To Fall So Far, part IX: Jorus and Joruus C'baoth

Two men; one basic pattern. Genetically, of course... but also, in some sense, soulishly.

The clone was mad, it's true, but we know the original a bit better, now, as well. And he wasn't much better. In fact, it seems the clone hadn't far to fall from the original to hit his point of egomania and self-aggrandizement; the original was already there.

It's clear that Joruus C'baoth was a darksider.

It's a bit ambiguous as to whether the original was.

From the Wookiee:

Did the original fall? If not, what kept him in the light, and by how much was he still there?

And the latter: how far was it that he had to fall? How much of his fall can be attributed to the combination of the flash-imprinting from the already unstable original and clone madness? How responsible for his fall is he? How does his darkness compare to that of someone like Exar Kun, Palpatine, or Jacen Solo?

 

To speak of the character of C'Baoth, clone or real, you need to speak of his arrogance and pride as they stuck out a mile. How far is it from pride to the dark side? Probably not that much, as we know the best Jedi are rather humble.

 

I found Mace Windu's entire attitude towards Jorus in Outbound Flight hilarious for some reason.

 

sabs, I don't recall it overly much at the moment; elaborate for me please?

Katana - I think you're dead on. How far away from the dark side is that sort of arrogance. Frankly, I'm not sure that Jorus as of Outbound Flight wasn't borderline dark already.

 

It's almost a shame he didn't make it to the clone wars; he'd have made an examplary villain for Obi-Wan to tangle with, with their utterly distinct personalities.

 

One thing also was he though because he was a Jedi he was above everyone, including other Jedi. The way he ordered people about, including overstepping the captain's authority (!), was terrible.

If Outbound Flight hadn't failed, I like to think that the settlers, particularly Uliar, would have mutinied against him.

 

I think Obi-Wan's conversation with Lorana Jinzler about the miners touched upon the primary reason behind Jorus C'Baoth's fall - obsession. Jorus was obsessed with his project being launched. He was obsessed with its success, hence why he was unwilling to detour around Chiss space. He was obsessed with its well-being, even to the point of directing the minute-to-minute actions of the crew. It's the same obsession Ulic Qel-Droma had towards avenging Arca Jeth's death. It was the same as Anakin's obsession with saving Padmé from her imminent death.

 

Ah, this should be a somewhat interesting conversation. And wonder how many times I'm going to C'baoth in one post. I haven't read OF or Survivor's Quest in a while, so if I refer to anything wrong, apologies. The clone Joruus C'baoth was definitely fell, but he was an insane clone, so that couldn't really be helped. Of course, then we met the original in OF and boy, was he a major jerk. Powerful and skilled, no doubt, stopping a missile through telekinesis, but he definitely wasn't likable.

Was he a darksider? Hm... I don't think so. I'd hope the Jedi would've noticed if he was evil, and being a jerk isn't quite the same as being evil. However, as was mentioned in a recent Legacy issue, one of the basic Sith ideas that has remained constant through the various Sith traditions is the goal of control, or rather the power to control everything, absolute domination. And C'baoth was obsessed with controlling everything he possibly could and making it what he deemed perfect. His poor Padawan seemed like a stew of psychological issues, probably having spent years being vebally berated by C'baoth and she was made a Knight mainly to help C'baoth's pet project. Not to mention how C'baoth wanted to micromanage just about everything. And that's not even taking into account how he viewed the Jedi as superior to everyone else, and in particular, how he was a better Jedi than just about everyone else. The sad part is that in terms of power, C'baoth was almost justifed in those claims, but in wisdom, definitely not. And his negotiation technique were... not very subtle, if I remember right.

Obi-wan Kenobi didn't quite like it, and I can't remember how Anakin reacted to it, unfortunately. I think there was just a stark contrast between the brotherly relationship between Obi-wan and Anakin and the distant Master and... well, she almost seemed more like a servant than anything else.

Before Outbound Flight launched, I don't think he fell, but he was very near that level of obsession and pride to fall, I think. During the actual voyage, with how he was literally abducting colonists' children because they were Force-sensitive, then I'd say he was falling. At the end, he had almost definitely fallen, not to mention it was his ego that helped cause the end of the Outbound Flight, though the Force-choking Thrawn part, while impressive, was also definitely darkside-ish. Though considering that most of the Jedi on board had been killed, due to them being stationed in... I forget where, but I remember most of the Jedi had been stationed in fire control stations, or turbolasers, or something that got blown up by Thrawn first, in a makeshift Jedi battle meld, though Thrawn hadn't actually intended to kill that many Jedi immediately, I think.

About the only good instance I can think of involving C'baoth was when he was talking with Obi-wan, and I think Obi-wan asked why C'baoth was so set on leaving known space, and C'baoth said he sensed dark times coming for the Jedi, very dark times, which was why he was leaving and taking over a dozen Jedi with him. Still not that nice of him to just leave, instead but I appreciate that he was trying to avoid the oncoming disaster, especially since at that point in time, there weren't that many obvious signs yet.

I do wonder how the clone ended up so close to the original, since while I know they took blood samples of everyone who was on board before they left, I doubt they got a flash reading of of C'baoth's mind or however that works (I think it was mentioned that Thrawn tried combining some of his genius with stormtroopers, but it didn't work out), since Spaarti cylinders wouldn't be created for another few years. Unless flash learning was already around, but I still don't see C'baoth participating. Unless the arrogance is genetic, or something, or they just taught the clone and showed it videos of C'baoth or something like that.

Its almost a fun idea to think of what C'baoth during the Clone Wars would've been like. I can see Dooku corrupting him somewhat easily,

 

The meld probably didn't help either.

 

There seems to be disagreement on the point of whether or not C'baoth actually was the Guardian.

 

That's not really relevant, and more apt to start a brouhaha than it is to do anything productive.

 

I was actually disappointed in the way Jorus was portrayed at all. I always viewed the original as a respectable, kindly type of guy, with the clone representing the worst he could be. But instead, we have a Jerkwad Master in the original.
I believe Jorus was very borderline when it came to the dark side. "Aggression" leads to the dark side, and this guy had one hell of an aggressive personality; I would go so far as to say that he was a bully. He knew he had power, and he flaunted it whenever he could. The clone just took Jorus' obsessive and aggressive nature a step further.

 

Hmm, Jorus C'Boath: If the line between good and evil is determined by how one person can or should control the lives of others, up to the point of their very thoughts, then C'Boath was definitely falling as a Jedi. He saw himself as superior to others, so that in turn justified his decision for them. As the mission goes on he takes this further and further, had he not been killed by Thrawn, it's fair to say he would have become a darksider.

What's interesting here is the similarity with Dooku. It seems true to say that either extreme of age is more vulnerable to the dark side than those in their middle age. Youth thinks it has all the answers and demands a perfect world - only later finding out how wrong they were. Elders fall into the trap of thinking their greater experience really does mean they've seen it alll so always placing them in the right. The dark side likes both these attitudes. Add to this a Jedi who is used to exercising power over others and you've got quite a cocktail.

 

I dunno - most fallen Jedi are angsty young men. Old is aberrant.

Unlike with Dooku, it seems clear the Jedi High Council were not fans of C'Baoth at all.

 

Dooku kept his greater ambitions pretty secret; C'Baoth sure didn't seem to.

 

No, he had them parading about with brightly coloured banners and loud trumpets!

 

The original had an agenda, and an attitude to match. The Clone turned out to be little more than a petty imitation.

I could have easily seen C'Baoth starting a Covenant like Jedi Organization of his own given time. The scary part is that he was sooooo respected within the Order that he was given command of like 30+ Jedi and 50,000 civilians on potentially a never ending mission.

I'd go so far as to say that the original C'Baoth was a far greater danger to everyone than his crazed clone was, and why the Jedi couldn't realize it baffles me

 

There's no confusion. He was. TTTSB is your friend.

 

Actually, the Jedi onboard Outbound Flight were already moving to curb C'Baoth's... excesses.

So, most likely C'baoth would have been brought back into line by the other Jedi if he hadn't gotten all of them and himself killed.

 

Really? I was under the impression that the C'boath clone killed the Guardian, as he claimed in TTT. How does the Sourcebook account for this? Madness on C'boath's part, or did an actual fight occur between him and another Force user?

 

I'm glad someone brought up the Dooku/C'Boath comparisons. There are certainly similarities there, though of course differences as well: Dooku of course was far more subtle in his ambitions, or indeed may not even have had those ambitions until he grew too disillusioned with the Republic and the Dark Side really took hold. Yes, he had dabbled in Dark Side research, but most indications seem to be that he did so in a manner that didn't raise eyebrows with the Council.

C'Boath is what Dooku would have been without social graces and feigned (or perhaps self-deluded) humility.

 

He was insane. He just slowly went mad and ended up believing he wasn't the Guardian.

 

That seems like a pretty bad and unnecessary retcon to me.
If he was the guardian, why did both he himself and the natives living there think that he beat the Emperor's Guardian. How come he remembers the last time he was forced to use the force in an exhausting manner as the battle against the guardian (being mad isn't enough for that), and if he isn't the guardian, who is in the tomb that they go to on Thrawn's first arrival?

I really don't see why they changed that. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the way it was before. This, on the other hand, leads to trouble. A wishy-washy explanation is not enough to handle that matter.

 

I always got the impression from TTT itself that C'baoth was the Guardian. He was just nuts -- he's obviously unable to remember anything about it clearly, and he's blatantly insane. Thrawn, the smartest guy in the room, was clearly of the opinion that C'baoth was the Guardian and was just losing it -- it's only the insane guy who thinks he's not who he is, and who commands a tomb to be built for someone who never existed. He's a clone -- who cloned him? Why was a random Dark Jedi clone wandering around the galaxy? How did he just happen to find his way to Palpatine's secret storehouse? C'baoth being the Guardian just adds up.

 

I always figured the previous guardian got a bit power crazy and was planning to try to increase his station in life so the Emperor had C'Baoth kill him and take his place. He just forgot he was there on orders from the Emperor.