The Sith Retcon: One True Sith Empire, a Killik Sith Lord, Centerpoint, the Maw, and the Celestials.

Never trust Wikipedia.

 

And another:

Maybe once more for emphasis:

Add that to the fact that Kreia was ****ing insane and you have yourself a bad theory.

Anyway, I fail to see how you can make the leap that because the "True Sith" existed at approximately 7,000 BBY, they must've existed at 30,000 BBY (which, according to the NEC, is before the original Jedi even left their home planet). Explain, please.

There is also nothing to indicate how or why the Celestials disappeared.

 

However this fits into any theories or contradictions, the True Sith Empire cannot be in the same area of space that is called the Unknown Regions in the time of the Big 3. It's only location can be in the general area of Helska, Sernpidal, Lorrd, and Bonadan. I personally don't think different locations of the Unknown Regions at different times contradict anything, as they've obviously done some exploring during that time gap.

 

They're two completely different orders.

The "True Sith" existed tens of thousands of years before the so-called First Sith Empire, which is the 6,900 BBY Korriban-and-Ziost political entity founded by the exiled Dark Jedi after the Battle of Corbos. The second KotOR game establishes that the Trayus Academy was built by the True Sith "tens of millennia ago," and that they "retreated deeper back into the Unknown Regions" (or words to that effect) at some point between then and the Tales of the Jedi/KotOR era.

Malachor V is likewise described by Kreia as "sitting right on the doorstep of the True Sith Empire's throneworlds," out in the UR. As for the True Sith themselves, we have only this one game at present, but the rough timeframe of their existence coincides awfully well with the Killik disappearance, the Rakatan collapse, and the Maw/Centerpoint constructions...and in the game, we're never at any point told exactly why the True Sith retreated back into the UR; only that it happened untold millennia earlier. Some unrevealed cosmic war betwixt them and the Celestials, possibly, or another reason altogether?

It is. Check out the map in The New Essential Chronology -- it clearly places Malachor V not far from Rakata Prime, both of which sit right smack on the borders of the UR as it exists in Luke Skywalker's era. That said, there is an interesting tidbit that I recently discovered within Kreia's dialogue during a playthrough of the game's ending, which reveals something fascinating:

Exile: And Bao-Dur -- and the droids?

Kreia: Their paths are unknown to me. Even the small one -- who waits for you outside this place -- I sense it has one last journey for you. You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes.

Exile: And Revan? He came here, was here. What happened to him?

Kreia: It is because he remembered what lay buried here -- this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark.

Exile: But we've fought the Sith.

Kreia: Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the True Sith Empire, rules elsewhere. And Revan knew that the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way. He left the Ebon Hawk and its machine behind, for he knew he would not need them. And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them.

Thus, considering the NEC's map-placement of Malachor V at the edge of the Unknown Regions, Kreia's dialogue concerning the True Sith's retreat therein, and Korriban's location all the way across the galaxy near its extreme opposite edge, it's clear that the True Sith evidently had some nominal contact with

 

She believed that she could destroy all life, and therefore destroy the Force. I think that'd qualify as insanity.

 

hmm interesting thoughts and discussion so far..

and Kreia was NOT insane.

some random thoughts on pre-republic history:


the republic got born out of countless single nations in the core.. the hutts had already their empire and there were other empires and wars before that.. but.. what if the galaxy already had had long before the formation of the old republic a galaxy wide government? NOT the rakata but some form of larger organisation that evolved into the old rep?

and the TRUE OLD SITH.. might have been the original forceusers that found the force. the legendary SKYWALKER. after all we know JEDI is a term meaning just FORCE USER. SITH is a belief, not just a term. we thought sith got born out of rogue Jedi movements. but what if it was vice versa? SITH rogues formed the Jedi Bendu? the true sith are different than those darkjedi-sith we know with their anger, hate stuff.

the sith name is thought to be baaad baad because of sith species and dark jedi. but the original TRUE SITH, might not be THAT evil, might be different. maybe even harmonic, since they did not attack the republic and kept to themselves. Revan fights them because...? he found them, heard of them.. hunts them.. but did they do something? not that I know. only the Sith we know, the former revan-followers did. sith civil war.. but not the true sith. they are hidden.. but where? why? how? and what are revans motives to get them and defeat them? we know revan is not evil, and has reasons. the true sith are no threat yet.. but why do we think they will be? revans words? kreias words only? do they only think they are because of the term SITH? that´d be silly. we need facts to proof their evilness.

actually we believe dark jedi NEW SITH words about some Unknown Regions culture that might be a threat in the future? hello? KOTOR games made us believe the sith, trust them.. without proof? even if some are mad or not, some like revan and exile are light or dark or whatever.. WHY do we believe it?

hope this helps^^

 

Don't we know that the Sith/Jedi split go back to the founding of the Jedi Order ~25,000 BBY?

If so, wouldn't we not need any of these facts?

 

Actually she believed that she could destroy the force but not all life. Seeing that the Exile could in fact live without the force she realized that it would be possible, using the echo's of suffering that malachor had created and the exile had swallowed to channel the wound into the entirety of the force. The result would be that a large portion of the population would die, as they could not turn their backs on the force, but some would live and they would control their own destiny. A sort goal that is a odd combination of self-determinism and darwinist sith views.

 

If the original Force users were all of one species to begin with, could they have created midi-chlorians to allow other species who they have enslaved to interact with their technology. This race even then could have had the ability to clone and genetically manipulate "lesser races". Maybe they could have even engineered species for specific tasks. It's not to bigger jump to think that maybe they created the Killiks as builders.
This would lend credibility to them creating Centrepoint, they didn't design it they just put the parts together.

 

Wait, do you mean the post-Hundred-Year Darkness Sith Order, or a connection between the True Sith and the ancient Jedi Bendu around 25,000 BBY? If the former, not likely, since that order of Sith was established maybe two millennia or so prior to the Great Hyperspace War. If the latter, very possible -- the timeframes synch up quite nicely, and coincide with a number of other galaxy-shaking events occurring during that distant period.

One other thing I meant to bring up last night and forgot:

In the first KotOR game, Canderous mentions that "the Sith" goaded the Mandalorians into starting their war against the Republic, then "sealed themselves away in their empire" afterward, with the added mention that "[We] didn't expect to see them again for centuries" (or similar words).

Now, we know that the Republic sent in a major fleet to the Sith Empire (the one existing near the Tingel Arm, off the Hydian Way) some ten years after the Battles of Coruscant, Kirrek, and the other engagements of that war, which resulted in the final and total collapse of that domain. The remnants of the Sith there were rooted out, and sources like the Tales of the Jedi RPG sourcebook establish that several escapees eventually founded "enclaves" in the Outer Rim, which survived until the Great Sith War a millennium later.

However, we know that that particular empire was virtually extinct as it had stood before the Great Hyperspace War, for all practical intents and purposes. Finito. Guasto. Thus, two possibilities present themselves for ret-fixing this situation:

1. The "Sith" Canderous referred to in KotOR I were in fact the Dark Lords who we know lived on Korriban in the decades after Exar Kun's defeat, and who kept the Sith Academy there not only alive, but positively flourishing. And yet, the Republic and Jedi Order knew full well of this, but chose to ignore its existence. The NEC mentions that a number of Sith disciples fled Kun's downfall and established "cults" of their own elsewhere in the galaxy -- certainly Korriban itself would have been a prime choice for settling down and proliferating such teachings. To say nothing of spreading certain "tendrils" outward in later decades, and wreaking havoc in key strategic flashpoints.



2. The other possibility -- the True Sith themselves. When the first Knights was released, all of us instantly (and rightfully) assumed that Candalore's dialogue was pointing straight at the Old Sith Empire -- Ziost, Korriban, Vjun, et al -- but with the advent of the True Sith in Knights of the Old Republic II, we now have something of a new paradigm-shift to work around. The other thing to consider: the LFL info concerning the Republic fleet's mop-up of the Sith Empire in 4,990 BBY didn't come about until after the first game's release. Hence, given what we know from there and sources like the RPG sourcebook, the Old Empire is almost totally ruled out as a possible candidate, in favor of either the Korribani Dark Lords, or the True Sith.

To wit, we know that the Sith Empire (or a Sith Empire) was effectively resuscitated by Revan and Malak after the Mandalorian Wars ended, but what isn't known at this moment is whether the Empire spent the years between 3,996 BBY and 3,959 BBY growing on its own, or whether the previous Dark Lords on Korriban preferred a much more "contained" approach to hegemonic expansionism (à la Marka Ragnos).

 

Leto -

I... think I meant the latter?

Basically, we know that the Jedi Order founded somewhere around 25,000 BBY (approx.) IIRC.
Also, it wasn't terribly long after this that the split between Jedi and Darksiders began.

Wasn't that approx. when the Darksiders found the Sith (e.g. the race) or did that occur later?

 

Ah, gotcha, sorry about that.

Yep, it had originally been established by LFL that the First Great Schism occurred around 24,500 BBY, not long after the Old Republic's founding, with the Sith Order established by Dark Jedi (Xendor purportedly being part of this group). With the NEC, though, Dan Wallace retconned this event as now having occurred circa 6,900 BBY as the Second Great Schism -- quite a leap forward in time.

The cast-out Dark Jedi fled the Republic and emerged near Korriban, and thus made first contact with the indigenous Sith species there; and then took on their species-name for their new darksider order. (...Mascots, y'know.)

Considering the timeframe of the book's release, it's very possible that Dan was clearing the decks, as it were, for the existence of the True Sith during the earlier pre-Xendor period, and for whatever new info LFL might see fit to introduce concerning them down the road; including -- obviously -- in KotOR III.

 

to understand we maybe have to look into the minds of the makers.. we as fans with all the sources in mind think inuniverse. but outside, how might they got the ideas that lead to what we have now? this might give a clue on what to expect.

maybe like with the old mandalorians, the old sith wern´t GL style enough, so what to do? they choose to make them extinct and have new older sith take the cool sith enemy role, likewise human mandalorians take the place of the reptile mandos that get extinct as well in the same timeframe.

So.. if this was their thought, and it is a big IF, then the TRUE SITH are the ancestors of the modern sith line of Palpatine and co.. and will not get wiped out by / or in the favor of the sith lines we know.

so.. these TRUE SITH... what are they?

do they want to expand? if they made the mandos go to war yes, of not, no.
they are sith, sith is a belief, they are powerful forceusers that,according to their description by Kreia and others, are far more powerful than our Jedi and Sith are. hmm.. does this mean different technology? different force powers, or facette of the force? what makes them that way?


here something to remember: Kreia says exile and revan have to leave all loves and technology behind (!!!).. no spaceship, no droids!

BINGO.. well, no tech? sounds vong to me. and goes along with the asteroid-bioship canderous encountered in the mando wars, as told in kotor 1!

so kotor true sith originally were the NJO's original invaders, powerful sith aliens? NJO was changed into VONG forceless. no sith. so kotor was changed as well.. no longer connected to the NJO what will it turn into? it sounds so far biotechnological and hating nonbio-tech. and the way kreia, exile and revan and others discuss wounds, voids in the force, and their powers, it seems to me again that they mean the vong, that cannot be found in the force and fought with it. though it sounds like vong that have "their" facette of the force and use their alternate force view with wich they can attack jedi and sith. they can feel and see us but we not them, that way.

thoughts?

so:
-biotech
-anti-technology
-those who seek them should not bring loved ones with them, => because they rever and worship the contrary? hate? loss? pain?
-void/wounds in the force
-forceusers, original true sith, sith is a believe
(-made mandos go to war)
-fight both, republic, jedi and old sith
-hidden/live in the UR

 

I must say, I rather like this idea of a "True Sith" group that predates/is separate from the Jedi. When you think about it, it makes sense that people wouldn't be able to create a pure, corruption-resistant order on the first try.

 

Another thing that we must consider when talking about these remote parts of galactic history is the availability of FTL-technology. We only know that the Rataka had hyperdrives, and most likely invented them, and that all modern hyperdrives were constructed from reverse-engineered Rataka drives. There is of course a possibility that other cultures discovered hyperspace separately in the same timeframe, but it is not something we should take for granted. When we make theories about this we should always include who had what technology when and where they did find it in the equation.

*Rakata had Force-based hyperdrives.
*Celestials had the power to move planets and fire across vast distancies, most likely hyperspace-based but still a different technology.
*The Kwa had their infinity-gates, possibly related to the Celestials tech.
*The Killiks didn't invent a thing themselves.

So, either the "True Sith" invented some FTL technology themselves or they got acess to some other civilization's invetions. OR they were the ones to invent things that others later used. If we place the Sith empire's height at about 30k BBY, wich seems likely given the data we have. We also know that they were higly apt in the Force, since Malacor V was a dark side acadamy.
Maybe the Sith invented the Force-based hyperdrives. Then created an empire and got pushed back by someone (possibly the Celestials). When they left the Rakata, who could likely have been a part of the empire, took their hyperdrive-tech and started making their own Infinite Empire.
This way we tie all the old civz. even more closely together and include the evolvation of technology.


/Charlii

 

Actually, the New Chron's map doesn't list Malachor V as a location, which makes my theory just as or more valid. Korriban and Malachor were said to be on the fringe of the True Sith Empire, not some very far away place totally separate from the main body but technically part of it (y'know, like Hawaii).

 

Technically, if the belief was untrue, the Exile wouldn't have bothered to come after her.

No, what she intended to do would have come to past should the Exile not have stopped her.

It was not an act of insanity I would think. It was more like premeditated.

 

At least I'm not the only one to see the possible connection between all of this and the Vong. Crazier things have happened, and after all things must eventually come full circle one way or another or none of this will ever truly be rectified.

It seems unlikely that these connections would not be intentional, at least to some extent or according to somebody's design...

 

That map-placement (the physical one in the book) is still canonical, as the in-game Ebon Hawk map also depicts a similarly-corresponding Unknown Regions position for Malachor, and it sitting right on the UR's edge is clearly the intention of the game's writers. That said, though, I concur with the Korriban-Malachor axis/fringe-principle, since both planets were connected to the True Sith Empire, with the empire apparently stretching from the Unknown Regions across the future Hydian Way, encompassing a bit of the Mid Rim along the way outward to where Korriban is located, on the other end of the galaxy. (There's a great deal of discussion on this topic here, from this past year.)

Clearly it was fairly gigantic in scope, and begs the major question of why it fell, or was reduced in size, in the first place. Another significant issue is, were/are the True Sith's "throneworlds" in the UR their original throneworlds, or a relocated "capital" region, similar to Bastion? Kreia's dialogue seems to give weight to them being their "ancient" homeworlds, but even relocated worlds would obviously be "ancient" by that point in time...

 

OK don't shoot me down to bad...

First of all we have the Celestials a highly developed race using organic technology and also being Force-sensitive. During their roamong through the Galaxy they come across numerous lesser civilisations all devoid of a connection to the Force being highly evolved and wanting to help these lesser developed civilisation they created midi-chlorians and seeded all known worlds with them. However the project was not a complete sucess and only a small portion of the populations gained Force-sensitivity (in some cases almost Jedi like in others more akin to fortune tellers).

As they continued to expand out into the Galaxy they discovered other races more advanced than the usual primitives they came across. Some of these races were Force-sensitive like the Rakata and possibly the Kwa, while others were technically advanced like the Gree and the Sharu.

Some of these races felt threatened and regressed technologically, but the Rakata staged border raids to try and learn the Celestials secrets and expand their own burgeoning empire.
Knowing that they must do something to turn back the attacking Rakata. To aid them in their battle they made an unlikley ally in a bizarre offshoot of their experiment, the world of Yuuzhan'tar.
Yuuzhan'tar created a civilisation geared for combat still using the organic technology of the Celestials.
This move came almost to late as their teritory was shrinking by the day. The Rakata using their artificial technology to create Centerpoint Station and the whole Corellian system to fuel the war effort.

The war continued both sides evenly matched, the Rakatans at one point using Centerpoint to create the Maw as a redout to retreat to.
Eventually the Rakatans took the upper hand and launched a massive strike against the Celestials and their allies. Knowing they were beaten the Cellestials fled to their homeworld leaving the beaten Vong and their ruined planet Yuuzhan'tar. The Vong began an exodous from their dying home planet which shortly after produced the seed that would become Zonama Sekot.

Could this mean that when the Vong began their exodous, their ships could have been boosted from the Galaxy by Centerpoint. With their navigation systems shot and in the depths of the Intergalactic Void they could have wandered for thousands of years before finally repairing/regrowing their systems before finding their way back to the GFFA. We have a possible sighting of a scout by Canderous in 3,963 BBY.

This left the Rakatans as the dominant species in the Galaxy.
The Rakatan empire flourished to great heights as we know including creating the Star Forge, but maybe the plague that helped bring around their downfall could have been artificially created by the Celestials. Also at this point seeing the Killiks as a potential theat the Celestials moved them to the UR to be more isolated.

 

I like your ideas though I´d modify them including earlier ideas by other posters and change some things.

we discuss the super cultures we know so far.. why not include some Devilworlds and Marvel stuff? we have very weird cultures and entities in those sources, very powerful superbeings. can we somehow connect them to this mess?

Also, the Vong from the GFFA and returning to it later is a good valid idea, though... to stay in continuity I´d prefer it to be Yuzhantar moving to another galaxy where the vong them evolve further, and they later follow the seed Zonama Sekot to the gffa back again to the original home of yuzhantar.

but connecting Zonama Sekots hyperdrives to the corellian system architects and their tech is a great idea.

 

Erm. The NEC placed the Sith Schism some thousands of years from the Great Hyperspace war. So whatever happens, the Sith Empire was founded when the Republic already existed.

Whether or not the Rakatans succeeded the Celestials or were the Celestials, is not something we can answer, unless someone finds a Rakatan computer with intact datacore on galactic history.

 

There are multiple Sith Empires:

1. The "True Sith Empire" existed tens of thousands of years before the founding of the Old Republic, and its remnants lie somewhere in the Unknown Regions, where Revan journeyed to defeat them before they could strike against the Republic itself. Its member worlds included Korriban and Malachor V, and the Sith species from Tales of the Jedi are likely connected to them in some unknown fashion. Some Sith artifacts date back 100,000 years, and may very well belong to the True Sith Order.



2. The "First Sith Empire" (so-called) was founded circa 6,900 BBY by exiled Dark Jedi during the Second Great Schism, and was the empire ruled over by Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, and many other Dark Lords, centered on Ziost. It crumbled during the Great Hyperspace War, and finally collapsed altogether in 4,990 BBY.



3. The Sith Empire revived by Revan and Malak in 3,959 BBY encompassed a large quantity of the known galaxy, and exceeded the First Sith Empire's scope by a significant order of magnitude. Its capital was Korriban, and it eventually fell at the end of the Second Sith War. Whether its expansion was begun after Exar Kun's downfall or during Malak and Revan's reign isn't yet clear.



4. Finally, there was the "New Sith Empire," which ruled more of the galaxy than any other Sith regime before it, during the Republic Dark Age (1,466 BBY - 1,000 BBY). Its capital world was Roon, and its last vestiges were eradicated by the Jedi Order following the Seventh Battle of Ruusan.

Several Sith Empires, even more numerous Sith Orders (not dealt with above); some of which predate the Old Republic, and still others which virtually destroyed it. There's an entire Essential Guide contained in this subject alone, methinketh...