The Thrawn Trilogy, Dark Empire, and other series' chronological placements

The post-ROTJ EU wasn't planned out in broad strokes until the Yuuzhan Vong War, I believe. Thus, even at the beginning there was difficulty dealing with Tom Veitch and Dark Empire, and Tim Zahn and the Thrawn Trilogy, as well as LFL. Creative visions got compromised, ego was involved, I don't want to take sides, whatever. In any case, the TTT was made so it was set before Dark Empire. Some have said that it doesn't fit very well.

What do you feel about the placement of those two series. Is the canon ordering correct, or could/should it have been changed so that Dark Empire occurred first, and then Thrawn's Campaign? Also, what about the other series that followed? Personally, I think it took way too long for Courtship of Prince Leia to take place, but then again I don't even like the idea of gambling away deeds of planets or the overpowered nature of the Gun of Command, so what do I know.

 

I'd prefer that Dark Empire never happened.

 

It'd be kinda hard to move them, since the TT has the birth of Jacen and Jaina who are the elder children and DE-EE has the birth of Anakin who is the young one.

 

Well, this isn't supposed to be a "what-if" thread, but if TTT had been placed after DE as planned (or so I've heard it was planned), then there of course would be some changes to things such as the Jedi twins.

 

West End Games' Dark Empire Sourcebook has some nice transition-points between DE and TTT...

 

You are correct. Dark Empire was originally planned to be placed about a year after RotJ, but Zahn refused to reference it in his novels. I've heard several reasons for this such as Zahn disliked comics or he hated the idea of Palpatine returning, but whatever his reasons Dark Empire was reworked so it could be placed after the Thrawn Trilogy. Also as Eddie said there is some great stuff in the Dark Empire sourcebook to fill in the gaps. Though unfortunately it's not very common and certain Palpatine loving posters love to quote it in such context as to make Thrawn seem like Palpatine's puppet.

As for the reasoning why the period between the end of the Marvel comics and CoPL is so empty I honestly have no idea. The main heroes get some cameos in the X-wing comics and novels, but compared to the rest of their lives it's a blank slate.

 

Well, of course it makes more sense if it was laid out as originally planned, but unfortunately, the EU is a little like a house right now, and the Thrawn Trilogy is brick one and Dark Empire brick two in the foundation. Even if they're a little crooked, you can't take them out and reset them now without bringing the whole house down.

 

I think the problem was that there was a lack of communications between the people involved in the books and comics.

I'm not sure when the Dark Empire team heard about the Thrawn trilogy, but from memory, Zahn only learned about DE a significant way into the development of Heir to the Empire, and maybe even after the first novel was complete.

The problem wasn't just that DE clashed chronologically with Zahn: in its original placing just after RotJ, it would have imported a complex and then unpublished backstory behind the "movie continuation" of the novels.

Understandably, the decision was initially taken to ignore it in the novel continuity.

It seems to have been Kevin J. Anderson's idea to slot it into continuity after the Thrawn trilogy - it was integrated after he'd written a 30-page outline of JA3.

However, the earliest actual references to DE in canon are in The Dark Empire Sourcebook, in 1993, which is the first source I know of to place the series in 10 ABY, and to bridge from the events of the Thrawn trilogy to the start of Dark Empire.

It's quite interesting to realise that, by publication-date, DESB actually precedes the entire post-RotJ Expanded Universe, except for Zahn and DE themselves (and, ah, the Jedi Prince series )....

This was later reinforced by Jedi Search and the revisions to the Dark Empire tpb in 1994.

***

As to retcons, the trouble is that the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire are the two most seminal stories in the post-Jedi timeline, perhaps in the entire Expanded Universe. They DO fit together within the current timeline, and I'm yet to see any canon evidence that the Palpatine on Byss wasn't actually just an ordinary clone, engineered by Imperial extremists (which is an option that I think helps DE in its current timeline placing).

That said, if someone wanted to do a "reboot" or an Infinities novel/comic, they'd be the two most obvious places to start AFTER.

Heck, get Zahn to write his original sequel plan, and Veitch/Kennedy to develop the extended version of the later DE series, as they originally intended?

Or, just go back to somewhere in the NJO?

And as Specter of the Past showed, you don't need a reboot to re-organize the readers' perceptions of the timeline in a much more positive direction! Let's see that Zahn novel about the Empire of the Hand against the Yuuzhan Vong...?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Does the Starwars.com Databank count?

 

Or the fact that the personality remained the same between clones and had knowledge that only the original Emperor should?

 

The Emperor in DE acted rather strangely, considering Sidious's patience and meticulous planning in the Prequel Trilogy.

I'm currently working on a fanfic with the TTT placed after DE, which is still in its original place, but I digress.

 

He acted strangely, yes, but the explanation that he's pretty much insane by that point works for me. Being basically a discorporeal spirit kept alive through sheer hatred and willpower for a while and then carried around in the body of a crippled, crazy Emperor's Hand until he could transfer himself into a clone body seems like it could do the trick, even to Palpatine. Thus, it's him, but being killed at the end of RotJ made him a lot less cunning and patient and a lot more "I need to regain everything I have lost and do it right now".

 

Also, recall that Dark Empire was in the planning stages back when Marvel had the comic license. See here for one of Marvel's Dark Empire promos, from 1990. Note that it mentions Han and Leia getting married, which implies that it was indeed intended to be set closer to RotJ than its current placement. I'd be curious to know when that was changed, and if it was changed because of TTT or some other reason.

But certain story elements from the final version are already present. For example, Fett is there, there's some incredibly ugly World Devastator, and Palpatine's face is looming over Han and Leia. Luke training Jedi was pushed to Dark Empire II, but it probably stems from the Marvel-era concept.

I don't know why there are Ixlls displayed so prominently, though.

 

I doubt that was ever the plan . . . I think it was always intended to be a part of this unified Expanded Universe they were creating, and so when problems (of whatever sort) kept it from going before The Thrawn Trilogy, it was simply moved after.

It seems the original comics did mention the Thrawn Trilogy in the endnotes, too; see this Hyperspace source material.

If I'm remembering correctly, not according to Anderson; I seem to recall him saying he was advised by Lucasfilm to include Dark Empire stuff, making him revise his description of Coruscant among other things. Alas, after much looking, I can't find the place I read that.

Well, unless you count Dark Empire itself.

And the Heir to the Empire and Dark Force Rising sourcebooks, and, IIRC, The Politics of Contraband.

 

You have read Dark Empire, right? We see Palpatine's force ghost leaving his body and heading into another one. I really don't think it can be disputed that it's him. You don't like that Palpatine was resurrected. Fine. That's your personal opinion. That it is not him his utter fanon.

 

Patient...calculating...sinister. No, he was definitely in character in Dark Empire. In Empire's End he was a stark raving luny, but you can chalk that up to the bad lazy writing (out of universe) or the fact that he was being driven mad from all the times he had to pull himself through hell and back into the world of the living, and the poisoned clone he was currently inhabiting.

 

I don't doubt it's Palpatine, but there's a difference between transferring between clones and having your body thrown down a shaft and melted in a reactor core and floating about as an aimless spirit - it's called "being killed". Palpatine of DE is a Sith spirit who is bouncing between Palpatine clones (and it's never stated but it's clear from the nature of clones that he's essentially murdering himself over and over). Maybe he would've been "reborn" if he latched onto a powerful Force-sensitive child, but I have to think that the Sith Lords really aren't known for sharing - I don't think it's a surprise that their "advice" led to his utter destruction.
That's why I don't feel Dark Empire diminishes what Vader did. DE Palpatine was just another dead Sith overstaying his welcome.

 

Apparently, you've never read the Dark Empire handbook or Dark Empire Sourcebook, then. The Emperor had been very, very patient, and meticulously planning and orchestrating events to his advantage for the last five years before Dark Empire began. . .

Dark Empire, the comic, was the RotS Yoda-Sidious cut-loose moment - cackling madness and all.

 

The databank entry on Anankin Solo states the following:

In the early 1990s, when the Expanded Universe of Star Wars fiction was exploding with new tales, many projects were being developed concurrently. As such, authors would have to be flexible to incorporate events developed by others, since the novels and comics in the works took place all over the Star Wars timeline.

When author Kevin J. Anderson began work on the Jedi Academy Trilogy, he built upon the continuity developed by Timothy Zahn. At first, Anderson didn't know he'd have to add in the major events of Tom Veitch and Cam Kennedy's Dark Empire comic series -- events that included a resurrected Emperor Palpatine, the devastation of Coruscant, and the conception of a third Solo child!


What's your reasoning for suggesting that it was Anderson's idea to slot DE into the timeline at 6 ABE, Thrawn? I kind of doubt it --- I'm guessing that it was forced upon Tom Veitch by circumstance after Zahn said "Sorry, but I won't have it taking place prior to 5 ABE." After all, Dark Empire II features Jacen & Jaina as one-year old infants. Granted, Dark Empire II came out after the Jedi Academy Trilogy was all said and done, but KJA was clearly privy to how the entire Dark Empire saga would end.

It doesn't seem that he knew how Empire's End would end, though, until after he had completed his first book of the trilogy, as no mention of Kam Solusar is made until Dark Apprentice. Man, it would have been crazy to be an EU fan back then.

I own all fourteen installments of the Dark Empire saga in original-issue form (go eBay!), and the editorial responses in the letters columns towards the end of DEII begin telling fans that the DE saga takes place at 6ABE, one year after the events of the Thrawn Trilogy.

It's a bit puzzling reading Dark Empire, as though it takes place in 6ABE, it was written to take place immediately after Return of the Jedi (the New Republic being called the Rebel Alliance, Ewoks fighting on Coruscant, etc). I first read it in 2004, and didn't yet know any of the behind-the-scenes information about it --- I had thought that it was originally intended to take place 6ABE, and had been published with the events of the Thrawn Trilogy in mind.

You'd think that DEII would have contained more references to the events of the Thrawn trilogy, but really, all that it has is a brief cameo by Jacen, Jaina, and Winter. Edit 2: In fact, doesn't DEII still refer to the New Republic as the Rebel Alliance in every instance?

Regardless, DE still fits pretty nicely into continuity, and is a fun read. I think I owe it a reread, in fact.

Edit: Do we have a source stating that Zahn refused to accept DE as pre-Heir to the Empire? I could have sworn that I've read it somewhere other than a forum before. But is this definitely more than just speculation?

 

A comment like this makes me realize just how long I've been at this EU stuff.

The first two SW books I bought were The Last Command and Jedi Search at Sam's Club. Then I was buying the issues of DEII off the racks, and hunting down DEI. I found it in TPB format along with TOTJ: The Collection... now known as TOTJ: Knights of the Old Republic. When I finally realized that TLC and JS were from different storylines I had to hunt down HTTE and DFR, then I waited in eager anticipation for the rest of the JAT. I don't know what happened, but somehow I missed out on DEII #6(yeah, what?) and Empire's End #1... though I got EE #2. I still don't have EE #1 or DEII #6... This is naughty talk and I think I'm going to get the DEII TPB special edition with EE included. That's besides the point.

I was an EU fan back then. I was like 14.

 

How is this even a topic? I don't understand...the chronology is the way it is cause it was what they did to make it work after the fact. And as clearly indicated, many of us have spent better then 15 years holding this order in our brains, liked or dlsliked.

It's a little late for this can of worms to be opened.

 

I'm actually at this point in the timeline in my first chronological trip throuigh the EU (I'm two thirds of the way through with Isard's Revenge). I've actually already read all of the Dark Empire series in TPB form before I started reading the novels but I now have all of the single issues, so when I go through it (and after just finishing the Thrawn Trilogy), I will be able to go through as a new reader and compare the two timeline-wise.

Someone said earlier that Palpatine had been planning the events of Dark Empire for years. In The Thrawn Trilogy (one year before Dark Empire), Leia and Mara still pick up what seems to be Palpatine's presence around the forest moon of Endor. Maybe it was just a remnant of his spirit left behind, and he was already in a new body at this point, but it made Leia black-out. Any speculation?

 

Reread that promo; the marriage happened before the series started.

 

That was the psychic bloodstain from his death.

 

DESB, p.37: "This time was so abrupt and unexpected...so unpleasant that it felt as if, perhaps, a part of his being had been left in space over Endor."