The Sustainable Sith Society - Is Kesh a Good Idea?

Something's been nagging at me for the last couple FotJ books - when the Sith are essentially a galactic army, with numerous planets from which to cull new recruits, a situation where they sweep through the galaxy for generations, growing and growing, is more or less plausible. But is it realistic that an all-Sith population as small as the Lost Tribe, even bolstered by the occasional Force-sensitive Keshiri, could really survive under Sith doctrine for five thousand years, without collapsing upon itself? At the very least, the smaller talent pool of Force sensitives, I'd think, would drastically lower their average power level as the centuries rolled by.

And more importantly, even, than whether it could be justified logically - isn't it a bad idea for the core themes of the franchise to show that the Sith way could produce a sustainable, functional society over such a long period of time? Isn't the Dark Side, left unchecked, supposed to essentially consume itself? Or for all their bluster, has the Lost Tribe in reality mellowed out a bit in favor of more pragmatic governance? Yaru Korsin seemed to be a nudge toward this concept, but by the time of FotJ, things don't seem terribly different from the usual Sith business.

Disclosure: I'm still in the first third of Abyss. If there's info from later on that has a critical bearing on this discussion, I don't mind being spoiled, but otherwise, please tread lightly if at all possible.

 

Yes, it's essentially what happened with the One Sith, the original Dark Lords of the Sith species on Korriban, the Brotherhood of Darkness, Revan's Sith, the Sith in Karness Murr's time & all the darksiders that gravitated around Vader & the Emperor during the dark times. Darksiders & Sith are not a virus, they can live together just like any other sensible & sapient group of people. Just like Mandos even.

The Sith/Keshiri mixed Lost Tribe works because non-Banite Sith have always survived this way, hidden in the far reaches of space & rising from a massive defeat by either the Jedi or themselves, the Sith always find a way to survive.

It's also a weird flipping side of the coin. The real Sith were monstrous beasts enslaved by rogue force users. Kesh Sith are the most beautiful people in the GFFA...enslaved by rogue force users.

 

Really until Ship shows up on Kesh the Sith Tribe are a pale imitation of what a true Sith is. That is because a lot of their teachings have been lost through time and they have just become a force sect that uses their emotions to fuel their force-connection. Is it the dark-side? I'd have to say yes, but the tribe members only get corrupted when they reach the Master or Grandmaster level.

When Ship lands on planet, they start learning techniques that they had forgotten overtime and they start falling into the problems that all the other Sith Orders that have more than two members fall into, the backstabbing and such.

I haven't read the E-Books so I don't know how many Sith were on the Omen when it first crashed, but I think there was a lot of inter-breeding in those first few hundred years or so, but the Sith made sure that their DNA was most prominent, they wouldn't want to be fully integrated with the locals when the Sith Emperor came around to save them. Then once the DNA pool got big enough they started moving back to having only Human relations with the occasional mix to keep the pool from growing too small. Hence why you have the occasional Kesh that is strong enough in the force that the Sith have to train them.

Except they aren't enslaved. They believe that the Sith are their great protectors that will protect them from the destroyer(s). So they willingly gave themselves to the Sith and are now just in a lower caste then them.

 

I won't actually do my rebuttal. Instead, I will allow a better author to rebuttal for me. In simple terms, it's always been the case the Sith can have a sustainable society. Assuming the Sith of Kesh are different from the other Sith slime though is wrong, though. We've had many ancient Sith Empires.

This, is how these empires function though.

 

Heh. "1984 posted".

Honestly, as much as I love 1984 I kind of reject the concept of dystopia IRL - and utopia, for that matter. But regardless of whether or not they're plausible in reality, you don't think it's against the message of SW to show that a dystopia, if indeed that's what Kesh is, could work so well? Especially when the Sith are, as I've understood them, supposed to represent an evil beyond the kind that's led to real empires and dictatorships.

 

In real life, Dystopias and Utopias are a matter of degrees. Show the United States to a bunch of Medieval peasants and they'd wonder what you were complaining about in a country with very little chance of you dying from plague, famine, or random guys running around stabbing you in the head. Compared to Stalinist Russia which, of course, is pretty much close to Hell on Earth in some places.

Fundamentally, the important thing to remember about the Sith is they're introduced as the secret leaders of Space Nazi Germany. There's nothing really "beyond" that in George Lucas' viewpoint, which is a very human evil controlled by an inhuman monster. The people of Kesh are running a ruthless apartheid where they have the local population of the planet enslaved and treated as their personal sex-toys and slave boys. I actually prefer this because it shows that the Sith are THAT inhuman, but their inhumanity is achievable by people in Real Life.

The Ancient Sith Empire was essentially just the God-Emperor oriental despotisms (note that's the term Alexander the Great and the Romans used for Persia and similar lands) taken to the 11. George COULD have shown the Sith as a bunch of inhuman monsters like the Orcs or Yuuzhan Vong but chose instead to basically say "Yes, they more or less turn us into exactly what we've been in the past."

 

Very good points, but I would disagree with your idea of enslaving the local population...

To me it's not a matter of Sith signaling out foreigners, local species, etc - it's just a matter of controlling those with less power. The Sith would do the same with other less powerful Sith that they crash-landed on Kesh with - ...and in the book there are a number of powerful Keshiri that hold high positions - and I would argue that if one was powerful enough, he/she would lead.

 

It's a Meritocracy, you'll only get as far as you are strong no matter your race. Which is different from other Sith because these Sith have had to adapt otherwise they'd have died off. Because you can't do to many evil things when you are cooped up on a planet where you are cohabiting pleasantly with the natives. These Sith aren't evil in the classical sense of Sith evil until Ship lands on planet and they start to plot the destruction of the Jedi Order. Otherwise they are just a Dark-Side sect like the Jensaarai before their original leader was killed.

 

The whole point of a Utopia is that is has nothing to do with real life.

That's not differant at all. The Sith has always had racists, but they still respect power above everything else and would follow anyone who could kick their ass (but only for as long as they remain able to) no matter their species.

 

Interesting theory C19, but I don't think that reflects what we have actually seen in the daily life of any of the Sith Empires, except for the Galactic Empire.

Which is admittedly not; none of them are covered in much detail, most only appear in one story, and most are simply armed rebellions against the Republic than true political entities.

Still, the ancient Sith Empire (see, this is why I find it annoying all Sith Empires are called...well, Sith Empires. It is hard to make clear which one you are talking about.) struck me as large and large a feudalistic society. Specifically the Holy Roman Empire: A group of powerful lords each with his (or possibly her, with Red Sith, who can tell?) who get together in a big council and elect who will lead them.
Not that a feudalistic society is all fun and games mind you, but even then the Sith Lords seemed like people than the cackling evil overlords we see later. For example, they insist that it is the Republic who are monsters after they think the Republic assassinated one of their respected leaders and were planning an invasion.
(Which is another reason I rather disturbed by the brutality of the Republic counter attack. The Sith were essentially tricked into war, which is more than you can say for a lot of the races the Republic went to war with and didn't wipe out.)

The Lost Tribe seem to be more like the Ancient Sith: a society that either subscribes to Feudalism or is maybe even just a chieftainship. The people there seem like people; they love, they hate, they dream...but they don't seem dedicated towards power for power's sake. I don't think even their racism is that damning, as there is huge difference from "second class citizen with possibility of enhancement" and the completely monstrous actions done by the Galactic Empire...which grew out of the existing racial tensions of the Republic mind you.

 

I find Kesh fascinating, personally; I'm not sure whether it's intended as a cheerful display of American prejudices ("elites are EVIL, look how they hold back the masses from freedom, and how vain and self-absorbed they are, and how they tell people what to think; just as well we're not like that, eh, reader?"), or if it's something much more complex and interesting..

(In the end, are Sith just ordinary, not unlike any other or political leaders, compelled to act in certain ways by the realities of government and their own individual balance of ideals, prejudices, empathy and ideology? Palpatine was not all-powerful, and I'm sure Thrawn pointed that out to him, even if no-one else did.

The subtle tensions of class and gender, and the emphasis on how Keshri society largely puts them behind its facade of order and optimism and socially-acceptable attractiveness, are things that I found very interesting; but is the Hogwarts echo deliberate?

And what do the Sabers do, for 5,000 years? Conquering the planet seems to have happened relatively quick, or is that a myth? Are there civil wars between the Sith Lords? Sabers gone bad who try to become tyrants, warlords or brigands? That would crack me up... or is their military emphasis connected to the fact that they're a small "colonial" élite? How would that be manifested? Massive Keshri revolts? Or are there simply internal struggles like guild feuds and pirate gangs to put down? )...

Of course, maybe it's just a simplistic and cliché "villain culture" drawing on American's vocabulary of "evil elitist colonial foreigner" tropes, rather than a more complex portrait of people being human... but you're probably right that it can only work as the latter of those two options.

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Personally, I'd agree with both interpretations of the Ancient Sith Empire.

I feel the Kesh Sith are what they are: descended from the knights of the Sith Empire rather than the lords.

In contrast, the true Council of Lords was where all the cackling evil backstabbing fruitcakes congregated, see Great Hyperspace War.

The Omenites' "empire" had the benefit of not having possessed the knowledge that drove most Dark Lords completely batshavit crazy. In that respect, I'd largely put it down to (and I fully accept this is a huge generalisation) the basic notion that power corrupts. The Omenites are able to live "normal" lives because they lack that all powerful super nova invoking supremacy that drove their ancient masters to anarchy. Basically I do not consider Lady Rhea up there with Lord Ragnos.

I kind of see them as the equivalent to "What if a bunch of [insert dark side adepts here] had founded their own empire?" The answer? Well, it depends. A bunch of Emperor's Hands probably means Lord Shadowspawn x 50, but it could also mean a bunch of Mara Jades too. A bunch of Royal Guards could either mean the Crimson Empire with a few more Carnor Jaxes or it could mean something more akin to the Fel Empire but instead led by a bunch of Kir Kanoses.

Whereas the true Sith Empire suffered from being led by a bunch of Palpatines. The Omenites were fortunate not to have one when they crashed.

Which is why it interests me that Saes on his own with just one ship full will be a threat for a single novel compared to how the Lost Tribe must surely number several orders of magnitude more than just the one crew they started off with. I'm unsure whether to expect Saes to have been the Sith Master in charge of the full battlegroup or not. The only feeling I really got from Korsin was he didn't trust a Jedi-turned-Sith.

 

The main thing I liked about Omen was that it gave us a workable Sith society. That book gave the impression (to me, at least) that the Sith were basically acting as a Force sensitivity-based aristocracy over a conquered population of Keshiri. Not enslaving them or going all genocide-happy, but just ruling. Omen also gave me the impression that the Lost Tribe had indeed mellowed out over their time on Kesh, and rather than constantly trying to kill each other, had a more structured system for advancement based on merit that avoided unnecessary deaths.

Basically, the Lost Tribe were Sith with the most glaring flaws ironed out, which is really the only way they could have survived for so long on a small, relatively primitive world. This isn't really an example of the normal Sith philosophy being doable, but an example of one group of Sith wising up enough to drop their collective Villain Ball before they killed each other, and then going on to make a functioning society based on a more moderate philosophy.

 

To be honest, I've seen zero sign that the Sith of Kesh are any different from the Normal Sith Empire.

The one of Darth Revan and Malak at the Sith Academy
The one of the Ancient Sith Empire
The one of Exar Kun's Empire.

They're the same slime that they always were.

 

To a certain extent I feel that comes down to not only who they formed out of, but also their motives at the time. When the Exiles enslaved the Sith, they'd just been chased out of the Republic because they wanted to raise an army of the undead and become powerful enough to live forever. Whereas when the crew of the Omen crash landed, what was their motivation in particular? Korsin didn't seem to have much respect for the Sith Lords or the "tentacle face" who led them... he was just a soldier, not a sorcerer.

The purpose of their war (as it had presumably been sold to Korsin) seemed less about raising a legion of Korriban zombies than just taking revenge... for what? Did guys like Korsin know what it even was? If he disliked Saes for being a former Jedi, it strikes me they'd forgotten "their roots" in the Jedi Order. But, of course, Korsin didn't have roots in the Jedi Order, the Tapani Sith joined later, so they were just the footsoldiers fighting the Exiles' descendants' war, having been indoctrinated into simply believing "Sith Empire = Good; Republic = Bad".

 

And this is exactly the question which future Lost Tribe e-books will be addressing. It was the first question I asked, and so the story asks it.

 

I'm more curious about how the Lost Sith society will be with Abeloth amongst them.

 

Thanks for these e-things, JJM, man. Now I can't wait for the end of the series sos I can reads the whole thing at one in a book I buy from B&N. Sorrs I ever doubted you man, you are a great author.

 

You are just repeating yourself without explaining anything. What is exactly is it that they do that is so abominable? And if your first impluse is to say "everything", just pick the most important thing.

Additionally, what have they done that makes them worse than the good guys here?

 

I'm now utterly confused.

Are you asking about what the Old Sith Empires did that was so abominable or what? My point is that we've seen no sign that the backstabbing, ruthless, Dark Side worshiping Ke****es are any nicer than any other Sith. Their first actions upon gaining space travel is to murder everyone who stands in their way of establishing a space fleet.

The previous Sith weren't cartoon supervillains. They were a ruthless expansionist Empire that was a Dark Side theocracy.

Kesh appears to be the same. We also only see it from the perspective of Vestara. I remind you, this is like judging British class divisions from A Little Princess's first half before she loses all of her money.

 

Awesome. See? JJM gets where I'm coming from.

 

I think the question is valid, but I don't think it's new; the original Sith Empire from which the Lost Tribe sprang prompts the same question. So if you look at the fact that the Lost Tribe is an extension/remnant of the Sith Empire, you've got seven thousand continuous years of functional Sith society. How does that work?

Ultimately, I think the fact is that it's only functional as far as existing goes. The Sith ways can persist, but they have to be tempered by a bit of enlightened self-interest to really survive ("If I start a big war in a realm this small, I'm not going to have anything left to rule."), and they're not going to result in anything like a sane, genuinely functional society. It's not a place anyone would ever want to live. It lasts, but it's a broken society -- treachery and murder and slavery and spending your whole life trying to avoid assassination. Oh, hey, it's Hapes. So I don't think it runs counter to Star Wars ideals that it doesn't self-destruct, as the fact is that it's already a self-destructive society in a more subtle way. Society revolves around trying to off the best and brightest, enormously costly internal conflict, squabbling that ultimately sabotages any attempt to really accomplish something. "Your progressive ways will ruin the Sith Empire, Naga Sadow!"

 

They're really Sith Lite, IMO.

My question is, if they are as strong as they think, why didn't any force sensitive, esp Palpatine, sense a disturbance? You'd think someone like Yoda or Mace, or other Jedi in 5000 years flying around nearby, could feel such a thing.

 

I refer you to Ishizu Ishtar from Yu-Gi-Oh: The Abridged Series: "Because the writers hadn't thought of them yet."

 

I killed this thread cause everyone repeats after me, ha ha ha. Lost Tribe Sith are hardly different from other un-Banite's.