There Is Still Good In Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Be Redeemed?

Jedi_Master_Ousley asked me if I could post this here in the CT forum, too. It has been a long-time thread in the ROTS forum, but is very suited to this forum, due to it's focus on the Jedi of the OT, and the way in which they approach their training and mentoring of Luke, 19 years after the fall of the Republic, the Jedi Order and specifically the Chosen One. The question is thus:

Do Yoda and Obi-Wan believe that Anakin can be redeemed after the events of Revenge of the Sith?

This is what Lucas had to say about the possibility:

---

The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia?s father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi the film is really about the redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. [b]All those years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father.[/b] That?s what Ben has been doing, but you don?t know this in the first film.

[i]-- George Lucas, Laurent Bouzereau, The Annotated Screenplays[/i][hr][/blockquote]

It is clear to me that Obi-Wan cannot bring himself to destroy Anakin in his duel at the end of Episode III. He pleads with Anakin not to try his leap to the bank of the lava river on Mustafar, even though Yoda has specifically given him the mission of destroying the Sith. And when Anakin jumps, Kenobi chooses not to use a strike that will kill. He leaves Anakin's fate to the Will of the Force. And even though the likelihood should be that Anakin will perish; he does not.

Kenobi has 19 years to ponder the fact that something stopped him from outright killing the Chosen One, and something kept Anakin alive.

He also has that time to think about Padme's last words to him on Polis Massa:

[blockquote][hr]"Obi-Wan...there...is good in him. I know....I [b]know[/b] there is....still...."

[i]-- Padme Skywalker, StarWars, Episode III: Revenge Of The Sith, 2005[/i][hr][/blockquote]
Words that she speaks as she touches the eternal, and becomes one with the mystical energy field that created Anakin to bring balance to the Force. In that moment, she KNOWS the truth. And she tells Obi-Wan whilst he holds the boy in his arms that he will watch over for those 19 years.

Obi-Wan's first reaction after Padme's death is to look down at Luke.

The boy whom the two remaining Jedi train, with a far greater emphasis on understanding the perils of the dark side and with the focus on [b]confronting[/b] his father.

I will just add here that, for a long time before the PT even came along, I was an advocate of the theory that the Jedi were NOT sending Luke to KILL his father. That the way he was trained in the OT focused on his being able to go and face his father without fear; with the Living Force as his ally; with the knowledge that a Jedi never uses the Force for attack; with the knowledge that resisting the dark side was paramount. That, basically, he was to go into the metaphorical cave without his weapons.

Having now seen ROTS, I believe even more firmly that this is the case; that the Jedi change their focus with regards to Luke, because of their failure in the PT. I believe this focus centres on the Jedi not telling Luke what he must do, but letting him find the right path through their guidance; the path that the Will of the Force wants for him to walk. And I believe this focus is because they hope to send a son to try and reach his father, where the Chosen One's wife and 'brother' failed.

By reaching into his heart, and making Anakin understand that there is still good in him.


-JR :)

 

I can't decide, because I believe that it works both ways.



Anakin isn't lost
/LM

 

I believe it does, Lars.

And I guess that is a large part of the reason behind the thread sailing towards 12,000 posts in the ROTS forum...

But for me, it is very clear that Lucas' intent was to show that the Jedi fail in the PT, and therefore I like to believe that they learn their lessons from that failure. And that in the OT they set about putting things right. Qui-Gon's influence here, and the fact that the two remaining Jedi have reached 'enlightenment' 19 years later, cannot be underestimated.

Their training of Luke has it's emphasis on making sure that he is a Living Force exponent. That he is focused on the moment; what the Will of the Force is asking of him in that moment. That the bigger picture will fall into place if he focuses on the here and now with the Force as his ally.


-JR

 

Yes, I agree as well, and the cave metaphor was a good one. Yoda & Ben both insist it's Luke's destiny to confront Vader without being turned to the darkside. Not to eliminate the Sith or the Emperor, but confronting Vader was key. So there is evidence to back up the claim they were counting on Anakin to fulfill his ultimate destiny & bring balance. After all, he IS still the Chosen One.

 

Indeed, Yoda_Lao-Tzu.

And in light of your user name, this will probably make a lot of sense to you:

The Jedi of the OT have reached enlightenment.
They understand that the pairs of opposites - good/evil, dark/light, etc - are just an illusion.
Although they are indeed opposites, they are also complimentary pairs.
In that they can only exist together.
That the existence of one causes the other to appear.

The point being that you CHOOSE one over the other.
Anakin merely needs to accept the existence of the good inside of him, for it to be made manifest.


-JR

 

He can easily be redeemed.

 

While I think it's clear that Ben and Yoda have changed a lot in the CT because of the failures of the Jedi in the PT, I never quite could grasp that they thought Anakin could be redeemed. Except if they simply used reverese psychology, because they very often speak of 'destroying Vader and his Emperor', Luke having to 'kill his own father', and all the other... well... Anakin-bashing, really

Besides, had Obi-Wan killed Anakin after chopping off his limbs, it would have been mercy, so sayeth the book, and 'Obi-Wan didn't feel merciful'. Ewan seemed to make a face like that, too. They didn't really make it look like Obi-Wan was very hopeful. Ever.
Except about Luke. They wanted to make up for their failure with Anakin, by training Luke differently. Their remorse never seemed to reach any farther than that. "Kill them all".
Luke was the only one who truly didn't repeat any mistakes of the past. All Jedi of old failed, Yoda and Kenobi merely tried to make up for it.

 

Yes, they think he can be redeemed. Deep down they know he has to be if balance is to brought to the Force. They just had to rethink a lot of things between trilogies. I also think that Obi-Wan believed that Anakin could be brought back much more than Yoda did. Obi-Wan needed to believe that Anakin could be brought back.

because they very often speak of 'destroying Vader and his Emperor', Luke having to 'kill his own father', and all the other... well... Anakin-bashing, really

But yet Yoda says that Luke must confront Vader, not kill him. Luke is the one who thinks they want him to kill him. However, they know that Luke must be prepared for that scenario if it comes to it ? just as Obi-Wan had to be prepared for that scenario when he went to face Vader on Mustafar.

Luke: Then I am a Jedi?

Yoda: Oh! Not yet. One thing remains ? Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

Yoda does not say that Luke has to kill him.

Yoda: Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your father?s fate you will.

I think the point in saying this is to a) make sure that Luke doesn?t underestimate the Emperor and b) drive the point through that falling to the dark side = bad. He doesn?t want Luke to get hacked and mangled and live a life of self-loathing and hatred.

Luke: I can?t do it, Ben.

Ben: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.

Luke: I can?t kill my own father.

Ben: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

Again, Obi-Wan does not say that Luke must kill his father. He must face his father. From that, one could take any meaning: Luke thought that he must kill his father, though Obi-Wan left it open to many possibilities. As I said, he must be prepared to kill Vader if he has to, just as Obi-Wan had to be prepared for that outcome in ROTS. However, I think that Obi-Wan believed Vader could be redeemed, and that is why he didn?t outright tell Luke to kill him.

 

However, I think that Obi-Wan believed Vader could be redeemed, and that is why he didn?t outright tell Luke to kill him.

Or at the very least, Luke had to try. I personally believe that Obi-Wan was aware of the dangers of appealing to the sliver of Anakin lurking in Vader. he was aware that Luke might fail as he had. But, he also knew that Luke was meant to try. he can'r discount the possibility of having to fight and maybe even kill Vader. But that doesn't make the intent to kill Vader the primary mission. Luke must try. If Vader refuses again, Luke must do what he must.

 

>>>>But, he also knew that Luke was meant to try.

No, SF.
Do. Or do not.
There is no try.


-JR

 

However, I think that Obi-Wan believed Vader could be redeemed, and that is why he didn?t outright tell Luke to kill him.

Luke believes the whole time during ROTJ that Ben and Yoda want him to kill Vader. They do not do anything or say anything to make him thing otherwise.

 

That's because he has to be prepared to kill him if it really comes to that.

 

Yoda might have been wise enough to release that Vader could be redeemed, but I really do not believe that Obi-Wan beleived so (and I don't blame him for giving up hope).

This is from the official Obi-Wan biography:

"Though Kenobi felt that the dark side could only be defeated by bringing about the deaths of Anakin and the Emperor, Luke strongly believed that his father still had good in him."

It was Luke who keept saying that Vader could be saved, and Obi-Wan constantly denied it.

"There is still good in him" - Luke
"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil" - Obi-Wan

To me, this sounds like Obi-Wan denying that Vader had good in him, and thus that he cannot be saved. That is what makes Luke's choice so great. Despite what everyone said about his father and who had even cut of his hand, Luke still wanted to save Vader. He surendered to the Empire and thereby put his fate fully in his father's hands. Luke knew that if he did not turn to the Dark Side he could not return alive from the throne room, unless Vader turned.

But Kenobi wanted Vader/Anakin killed. The offical bio says so.

 

I agree with Darthdias. The killing in the Jedi tempel was very hard for Obi-Wan. He still had some hope of Anakin's goodness on Mustafar, but the attack on Padmé made it cristal clear for him: he can not be redeemed. The dark side killed his best friend. Vader killed Anakin.

But Luke things about it in a different way. Like the dying Padmé he feels the spark of light in his father's heart.

And as for the other Jedis arround that did survive order 66. They would rather see Vader dead than alive!

 

>>>>>No, SF.
Do. Or do not.
There is no try. -JR

That is your Uncle Yoda talking. Ben never shares that all or nothing approach. But for the sake of argument, Luke MUST appeal to Vader. He cannot make him come back to the good side. That is solely Vader-Anakin's decision. So, you are right in that he must appeal to the good man dwelling within Vader. But, Vader can always refuse. The Jedi have no guarantee that Luke wil be successful. Only hope And faith in the Will of the Force.

 

You really can?t use the databank as a viable source in this debate. It?s more like a biography of any historical figure ? it?s based on assumption in some places and the true feelings of the person/character are not always known in full. Obi-Wan never said that Anakin couldn?t be brought back, nor did he state that Luke had to kill him.

And yet, just before this Obi-Wan was saying good things about Anakin. He was a great starfighter pilot, he was very strong with the Force, he was a good friend. Obi-Wan was just giving Luke both sides of things. He?s absolutely right that Vader has become twisted and evil. However, that doesn?t mean that he cannot be redeemed, and it does not mean that Obi-Wan believes he cannot be redeemed.

And to me, it sounds like Obi-Wan is trying to show Luke both sides of the coin so he knows what to expect. At the time, Vader was twisted and evil. Luke had to expect this. However, Luke feels that there is still good in him, as did Padmé on her death bed.

That, however, doesn?t mean that Obi-Wan and Yoda didn?t believe that Luke could accomplish this task. Obi-Wan said just as many good things about Anakin as he did about Vader. If he didn?t believe that Vader could be redeemed, why would he bother telling Luke the good things about him? Knowing about the good man that his father once was only strengthened Luke?s resolve.

Yes, I agree with you there. And Obi-Wan and Yoda didn?t know for certain that Vader could be turned. That, however, does not mean that they had lost all hope. Remember, Luke was the ?only hope? (to Ben, anyway ? Yoda felt that Leia was still an option). Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to be strong enough to kill his father if there was absolutely no other choice, but Luke refused to do even that? just as Obi-Wan did in ROTS.

As I said, you can?t use the databank bio to back up your arguments in this.

 

>>>>>But Luke things about it in a different way. Like the dying Padmé he feels the spark of light in his father's heart.


True enough about Obi-Wan in the Temple. The sight saddens and sickens him. Yet, he tries to reason with Anakin before they begin their Duel on Mustafar.

Even before RoTS was released, I belived that Obi-Wan would lose faith in Anakin by the conclusion of the Duel, but only until the twins were born. Obi-wan tried, he failed, his friend's burning hatred enveloped him. But, after the Duel, Obi-Wan is holding Anakin's son as that boy's mother, the woman who Anakin is partly responsible for killing lay dying declaring that there is still good in Anakin. It is from this point that Obi-Wan declares he will look after the boy on Tatooine. I have always found it hard to believe that padme's words fall on deaf ears.

So, if we are to argue that at the Duel's end, Obi-Wan has lost faith in Anakin, I agree with you and have agreed with that opinion for over a year now. But, if we to argue that after Padme's dying words, Obi-Wan remains unmoved, I must disagree.

 

>>>>"There is still good in him" - Luke
"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil" - Obi-Wan

More machine THAN MAN.

On other words: part of the the man - part of Anakin - still exists.
Luke has to know that getting his father back will be very difficult, because he is becoming attached to the idea.

And we all know what having attachments leads to....


-JR

 

"Though Kenobi felt that the dark side could only be defeated by bringing about the deaths of Anakin and the Emperor, Luke strongly believed that his father still had good in him."

I think that pretty much sums it up.

More machine THAN MAN.

On other words: part of the the man - part of Anakin - still exists.
Luke has to know that getting his father back will be very difficult, because he is becoming attached to the idea.

And we all know what having attachments leads to....

No, Ben says that to discourage Luke from that line of thought.

 

I guess we will agree to disagree. But a biography of a fictional character is not the same thing as one of a real live person. In the case of a real historical figure, much must be based on speculation since there is no way for the author to get inside the person's head.

But a fictional character is quite different. The character will have any thoughs or felings that the author desides that he has or had. And I assume that the people writing the profiles has Lucas approval for everything stated there.

Obi-Wan bragged about Anakin to be nice to Luke, so that he would know that his father had not always been evil. But he went to great lenghts of seperating Anakin from Vader, almost like he didn't consider them the same person. Anakin had been the noble good friend, and Vader was the evil machine that needed to be destroyed.

For the benifit of doubt, I will agree that Obi-Wan may still have had a ray of hope for Vader, even thou it didn't come across that way to me. But even if he did, I don't think that he wanted Luke to surrender to his father and have to face both Vader and the Emperor at the same time. Remember, no Jedi knows for sure if the Prophecy is true or that Anakin really is the chosen one. Yoda himself stated that he belived that the prophecy could have been missread. So if they aren't 100 % certain, they aren't gonna send their last hope into a sucide sitaution just in case Vader *might* turn. The plan in RotJ was Luke's own and it was very risky. And I think that Luke putting his life in his father's hands appealed to something within Vader. Despite all his evils, this kid still believed in him, cared for him. Indeed, compassion is what brought Vader back.

 

While I agree that ?Vader killed Anakin? (from that point of view), I think Obi-Wan still felt that Anakin could be ?resurrected? so to speak. If Obi-Wan truly felt that there was no chance for his redemption, he would have outright killed him on Mustafar. Instead, he walked away and left Anakin?s fate to the will of the Force. Somehow, Anakin managed to survive ? there has to be a reason for it. The Force wouldn?t have willed him to survive if there was no hope of his redemption. I think between his survival against all odds and the fact that both Padmé and Luke felt there was still good in him, something had to speak to Obi-Wan saying ?hey, maybe he can be redeemed.?

Agreed. There?s no way to know for sure that Luke will be successful, but that doesn?t mean there is no hope for Vader?s redemption. As I?ve said, they want to prepare Luke for the worst. If all else failed, Luke had to kill or be killed.

 

On other words: part of the the man - part of Anakin - still exists.
Luke has to know that getting his father back will be very difficult, because he is becoming attached to the idea.

And we all know what having attachments leads to.... -JR


Not to mention, at this point in RoTJ, Luke offers the goodness in Anakin as his out. From the moment Yoda dies to the moment he leaves Dagobah, Luke believes he cannot carry on alone. He says as much as he walks out of Yoda's hut. IMO, Ben is focusing on getting Luke off his A#$ and into the game. Luke is not just refusing to kill Vader, he is refusing to confront Vader. He believes that it means he has to kill Vader, and doesn't want to be the cause for his father's death. Very similar to Anakin's refusal to let go of Padme. Luke conclusion: run away from the problem. Let the "another" Skywalker handle it.

 

Well said! Luke's absolute believe in him brings Anakin back to the light.

 

JR, indeed you are powerful. This thread is infectious in any forum.

 

I agree to a point. Yes, it is obvious that Obi-Wan distinguish between Anakin and Vader. Driving the point through that Anakin was a good man would only increase Luke?s desire to bring that good man back. If Obi-Wan truly didn?t want Luke to think there was hope for redemption, he wouldn?t have told Luke what a good man his father was after Luke learns that Vader was his father. Beforehand, sure ? why not? It isn?t going to hurt anything. After, though, Obi-Wan still says good things about the good man that was once Anakin.

Anakin had been consumed by Vader; there is no doubt about it. This doesn?t rule out the possibility that Obi-Wan and Yoda believed that Vader could be consumed by Anakin under the right circumstances.

As for the prophecy? I always assumed that by ?a prophecy that misread, could have been? Yoda didn?t necessarily mean to imply that Anakin wasn?t the Chosen One, but that they didn?t understand the full consequences of what the prophecy entailed. They could have assumed that a Jedi would bring balance, but perhaps nothing outright stated that would be the case. Mace believed that the prophecy was true that Anakin was the Chosen One, but they could have misread exactly what that meant.

But yes, Luke?s plan was his own. All that Obi-Wan and Yoda told Luke was that to become a Jedi, he must confront and face his father. They didn?t say he had to kill him, nor do I believe that was the intent of their training. Luke was free to go about doing this however he wanted.