute wouldn't join until Padme was killed.

 

In response to Darth Weenie,

You asked some great questions. I hadn?t even considered them. So I thought about it, and came up with some possible explanations. Again, I?ll summarize, then go in depth:

Do Sid and or Dooku have any intention of killing her: yes at first, but then, no. No, because they?re going to use her to get to Anakin.

Why kill Padme if she was against building an army: Because it would force the senate to build an army, which would then leave the separatists free to attack the senate.

Why send Kenobi and Skywalker to protect Padme: So that Sidious can keep tabs on both Padme AND skywalker.

Why Nute wants Padme dead: He?s a bitter, spiteful man with a score to settle.

In depth:

I think that Sidious and Dooku initially intended to kill Padme. If Padme is murdered, supposedly by the separatists, then it would scare the ba-jesus out of the senate, and they?d definitely vote for the army.

Now we know that Dooku and Sidious want the republic to create an army, but do the separatists? I would argue yes and no. The separatists want to become the new power in the galaxy, and they?re about to pull it off. They have a huge army, while the senate has none. But they can?t just show up at the senate doorstep with 100,000 droids and kick everyone out. If they do that, they?ll scare off any planet that?s on the fence, which will end up hurting the separatists, and helping the galactic senate. So they?re waiting for the senate to slip up, allowing the separatists to slide in under the radar. This vote appears to be the opportunity that the separatists are looking for.

So, lets say that the senate votes to create an army, without Jar Jar?s speech and with no idea that the separatists already have one. That could be seen as a violent threat towards the separatists, which would allow them to break off negotiations with the senate and prepare for a war (which is the entire reason that Padme is AGAINST forming the army). As soon as the vote goes through, the senate would begin getting their army together (they?d probably end up hiring the Kamino?s or another cloning tribe). But, unbeknownst to the republic, the separatists already have an army, and would most likely take the offensive initiative. The senate would scramble to get there forces together, but with no real army it would only be a matter of time before they surrender, which would then lead the galaxy to a separatists run government focused on capitalism.

Obviously, the separatists (except for Dooku, or course) had no idea that the senate would have a clone army at their disposal.

As far as Nute?s ?I want her head on my desk? comment, I think that was more a personal issue than a business one. Keep in mind that Padme already screwed things up for the trade federation once before, tarnishing Nute?s reputation and making him look down right foolish in the process. He and Padme have a history, and now Padme is in the spotlight again with her ?peace not war? platform, so I wouldn?t put it beyond Nute to ask Dooku to have her killed and out of the way before he goes all in with his droid army. So I?d say he wants her dead partly because he?ll feel safer business wise, and partly because he?s got a score to settle. Dooku agree?s to have her killed, because not only does it help the separatists movement, but it works for the sith cause as well (putting jar jar in the senate seat).

But 2 attempts, the assassination appears to be called off? why? You?re right, Palpatine knows where she is and how to get to her? so why not off her completely and seal the deal? Two words: Anakin Skywalker.

There?s a nice little love triangle going on here between Anakin, Padme and Palpy. Palp offers Kenobi?s services to protect her because he obviously knows that Skywalker will come along for the ride. Now, remember the exchange between Palp and Anakin in Palpy?s office alone: ?I sense you will become the most powerful of all the jedi.? The two of them obviously already have a relationship, and I don?t think it?s unr

 

I am still uncertain that Dooku is a bad guy. After TPM Dooku is assigned to the case because it was his padawan that died and that would be very much like losing a son. He comes into contact with Nute who tells him all about Sidious or at least what he knows. There is no reason to think that Nute knew that Sidious is Palpatine. Now Dooku goes back to the council saying that the senate is corrupt and under the control of the Sith Lord. They give him the same run around they give OB1. They tell him that these are obvious lies because the Jedi should be able to sense a Sith Lord that close. Dooku upset about the Jedi's arrogance leaves the order although still in good standing. Notice the Jedi who believed Dooku to be a good man never tried to talk to him about the seperatist movement. Never sent ambassadors like they did to Naboo. I believe mostly because they never assessed a threat from Dooku. He was one of them and as such is not a killer. Mace hinted at that in AOTC. What if Dooku felt his only recourse was to get to Sidious the same way Sidious got to the Republic. They only way to expose everything he has his hands in is to know what he has his hands in and so through Nute he comes Sidious under the guise of being fed up with the order. Sidious brings him in and shows him the darkside because Sidious is the master manipulator. He shows Dooku everything because he wants to show Dooku that he can't be stopped and he has a far grander plan for his next apprentice. I think Dooku is a misguided puppet and it will demonstrate that doing the wrong thing even with the best of intentions is still the wrong thing. I believe that Dooku will be the one to reveal Sidious' plan to the Jedi and will attempt to redeem himself but it will be too late because Palpatine already has another apprentice and he is out for blood. Also one line in AOTC really bothers me. When Palpy is congratulating Ani on his solo mission Anakin tells him that "it was more you guidance than my skill" I believe that Palpatine already has Anakin and has been training him on the side.

 

Exactly, Succulent. Great analysis.

 

Meatloaf,

As far as Dooku being a good guy... I'm not sure. All evidence points to him being a sith... that's why GL waited till the end to reveal that he was in bed with sidious. But... you're right. Who knows? All I'm doing is trying to come up with the scenario that makes the most sense with the information we have.

And as for Palp and Skywalker, I think it's obvious that Anakin already looks to Palp as a mentor, asking advise and what have you. But I don't think I'd go so far as to say that Palpatine already "has him." Obviously no training requiring use of the force has begun between these two, because as far as the republic knows, Palp is a politician, not a dark lord.

 

I don't buy into this idea that Palpatine wanted to kill Padme. Her relationship with Anakin is likely to be essential in his fall to the darkside and Palpatine knows this. I suppose he might have been behind the attempts on her life but was gambling that she would survive them and be put in the position where she could be shipped off to Naboo with Anakin.

Also I think that Dooku has a seperate agenda to Palpatine. I'm not saying that he is a good guy but I don't think he is completely behind his master.

 

Succulent said:

"And in conclusion, I think that Jango went back to Kamino because he knew that there was going to be a lot of heat surrounding the 2nd failed attempt. I think his intent was to hide out for a bit? but he didn?t intend on Obi-wan knocking on his door? which is why he ultimately bailed out of Kamino for Geonosis."

I disagree. There would have been a lot of heat surrounding the FIRST assassination attempt. Why not bail out then? Perhaps Jango knows a lot more than you think.

Maybe his INTENT(per his master Dooku's orders) was to shoot a Kamino Sabre-Dart in the presence of jedi, to lead them to Kamino. Jango didnt seem too upset that he had failed so miserably at his job to assassinate Padme. "Was your trip productive?" "Fairly." Maybe he came home because his job WAS done.

Dooku could have given him instructions that if ever a jedi came and mentioned Sifo-Dyas, leave immediatly for Geonosis. Thats the look of concern he had when Obi left the room. "What is it dad?" "Pack your things. Were leaving." Whyd he try to leave right away? Why wouldnt he try to kill OBi? If he left, he could never return, or someone would find and arrest him. His look was thinking it over - "hmmm, I could just kill this jedi and no one would ever know. But then again, Dooku told me all that time ago that if a jedi asked about Sifo, I should get my butt to Geonosis." Hes mulling it over.

He says a man named Tyrannus hired him. If he wasnt very in the know, as to Dooku's and Sid's scheme, he would have said Dooku hired him. He knows Tyrannus. He knows Dooku. He knows theyre the same. If he had told the truth, the jedi wouldve been on to the whole fake war thing -- the leader of the SEPERATISTS creating a clone army for the REPUBLIC? Wouldnt it be strange that no one in the republic had knowledge of their own army, but the leader of their enemy did?

So if this theory were true, it would mean that they would want the jedi to discover the army on Geonosis when they did. Thats why Jango high tailed it out of Kamino and went straight to Geo - to lead the jedi there, to have one of them report that they were ammasing an army, to make the senate grant palpatine emergency powers, to make them use the clones, to get the war in full swing. Sounds good, right? Makes sense right?

Then why in the world did Jango and Dooku TRY TO KILL OBIWAN ON THE PLATFORM, IN THE ASTEROID FIELD, AND IN THE ARENA? They GENUINELY tried to STOP him from finding their army!

There are plenty of holes to your theory and mine and anyone elses for that matter. I guess there are holes to ANY theory one can make up to "explain" AOTC, because the movie itself doesnt make sense. Dont get me wrong-o, thats not necessarily a bad thing. Its just the Star Wars way.

 

I am still uncertain that Dooku is a bad guy. What if Dooku felt his only recourse was to get to Sidious the same way Sidious got to the Republic. They only way to expose everything he has his hands in is to know what he has his hands in and so through Nute he comes Sidious under the guise of being fed up with the order. Sidious brings him in and shows him the darkside because Sidious is the master manipulator. He shows Dooku everything because he wants to show Dooku that he can't be stopped and he has a far grander plan for his next apprentice.

Mark my words, we will have another Sith duel between Anakin and Dooku, with Sidious in the background saying "...give in to your anger... ...and take his place at my side!"
And this is why:
Also one line in AOTC really bothers me. When Palpy is congratulating Ani on his solo mission Anakin tells him that "it was more your guidance than my skill" I believe that Palpatine already has Anakin and has been training him on the side.

Master Mishima

 

There was no need for Palpatine to want Padme dead after the 2nd failed attempt. He realised that it was quicker to get Padme out of the way just as easily by ordering her to go to Naboo while the vote is cast. As for Palpatine wanting to be matchmaker I think that is a little far fetched. Getting Anakin to fall for Padme and vice versa would rely on too many factors out of his control e.g. their hormones for starters!

The theory that Jango deliberately killed Zam with the Kamino dart to lead the Jedi to Kamino is also doubtful. Palpatine had already framed the Jedi by getting Dooku to order the army under their name anyway. Once the Military Creation Act had been passed I expect at this point Palpy was planning to set the Jedi up. The fact that the Jedi discovered the clones beforehand meant he had to move quickly to get the Act passed - hence the setting up of Jar Jar.

 

Someone mentioned it surprising that they tried killing Obi-Wan.

Methinks the Sith have a Maul-shaped grudge in their hearts. They really *do* go out of their way for a non-Jango assassin who doesn't even know about Padme's decoys, and Palps is pretty adamant about getting her sent to Naboo. There's at least superficial evidence that he wanted her (and, of course, Anakin) alive.

Obi, on the other hand, has the droid he's holding on to shot, rockets fired at him, thrown (supposedly) into an endless sea, fired at in an asteroid field, first to be sentenced to death--they really wanted Obi-Wan gone. Luck (or the Force) was all that kept that from happening.

Anakin and Padme were sentenced to die either because A) despite Palpy shuffling them off, they managed to learn too much B) Dooku isn't fully in-sync with his master on the "who do I kill and who do I spare" list or C)Palp knew the Jedi and the Clones were en route, so ordered Dooku to hold the kangaroo court and make Nute Gunray happy. It's a hell of an alibi. "Why isn't she dead yet?" "Well, Nute, there was kind of these ONE MILLION SOLDIERS!"

Ah, just a thought.