The Zahnverse and the EU (Allegiance spoilers)

Honestly, it's come to the point that the GFFA has branched into three alternate universes as near as I can tell. The first universe is the Star Wars movieverse where everything ends happily ever after after Return of the Jedi. The second universe is the GFFA as we know it that's continuing into Legacy while the third and distinct universe is the Zahnverse. Not the Bantamverse, though I debated, that designation but the Zahnverse.

The Zahnverse is like David Weber's Honorverse (which Zahn coincidentally wrote for). It includes a few other books like the Rogue Squadron series by Stackpole but I don't really think it includes anything else since its' shaped very much by his assumptions about how things work in the SW universe. The rules are always consistent with how he views the universe but never bend. Allegiance is no exception to this rule and I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

Here's some basic rules that I think that eight books has taught us about Timothy Zahn's Universe. I've bolded what is sort of out of phase with the rest of the SW universe.

* The military is extraordinarily small. 200 dreadnoughts can change the course of a galactic war, 50,000 troopers a month is a huge gain, and 5 stormtroopers are cause for concern to a Sector army.
* The Rebellion isn't interested in overthrowing the Empire so much as pruning away the corruption.
* The Empire can barely afford to build the Executor-class of ships let alone rampant overspending.
* Palpatine and Thrawn were both visionaries who knew that a greater threat justified their rampant military build up.
* Palpatine's Sith mysticism is less important to him than his political running of the Empire
* Vader is his dubiously talented half-insane henchman
* The Empire isn't generally bad but it has a lot of corruption in the Bureaucracy, a pair of evil dictators for a leader, and a secret police.
* The ISB is one of the most powerful organizations in the Empire with its own private arm of the military
* The Imperial Military is extremely good at its job.
* Jedi Powers are fairly limited for the most part and mostly minor physical skills with some physic abilities

I admit, its strange that the thing that sticks out most in Allegiance for me is that the ISB are mentioned as this huge terrifying presence. Frankly, I can count on one hand the number of books I've read outside of WEG where the Imperial Security Bureau is even MENTIONED. Possibly this is because no one cares about it post Palpatine.

It actually reminds me of the Honorverse to a large extent because the Zahnverse is heavily demythicized. While Joruus C'boath wields tremendous power, the Jedi Knights seem to be more Knights of the Republic as opposed to being holy men. I've already mentioned that the Dark Side and Light Side seem fairly irrelevant save as political designations.

I must confess its a simpler and more "realistic" world but its strange to read it as its so far removed from the current universe.

 

And then we got the Charlemagneverse, in which Charlemagne is king and everything is analyzed to death.

 

The Charlemagneverse is more an Otherspace crossroads...

 

I find your observation a bit self-indulgent. It's there because you want to see it. It's there because you just read a Zahn book. There's as much a Zahnverse as there is an Andersonverse or a Stradleyverse or a - god forbid - Mandalorian-infested Travissverse. They're all just logical sub-verses of the verse of Lucas...

 

Well I find that a wonderful suggestion for future topics to determining the "style" of existing authors.

 

... You planning a coup on Havac?

 

To be fair, this is, unfortunately, exactly how it's presented in the movies. Damn you, George.

 

I thought it was interesting and possibly quite telling that they didn't get him to write something for the NJO...

LMAO. I prefer him this way.

I've not got my copy of Allegiance yet but I'm looking forward to reading it in the light of the LoF series and it's portrayal of what the galaxy's like - Heir to the Empire got me back into Star Wars and the Zahniverse is my default view of the GFFA.

 

Agreed. I'm not a fan of Anderson overkill, but neither am I fan of how damn limited Force users are in Lucas' mind.

 

I disagree with this thread.

 

I've never been a big fan of Zahn...he's a wannabe Lucas/Tolkien. Why I enjoy his characters (Jaina, Jacen and Mara)...I think the man needs to just retire...he goes out of his way to confuse the hell out of EU audiences with his own LOTR like version of the SW universe that I just can't get into his books.

 

I don't think you can really claim them as Zahn's characters. He may have created blank slates with those names, but their characters were filled out almost entirely by other people, most notably Roger MacBride Allen, Kevin J. Anderson, and Rebecca Moesta.

 

I'll admit I didn't read your post, Charlemagne, as I haven't read Allegiance, but in regards to the concept of a 'Zahnverse', people don't seem to realize all of the references to previous EU work that Zahn includes. The Hand of Thrawn duology included a large number of references to previous Bantam works (right down to small lines such as "They remind me of those Droch things" that aren't even remotely necessary), as well as the inclusion of the Kathol Rift and the Aingg-Tii monks from West End Games. He even retconned himself into including the Yuuzhan Vong as one of the terrors lurking in the Unknown Regions, and made reference to Rogue Planet in Outbound Flight.

As far as things such as numbers and sizes of fleets go, every author has a different take on that. I see there being more of a Travissverse than a Zahnverse, to tell you the truth. Zahn continues to prove himself accepting of other EU, but fans continue to accuse him of only accepting his and Stackpole's work. In reality, would anyone other than Luceno have taken into account the Marvels that take place in this era?

 

How is that any different from how he's presented in the movies, especially the prequels? Or the prequel-era novels (especially Dark Lord)? The only exception I can really think of is in Dark Empire.

Is it really that far removed from the universe, say, in Legacy of the Force? LOTF also seems similarly "simplified" to me...

 

Dark Empire is Palpatine's defining characterization. Everything else we see is smoke and mirrors.

I think its so far and utterly removed as to not even be in the same galaxy.

 

Ahh. See, if his "defining" characterization is one that is completely at odds with the movies, and is arguably after he's gone insane, no wonder nothing else seems to match up with it.

 

Quote from Return of the Jedi:

*manical cackling*

*various attempts to corrupt Luke Skywalker*

*gloating*

So uhhh what's out of character exactly?

 

I've seen this idea brought up before and I've never bought it and I still don't. Zahn has always incorparated the EU into his work and from what I've read of Allegiance (I only started today but it's excellent so far) this fits in just as well.

 

I think that Zahn does have a slightly different vision of Star Wars than some other authors. He is criticized for his "Mary Sue's" like Mara Jade or "Gary Stu's" like Thrawn being a part of every story he writes but I would rather see him write a handful of characters really well than muck up one hundred different characters. He keeps his stories a little more tightly woven and focused on a few characters. It makes even the grand scheme of things easy to follow.

As far as Palpatine and Vader go....I like the view of Palpatine not really caring about Sith mysticism as much as the running of his Empire. He relied on the Sith stuff to get where he is. Now it's time to sit back and enjoy it. Who would challenge him now? Vader as the insane henchman works for me..perhaps even more in light of the PT because the guy really has nothing much to live for. I understand perfectly why he would be an angry, homicidal wreck. It's a good change from the post-PT whimpering Vader that has become prominent. I like the added depth to his character that his brooding on the events of Anakin Skywalker's life gives him, but somewhere along the line we need to see the brutal and relentless ANH/ESB Vader.

Keeping the Jedi skills to a reasonable level is good too. LoTF and Legacy both scare me...between flow walking and Cade's ability to heal I wonder if there is any end in sight for Force Powers. I like the Jedi to be skilled, great warriors that are able to do a few reall

 

Yeah, I pretty much only agree with this thread in agreeing 100% with Havac...

 

I agree with this thread. You make a point Charlemagne19

 

I don't care enough to agree or disagree.
I do still wonder if Havac was being serious...

 

Well, the ISB is part of COMPNOR, and COMPNOR has its own private military.

As the equivalent to the KGB, the ISB naturally would have a lot of latitude to investigate Imperial personnel on loyalty issues, which is always very big in any authoritarian regime.

 

I'm always serious, Watto, except when I'm not.

However, if I must elaborate, there is no more a Zahnverse than there is an Andersonverse, a Lucasverse, a Stackpoleverse, a Denningverse, a Travissverse, an Allstonverse, a Stradleyverse, a Lucenoverse, a WEGverse, a Wallaceverse, a Karpyshnverse, a Stoververse, a Hamblyverse, a Daleyverse, a K-Macverse, a Cheeverse, a Tyersverse, an Ostranderverse, a Blackmanverse, a Ruschverse, a Millerverse, a Williamsverse, or a Saxtonverse.

Which is to say that everyone has a slightly different take on Star Wars, but it's all Star Wars and it all works together.

And I disagree with most of Charlemagne's opinions on the characteristics of the Zahnverse such as it is.

 

Then what are the characteristics if you're being so contributory.