The Unbiased Potenium, Sith, and Jedi Philosophy thread

This is a thread that is dedicated to a shocking and dangerous principle, seperating the fact from fiction for the Potenium and Jedi philosophy. A lot of people have latched onto the Potenium and alot of people have been adamantly attacking it. I think that a lot of people have been filtering both the Jedi view as well as the Potenium view through their own lens though rather than simply taking what the EU has stated though.

like the Unbiased Mandalorian discussion, this thread is where we talk about the three philosophies without necessarily going to the "canon backs me up, nyah nyah" feeling that has been pervasive or the "You just don't understand the philosophy" retort.

However, the requirements are going to be a lot more stringent. You have to pretty much back up your opinion with a canon source and the posts about it rather than simply run it through a filter. Basically, explain how you got your opinion from this resource.

To further the issue, game mechanics do not count. DSP and LSP can theoretically reflect the attitude shifting for dramatic effect.

Also (Thank you McEwok), remember the Potenium isn't Buddhism nor is The Jedi Knighthood Christianity. These things only color the issue and make genuine discussusion that much more difficult.

 

My view....

The Potenium and the Jedi views of the Force are distinctly different but unfortunately, a lot of individuals bring baggage with them that colors their attempts to view both sides of the issue.

The Potenium view is that there is no Dark Side of the Force. If we assume Vergere and the teachers on Zonoma Seskot are teaching it, essentially there is no such thing as evil. There is only ignorant individuals and unbalanced individuals. There is only the Will of the Force and the Force is perfection.

Distilled to its most fundamental aspects, this is the Potenium. It differs from Darth Sidious' view because he doesn't believe the Force has a will and the Force is basically just magic.

The Jedi Knighthood believe the Force is somewhat 'corrupted' by free will, according to Luke, and thus a Dark Side was created where individuals go against the will of the Force. They believe this is evil and must be stopped. The individuals who serve the Dark Side from street thugs to the Sith being enemies of life.

False Doctrines of Belief you'll see on the Boards

* The Potenium DO NOT believe in an internal Dark Side. They believe all things are part of the Force and urges to 'correct' behavior are part of the Forces will.

* The Jedi DO NOT believe the Dark Side controls your actions in a literal sense. It's only in the sense anger and hatred can cloud your judgement.

* The Potenium Do not believe in calling on both sides of the Force for power, they do not believe there is a distinction.

My sources for this viewpoint are surprisingly Mathew Stover's view in Shatterpoint, Traitor, and Revenge of the Sith the novelization. Mace Windu is surprisingly clear that his view of the Dark Side is the very 'natural' things that Vergere feels are perfectly normal. Desire, Anger, Fear, and the like are NOT rejected as being part of the mystical energy field of the Dark Side but accepted as part of human nature (and then we remember that the Dark Side as described by Luke Skywalker in The Unifying Force where while its possible it is different from the original Jedi view I'm inclined to think the Free Will giving rise to the Dark Side is the invention of Luke).
Mace Windu's views of the Dark Side seem to line up with Lukes that the Dark Side is evil. Not that it personally is a part of evil but that it is a synonym for the state of being and the action.

(I'm of the mind that the seperation between the external and the internal for the Dark Side is a meaningless distinction for a Jedi since they view their actions as simultaneously their own and part of the Force)

In other words, the Jedi are surprisingly humanistic.

Rogue Planet's description of the Force as followed by the Potenium is one where we don't see the statement "They don't believe in a Dark Side" it's "They don't believe in evil." While Vergere in Traitor never outright states that there's no such thing as evil. Her distaste for the Yuuzhan Vong's actions are more in an academic nature than that of a literal disgust. Jacen talks about teaching them and that they are merely excessive in their actions.

I dub the "Will of the Force" as paramount to their actions because of Jacen in The Killik Trilogy (as I call it) seem paramount to his following the Will of the Force as the ultimate need of his. I tend to view him, like Luke, as the spiritual successor of the Potenium and thus insightful in their viewpoints.

The key point of the Sith's philosophy is expressed well by Palpatine Revenge of the Sith to Anakin in a moment that I have no reason to take as incorrect in that he says "I'm afraid I don't believe in the Will of the Force" and also Cloak of Deception where the Emperor to be says that the Sith do not believe in the Light or the Dark. This seems at odds with the Emperor's statements later but it seems that Palpatine might either have changed his view or instead believes in a somewhat Anton Levay Satanist view that what the Jedi view as 'evil' i

 

I think it is necessary to note that the potentium is not the Grey Philosphy that Vergere, Jacen, Kreia, Bindo and possibly revan used.

The potentium is more of a finished doctrine whereas the above are more of an intuitive an exploratory philosphy that doesn't claim all the answers just believes that light and dark are just words. To paraphrase.

 

I think on some level each character's choices are seperate.

The Potenium isn't a Grey jedi philosophy, I'd liken it instead to Hyper-White and the believer thinks that no wrong is really done. It's also strongly predestination based I would think.

Jacen and Vergere I tend to think of as the iconic Potenium users.

Jolee Bindo was a 'realist' Jedi Knight even if he rejected that label for himself. Jolee's self esteem issues aside, he still believed strongly in the Dark Side and the Light Side merely that it was premature to label things as good or evil. A equivalent would be a Catholic Monk whom had severe issues by the dogma.

His views of the Grey seem fairly superficial honestly.

Kreia on the other hand isn't a believer in Light and Dark but a Maltheist whom believed the Force was evil and needed to be destroyed.

 

You know, maybe Kreia has a point.

The force is evil and must be destroyed.

Lightside - Uses the force, but controls it so that it doesn't control your actions most of the time.

Dark Side - Let the force in as much as you can. We all know what happens when you do that.

So the Force is really evil.

Mu

 

Possibly, though the implication is that the Force is what you make of it.

I also think you could also argue.

Light Side- Let the Force control you.

Dark Side- Control the Force with your emotions.

 

Well, first I'll talk about my beliefs regarding the Sith philosophy, as laid out in the movies and seemingly backed up by many sources in the EU. The first and foremost belief among the Sith seems to be: the Strong rule the Weak. The Sith assume that those who are most capable are those who can prove it on their opponents' bodies. Thus the reoccurence throughout history of single Sith Lords who rule the others as dictators before their power is successfully challenged. It is akin to the Mandalorian tradition in this way.

Where it diverges from the Mandalorian tradition, though, is in its total "ends justify the means" paradigm. Among the Mandalorians, at least a semblance of honor is maintained; backstabbing is discouraged, worthy opponents are treated with respect and a modicum of mercy (quick deaths, etc.), and the use of non-hand-held weapons (i.e. chemical warfare, as evinced by Ghez Hokan's reaction in Hard Contact) that kill indiscriminately are considered dishonorable. The Sith, though, view any and all methods as worthy of a successor, whether it's direct confrontation of the reigning Lord, as seen in KotOR II against Darth Traya, or killing him in his sleep, as Darth Sidious claims to have done to Darth Plagueis. Indeed, clever, malevolent plots are encouraged; how else is one to embrace the full depths of the Dark side?

The second belief of the Sith logically follows from the first. "From Strength comes Order." The Sith are not harbingers of chaos or bringers of utter destruction (although many have gone insane and followed this path). Rather, their machinations are devoted to a single end: bringing the universe under their control. Having accepted that only the Strong should rule, and believing themselves to be the Strong, the most obvious course of action is to take power in order to set the universe right. Case in point: Darth Revan. Falling to the Dark side and becoming the reigning Sith Lord, he learned of a threat from the ancient Sith empire. His first course of action? Take over the Republic, in order to "prepare it" correctly and put it into the hands of the Strong. It can also be claimed that Palpatine truly believed that his New Order was the natural, right state of the universe; however, conflicting evidence abounds as to whether Palpatine worked for the higher ideal of Order or simply for his own gain.

The Jedi are not, as many believe, diametrically oppposed to the Sith in ideology. Both seek to preserve Order; both wish to save the universe, sometimes from the very beings who inhabit it. Where they differ is in their understanding of the Force which gives both their power. According to the Tales of the Jedi comic series, the first people to harness the power of the Force used it as the Sith did, in order to augment their own power. Stories tell of the Jedi Order evolving from a plethora of organizations dedicated to the study and proper usage of the Force. These people believed that using the Force to increase one's own power over others in such a way led to much more violence and death than it prevented. Over the millenia, the Jedi Order refined itself, becoming more and more devoted to the Force. One of their key concepts was surrender: surrender to the will of the Force, and it would do what was right for itself.

It cannot be argued as to which Order succeeded most in its aims. The Jedi were there to support the founding of the Republic, the greatest instrument for galactic peace ever seen, and later became its backbone. The Sith, by contrast, have tried several times to establish their rule, most recently with Palpatine's Empire. Each was short-lived; even the New Sith Wars were inconclusive, with the Republic hanging on and the Sith's hold on what systems they gained apparently tenuous (although little information exists on the New Sith Wars). And each coincided with a period of extreme galactic unrest, in which billions, if not trillions, of people lost their lives. This could be due to the fact that the Jedi were already "entrenched" i

 

Ironically, as seductive as this viewpoint may be that Anakin was consumed by a few bad choices. In truth, the aim seems to be that Anakin's slide into the Dark Side was gradual and portrayed as the product of numerous choices that eroded his morality.

It's easy to say "Anakin was a good man" and it's accurate that he was a good man. It's also accurate to say that he was one tormented by hatred of the Tusken Raiders and other 'murderers' (with a serious case of denial and repressed self-loathing).

Was pride and vain (covering up for horrible self esteem issues). Was a believer in force and control over diplomacy along with other unsteady answers. Plus, was unhealthily devoted to the Cult of Personality that was Palpatine's friendship.

Hell, he was even overly ambitious.

The "tools of the Dark Side" seem to be the very same things that exist as the "tools of the Devil" in our world rather than any difference between them. Anakin didn't need to be possessed, his perceptions were unaltered (Stover says the Dragon was just Anakin's own fear) at least anymore than a normal human being 'tempted by the Devil.' (Sidious)

Let's go over the traditional Seven deadly sins

Pride, I don't think I need to argue here.
Wrath, Okay I don't think I need to cite examples here.
Greed, Anakin wants power/prestige/knowledge
Lust, the Isolde to his Tristan in Padme. There's also the "anvil over your head" scene where Anakin suspects Obi Wan as his children's father due to his force vision
Envy, Again, not exactly something that needs to be explained.

Gluttony and Sloth seem to be the only two things Vader ISN'T guilty of.

 

I should have known better than to go off halfed cocked with a philosophical excercise, but let me clarify my position. The potentium does not believe in evil and is for the most part a rather naieve look at the force. It differs very much from Jacen and Vergere's stance in that unlike them it does not acknowledge small evils in the service of a greater good. The potentium sees the force as an inherently good thing, where as jacen sees it as for the most part uncaring, or if not that a force that only cares for the large movements or the very important small.

The potentium is a very specific doctrine. Much like the lutherans it is a divergent splinter of the order with a dogma and a doctrine. The philosophies of Vergere and teh other gray Jedi are not codified and alter as you pointed out between each one.

 

Sloth "If you take the quick and easy path, as Vader did..."~Yoda, ESB. (probably not the exact quote.) There are numerous references within SW (I think I, Jedi or JAT might have had some also) to the easy path (aka Sloth) being a tool of the Dark Side, and who wouldn't be seduced by being able to reap massive rewards without major consequences?

I would accuse Anakin of Sloth when he begins having visions of impending death. He has two options to prevent suffering based on these visions. The first is the one Yoda cites: to let go of his attachments, very Buddhist. The Second is Sidious' solution. Rather than deal with the pain of loss, he will become a Sith and learn how to keep Padme from dying.

Gluttony is difficult to accuse Anakin of. In a broad sense, gluttony is not simply overeating, but overindulgence. Too much of a good thing, if you will. If anyone can think of an example of Ani's gluttony, I'd be interested to hear it.

Let's not forget Luke in DE. Granted, we didn't see him commit any major atrocities (although there were decent sized crews aboard those WDs he ordered to Self-destruct, and you could argue he is somehow responsible for the lives lost when rescue attempts were made). He still became the Emperor's servant in the matter of a few minutes it seemed.

 

Gluttony I think would be obvious, because it goes hand in hand with Greed. Not only had Anakin wanted the power, but he got it, and he absorbed it, and he became it. And he wanted more, more and more. If that's not a glutton...

The Dark Side turns all of its users into gluttons.

 

Funny that you begin by saying not to bring in religious philosophy and open the can that containts Catholicism's Seven Deadly Sins.

And isn't Sloth (or Acedia) laziness/physical slowness, and can be interpreted as acknowledging good, but not acting to do good? A little different than the "quick and easy path," it is instead the intentionally dark path.

 

It's more philosophical, I think. The seven deadly sins aren't so much "these send you to Hell"...well they are...but more importantly they are seven traits that make you a crappy person. They eat away at you. Anyway it's important to remember that the Deadly Sins are not scriptural but philosophical.

Partially, though I believe that there is an element of sloth in Anakin's choosing the "quick and easy path" rather than the arduous, measured, controlled path of a Jedi. "Obi-Wan's holding me back!" It's not sloth in the traditional sense, but still...anyway complicity and evil are different, though to what degree depends on which idealist you're talking to.

As for gluttony, it's very difficult to pin overindulgence on Anakin. His entire life has been spent eschewing pleasure. Even while he breaks doctrine, Anakin attmepts to remain hyper-orthodox. Gluttony and greed can't really be yoked together here. Gluttony is when one's consumption consumes him. Is it possible his hunger for greater knowledge and power consumed him?

 

They harry the strongest of Jedi, of course, but those Jedi are generally conscious of the fact, and try to master their faults. Anakin was too self righteous to realize - most of the time - that he was wrong.

 

Unbiased opinions:

Jedi = Good
Sith = Evil
Potentium = Flawed and ultimately users will fall to the Dark Side.

The first two are from Lucas and the latter is from OOU explantion in Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

That's about as unbiased and factual and canonical as you're gonna get. Everything else is rationalization and/or window dressing.

 

The problem I see with Kreia's theory, is that the Force exist in all living things. Some feel the force, some don't. Would the utter destruction of the force weaken/destroy most forms of life?

I think a Grey Jedi is a perfect state of existence, but not one that is obtained easily. In fact, I would deem it to be almost impossible. Is it possible that Qui-Gon could be percieved as a Grey Jedi? He serves the will of the force by any means necessarily. If the Force tells him he needs to free Anakin, he is not above cheating a chance cube. He is scorned by many members of the Jedi Order for his Maverick attitude, indicating that he does not truly follow the pure light side philosophies that they have laid forth. However, he does not tumble completely into the Dark Side and probably never would. Qui-Gon lives in the moment and does what he deems to be necessary, hurting some along the way but for an overall PURPOSE. Kreia and Reven I would believe to have injured or killed people for no particular reason other than to feed their own personal desires. Qui-Gon did no such thing. Perhaps this is why he was the first to become one with the force, because he understood the true balance between light and dark.

Carnage

 

"Light Side- Let the Force control you."

Why is this considered good? Freedom is very important. And yet the Jedi are willing to forsake it compeletly? Thta just isn't right.

Plus:
"Luke: So it controles your actions?"
Obi: Partaily, but it also obeys your commands."

 

Why is this considered good? Freedom is very important. And yet the Jedi are willing to forsake it compeletly? Thta just isn't right.

Not necessarily actually. The Jedi choose to serve the "Will of the Force" because they believe its perfect and will make everyone happy. It's somewhat like the military to some extent. You obey because you presume your superiors have a better understanding of the situation.

The Jedi TRUST the Force to be correct in the decisions it implies.

Re: Jacen and the Force's Will

I think honestly its really a question in Jacen's case whether or not its possible for essentially schizophrenia to exist and be mistaken for the Force or whether or not that there IS a seperate corrupted Dark Side (composed of various evil human wills). In which case, the Jedi Knights have the "Hamlet" dilemna. Hamlet's problem wasn't that he had to kill his Uncle for killing his father. Hamlet would eagerly kill the man. Hamlet just wasn't sure the ghost he saw was his father (The Light Side substitute in this case) or a demon sent to torment him (The Dark Side?) by lying. In today's society, we'd probably substitute mental illness but the supernatual possibility of a misleading tempter is still there.

I don't think the Force ever wanted the Killiks' destroyed.

Re: Grey Jedi

What it boils down to I think is whether or not we accept that "The Light Side" in Star Wars is actually what the Jedi Knight's Council depicts. Is it a dogmatic, perfectionist, sterile thing or is what Qui Gon Jinn depicts the REAL Light Side. Aka something that covers a wide spectrum of Life and all its intercacies. It may prove that the Living Force and the Unifying Force are two different ways of looking at the Force that IS important rather than just the basic "Light and Dark"

Living Force Jedi like Qui Gon believe that life should be accepted in its diversity. They also tend to believe very strongly in themselves and the 'Will of the Force' seems to be secondary to the choice to follow it in a 'vague manner.'

While Unifying Force Jedi attempt to make the Force/universe as "perfect" and mathmatical as possible. The Will of the Force seems to be 'everything'

In which case, if we accept that definition, I think people would be a A LOT more passionate about which of the two they think is the right way of looking at the cosmos.

Grey Jedi we know are mavericks and rogues from the Jedi Order but its only Count Dooku, Darth Traya, and Brakiss who believe in the Dark Side as well as the Light Side yet attempt to use both in order to empower themselves. In this "I attempt to draw from both sides of the Force for my power" definition that many RPGers advocate, all three were Dark Siders.

Re: Anakin and the 7 Deadlies

Yeah, for the Seven Deadly Sins its more an issue of using an analogy really rather than "The Force is the Devil" as Boba Matt said.

Thanks btw Sephy Clone 15

Gluttony

Some good suggestions but strangely, I think we may have missed that Gluttony WAS one of Anakin's desires. Lucas describes that Anakin doesn't want to let go of anything. More than mere Greed to possess is the fact Anakin wants to monopolize Obi Wan, Padme, Palpatine, and the attention of the galaxy on him. Anakin wants fame, the respect of his peers, the pride of his family, and constantly reassured in his ego that he's the Force's gift to the Universe (whether its true or not, its an unbecoming quality).

The biggest thing is Anakin doesn't want to give up his place as the Chancellor's Confident and The Love of Padme for his responsibilities as a Jedi Knight and Galactic Hero.

Anakin I tried to make a case for hubris too but aside from believing he's better than the Jedi Council (likening them to the gods) I really can't come up with anything.

 

Defining whether the Force is sentient is honestly one of those questions that basically is perhaps too testy for many people. It crosses the invisible barrier where the Force is too much like real world religion.

My best definition is "The Force is not anthromorphized or humanlike but has qualities of a sentient entity."

 

Qualities of the Force that we seem to THINk is accurate.

* It has a will.
* It doesn't have a Jesus like figure of incarnation (Jesus was the Force, Anakin was a creation of the Force)
* It never speaks directly, only nudges
* It is composed of all sentient beings as a part of its body and spirit.

 

I think both philosophies (light/dark & Potentium) can be correct and followed without corruption, from a certain point of view.

I suppose you could think of it as a mind over matter type thing. If you have been trained to fear the dark side, then you will believe you are going dark when you do thinks that you were trained to think lead you to the dark side.

However, it's easy to say that the Jedi followed the traditional way for so long because it was the best philosophy. If they used relatively the same rules for 25,000 then they had to have gotten something right, right?

From a Sith perspective (or just a person who finds reasons to hate Jedi) might take a look at history and think "Okay, they preach "beware of the dark side" when fighting enemies they label as "darksiders", then when they're losing against the Yuuzhan Vong they switch their philosophy entirely so they don't have to hold back any power and conquer the enemy." I won't be at all surprised if Lumiya pulls this card in LotF.