There He Is! He's Still Alive: Yoda and Obi-Wan Know That Anakin Survived...?

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Let me just start this post by first pointing out that any kudos for coming up with this theory must go to [b]DT421[/b], who was happy for me to post it as a topic in it's own right, having already suggested the theory's possibility to me in another thread.[hr][/blockquote]

And so to the topic:

[b]Are Yoda and Obi-Wan aware that Anakin has survived his lava bath by the end of ROTS?[/b]

Most of us that were spoiled silly on these boards, with access to the novel and the script, etc, were well aware that there was originally a scene planned after Palpatine finds Anakin on Mustafar, in which Qui-Gon communicates with the meditating Yoda on Polis Massa. And speaking for myself, I was just automatically putting that scene in place in my mind when watching ROTS, even though it had been edited out by George. So when Bail interrupted the Jedi master, I was thinking: "that's the bit where Qui-Gon just told Yoda about how to go Force-side"......until DT pointed out something VERY interesting to me, that is, with regard to the edit of the finished film.

If you completely forget the Qui-Gon scene, and watch the transition of scenes as they actually are, what we see is Sidious placing his hand on Anakin?s forehead on Mustafar, followed by Bail interrupting Yoda?s meditation. What the edit does is completely change the context of this segment of the story - [b]Yoda is sensing that Anakin is alive.[/b] And Bail interrupts this by saying that Obi has just made contact. So Yoda will soon know that Obi has already fought the Chosen One and that Anakin has somehow survived.

Not only does is Yoda aware that Anakin survived Mustafar, before then end of ROTS, but he has also clearly informed Kenobi:

[blockquote][hr]YODA: Hidden, safe, the children must be kept.

OBI-WAN: We must take them somewhere [b]the Sith[/b] will not sense their presence.

[i]-- StarWars, Episode III: Revenge Of The Sith, 2005[/i][hr][/blockquote]
Kenobi says: ?[b]The Sith?[/b]. He does not say, ?A Sith?, or ?Sidious?, but talks about them in the plural.
This is further backed up by what Obi-Wan tells Luke in ROTJ:

[blockquote][hr]Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor, [b]you were hidden from your father when you were born[/b]. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.

[i]-- Obi-Wan Kenobi, StarWars, Episode VI: Return Of The Jedi, 1983[/i][hr][/blockquote]
Obi-Wan clearly references Anakin, as if he knew his former apprentice was still alive at the time that the twins were hidden.

And although I am not the biggest advocate of the [i]OS[/i], due to it being written by people with their own opinions of George's story, we also have this, from the [i]Databank[/i], to further back that up:

[blockquote][hr]Luke was born during the chaos as the galaxy transitioned from Republic to the tyrannical Empire. He and his twin sister, Leia, [b]were secretly spirited away from his father[/b] and the Emperor. Luke was taken to live with Owen and Beru while his sister was taken to Alderaan to be raised by Viceroy Bail Organa.

[i]-- StarWars, Official Site Databank[/i][hr][/blockquote]
This theory certainly fits with what we know of Yoda's having kept a watch over Anakin through the Force, as the years have passed. He feels Anakin's pain at the death of his mother, and the subsequent Tusken slaughter; he feels Anakin's fear and anger when Padme falls from the Republic gunship and Kenobi has to talk him round; he seems very well aware of who Anakin is concerned about, when he is discussing his premonition. And most significantly, he feels the fall of the Chosen One to the dark side.

Also, his watching over Anakin ties in perfectly as a parallel, with his comment about having done the same with Luke for so many years, in [i]The Empire Strikes Back[/i].

What this theory ALSO does, is have fairly large ramifications for the perception of the two remaining Jedi in the OT, and what they are trying to a

 

Ah, glad you started this thread, JR.

Not sure if there is anything I can add, other than I always felt it was pretty obvious that Obi and Yoda knew Vader was still alive as we enter the OT.
I was surprised that some people thought they didn't.

Makes sense to me now that they are pretty sure he still lives before the credits even roll on ROTS...

 

I doubt they know hes still alive.

I believe they learn he is still alive in the period between Ep3 and 4. More then likely on Vaders dash for power.

 

Padme also says "There is still good in him, Obi-Wan" and Kenobi's look seems to suggest that he either doesn't believe her or that he doubts her. Either way, it seems to me that both Obi-Wan and Padme somehow knew Anakin was still "alive".

- O_F

 

>>>>I doubt they know hes still alive.

So how do you eplain Kenobi's saying 'the Sith', Viper?
Or Padme's stating that she knows that there IS still good in her husband?

Excellent point btw, Frans.
I'm not sure how I, of all people, missed that out from my initial post!


-JR

 

I buy it.

You sold me on the Tusken slaughter paralel.
We will find out in "Dark Lord" that the little green friend knows that Vader lived.

 

Great observation, i never noticed that before. The audience gets the idea that Anakin is obviously alive from Padme's remarks (and because we all know he is Darth Vader), but i totally forgot that Obi-Wan might have thought that Anakin was dead, and what Padme said is meaningless to him.

 

How about the fact that padme doesn't even know what Obi-Wan did to him? Did you even look at the look on Obi-Wans face when she said that? Obi-Wan left him there to die, he did not know he would become the Darth Trashcan in the future.

And the Sith does not mean 2 or more. The sith are a group so when Yoda states "Destroy the Sith we must" had it been only palpatine he STILL would of said "Destroy the Sith we must"
Just like Luke is the last of "THE JEDI"

Because Palpatine is a sith lord.

And not even in the book is it even hinted at that Obi-Wan or Yoda thought Anakin was still alive.

 

Good point about "you were hidden from your father when you were born".

 

The first post is well thought out...

Meditate on this topic I will...

 

"The Sith" could be reffering to the imminent "rule of two",that if Anakin is dead, Palps will have another apprentice soon enough.

 

Padme didn't have a clue about what had happened to Anakin. She has absolutely no reason that believe he might be dead. So I don't think that's a very good argument. As to Kenobi's referencing "the Sith"....you might have a point there. Although one could just as easily argue that since the "always two there are" rule has been established, Yoda and Obi-Wan would have still continued to refer to "the Sith" in plural, because they knew that Darth Sidious would eventually end up taking an apprentice sooner or later, whether it was Anakin or not.

Personally, I'd bet that Obi-Wan did know (or, at the very least, strongly suspected) that Anakin had survived. Several of the points you made in your original post would agree with that. And according to the ROTS novel, Obi-Wan felt the Emperor's shuttle arrive over Mustafar right after he had defeated Anakin on the lava bank, and knew that he had run out of time (they would have to leave the planet as soon as possible if they wanted to escape). So when Obi-Wan left him, he knew that Anakin was still alive....he didn't feel his death in the Force. And he knew that the Emperor had just arrived to rescue Anakin. So I'd say that Yoda and Obi-Wan did know, or strongly suspected, that Anakin had survived. They just didn't know how he was doing, what condition he was in, or what was going to happen to him next....although they had about 20 years to figure that last part out.

 

I think it's pretty obvious that they know Anakin's still alive. They both heard Sidious call Anakin "Lord Vader" on that security hologram, and who should pop up as the Emperor's right hand man in black but Darth Vader. I very much doubt that they would believe that the Emperor would have two consecutive apprentices named Darth Vader.

Good catch on that edit, though, OBIWAN-JR! It certainly does change the context of that Yoda scene!

 

Does Obi-Wan still believe in the prophecy by the end of ROTS? It makes you think he might if he chose not to kill Anakin.

Then again, HE wanted to be sent to kill Sidious, so maybe not. Maybe it was really a deathwish, rather than to be sent to kill Anakin.

Then AGAIN, he seemed to have more faith in the prophecy than Mace or Yoda on the gunship.

 

If you completely forget the Qui-Gon scene, and watch the transition of scenes as they actually are, what we see is Sidious placing his hand on Anakin?s forehead on Mustafar, followed by Bail interrupting Yoda?s meditation. What the edit does is completely change the context of this segment of the story - Yoda is sensing that Anakin is alive. And Bail interrupts this by saying that Obi has just made contact. So Yoda will soon know that Obi has already fought the Chosen One and that Anakin has somehow survived.
this is a very good indication that he knows. it's not the first time we've seen yoda on the alert when something happens to anakin. the best indication we have imo.

Kenobi says: ?The Sith?. He does not say, ?A Sith?, or ?Sidious?, but talks about them in the plural.
this doesn't necessarily mean anything though. in aotc, i seem to recall yoda speaking about "the sith" even if he doesn't know if there's an apprentice yet (i think it was when mace and yoda were talking:"only the sith knows of our weakness...").

anyway, yoda could be referring to the future. and what is almost certain, is that there will be one more sith because of the rule.


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Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.

-- Obi-Wan Kenobi, StarWars, Episode VI: Return Of The Jedi, 1983
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Obi-Wan clearly references Anakin, as if he knew his former apprentice was still alive at the time that the twins were hidden.
another strong point imo, although i suppose it could be just a way of avoiding going into all the details about obi wan not knowing that that anakin was alive. the meaning thus becomes more important than the accuracy.

i'm still not sure wether they knew or not, but there seems to be more supporting that they did know.

 

They knew Vader was alive by the beginning of the OT, probably from other sources, but thats 20years later. Like mentioned, Padme didnt know what Obi-Wan did. And I doubt Yoda sensing Anakin alive. I think jedi only positively sense when there is a disturbance, like a death. Remember, Yoda was preoccupied with Sids during the Obi-Wan/Anakin battle. Not much time to comtemplate anything else. If Obi-Wan had killed Anakin during that time frame, its doubtful that Yoda would have sensed it anyway. So Yoda is just left uncertain.

 

It's a neat theory, but it's all a moot point.

They clearly know Anakin is alive as Vader, because that's one of the first bits of information qui-gon is going to pass along.

Our heroes know a lot more in the OT about what their journey will entail than they are letting on. Rather than fly by the seat of their pants as in the PT, they are cruising on the guidance of Qui-Gon and the Force itself.

They play dumb for Luke, but as an audience who has seen the PT, we know better.

 

So where was qui-gon when they needed to know about the fact the emperor is palpatine? Qui-gon is not all knowing, and neither is Obi-Wan.

 

I?m going to say that Yoda and Obi-Wan weren?t sure if Anakin survived or not. IMO, they might think he?s dead, but they were always open to the fact that he might?ve survived. So, that could be why Obi-Wan told Luke that he was hidden from his father when he was born. Because at the time of Yoda and Obi-Wan?s discussion of what will happen with the twins, they were both uncertain of Anakin?s condition and decided that they?ll keep the twins in a safe place to hid them from Palpatine and Anakin if he happened to be alive.

OBIWAN-JR posted:

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YODA: Hidden, safe, the children must be kept.

OBI-WAN: We must take them somewhere [b]the Sith[/b] will not sense their presence.

[i]-- StarWars, Episode III: Revenge Of The Sith, 2005[/i][hr][/blockquote]
Again, he could've said "The Sith" because he wasn't sure if Anakin was dead or alive. Even if they thought Anakin was dead this line would still be the same. It wouldn't take long for Palpatine to get a new apprentice if he wanted too.

[blockquote][b]OBIWAN-JR[/b] posted:
[hr] Or Padme's stating that she knows that there IS still good in her husband?[hr][/blockquote]
I don't think she knew of Anakin's condition when she said this and here?s why: Think back to the scene on Mustafar when Padmè is laying in the ship injured and asks: "Obi-Wan, is Anakin alright?"

She was unsure of his condition then, and was still unsure of the condition after she gave birth. All she knew was that there is still good in Anakin, dead or not.

 

In the novel, Obi Wan sees Sidious' ship approaching Mustafar as he leaves Anakin on the lava/sand. I'm thinking he knows Sidious' is going to take Anakin, and he knows he is leaving Anakin alive.

Also, I believe that Yoda did feel it in the force when Anakin fell to the Dark Side... you clearly see him step backwards similar to the way Obi Wan did at the destruction of Alderaan in ANH.

I just can't believe there wasn't some kind of conversation on Bail's ship between Obi Wan and Yoda where Obi Wan informs Yoda that he left Anakin alive on the sand (after dismemberment/burning) and that Sidious' ship was approaching to claim Vader. Then Yoda would probably say something to the effect of "if you left him alive, then alive he still is..." Remember, Obi Wan and Yoda know very well what Sidious' can do to 'beings' that are in need of repair... think, General Grievous.

 

You and DT ought to get some kind of award for good ideas and threads, JR. I've always thought they knew he was alive, but wasn't sure they knew he was at the end of ROTS, although all signs pointed to it. Most notably, Obi-Wan's mentioning of "the Sith." And I hadn't even drawn the parallel between Sidious laying his hand on Anakin and Yoda thinking, but it makes sense with the Tusken/Yoda scene, and Yoda sensing Anakin's fall. To take the theory even farther, when Yoda says, "No there is another" - He could be referencing Anakin, after watching him all these years, maybe he senses Vader's conflict.

 

Wow, I love that thought... I never thought Yoda was referring to Leia, but I just wasn't sure who.

 

Ben: "The other he spoke of is your twin sister"

- O_F

 

maybe because when your dismembered and burning alive its not likely you will live? Obi-Wan only left when Anakin caught on fire. If you were in Obis shoes would you believe him to still be alive. HELL NO. He was as good as dead.

 

"Padme didn't have a clue about what had happened to Anakin. "

I tend to disagree, and here's why . . .

GL went out of his way to show us a connection between Padme and Anakin as she stood by her window looking at the jedi Temple while Anakin looked across Corsucant towards her apartment. I thought along with the Opera scene and the scene of Palpatine announcing to Anakin in his anti-chamber that he was trained in the ways of the force that the "Anakin-Padme at a distance" scene was among the best in ROTJ. Padme and Anakin are shown to be spiritually bound to each other across time and space. They each draw their strength from one another, and this scene shows that each senses the presence of the other.

Now, fast forward to her giving birth, the painful memory of Anakin's choking her on Mustafar a horrible nightmare seared into her memory along with her husband's rant about ruling the galaxy. As she exhausts herself giving birth to Luke and Leia, she senses her husband's rage, his physical pain, his dark hopelessness and complete dispair. As Padme dies, Darth Vader (Padme's nightmare and the exact opposite of the man she fell in love with) is born. Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith and Apprentice to Darth Sidous still has a sweet spot though, and Padme make's sure that she plants this notion into Obi-Wan's head before she expires.

Now, on to JR's thread -- nifty theory. I can't wait to get the DVD and reinforce this visually. From recall from the movie timeline I believe that this theory is dead on. We on these boards have a tendency to splice rumored and deleted scenes into the timeline of the movie, but this may be doing old GL a huge disservice as a film maker. This visual progression JR presents here makes complete and total sense, but so too does Qui-Gon, as Yoda soon mentions him to Obi-Wan after Padme dies. I like the unexpected though, and think Yoda being aware of Vaderkin makes total sense as well.