Full Series Trade Federation Lucrehulk battleships in the Clone Wars

I found this video explaining that George Lucas didn't want the Lucrehulk ship used in the Clone Wars series because the Trade Federation were trying to maintain an appearance of neutrality during the Clone Wars.

However, doesn't the Lucrehulk ship make several appearances in the Clone Wars prior to "Darkness on Umbara"? I don't get how they could be claiming to be neutral if separatists are using Trade Federation ships.

 

The Republic's laws are corrupt enough that corporations are allowed to do business with both sides while asserting neutrality. Lott Dod claims multiple times in the series that Nute Gunray does not represent the Trade Federation at large and any acts to support the Separatists are being carried out by rogue CIS-aligned elements in the organization. It's obviously farcical, but the Trade Federation has enough sway in the Senate to sell people on this story. I also think it's a safe bet that the airing of their dirty laundry in Sphere of Influence was enough to incentivize the removal of Lucrehulk-class ships from the battle lines to improve their image, but that's unconfirmed as of now.

Now the interesting thing is that by the time of RotS, Lott Dod was dead and Trade Federation battleships were once again part of the Separatist fleet. I wonder if the unaired Padme arc would've delved into any of that.

 

That first sentence is not accurate.

Yes, those battleships did appear in TCW and the movies as part of the Separatist fleets. But they are not Trade Federation ships. They are Separatist ships (supplied by the Trade Federation), and they are painted accordingly. They don't represent the Trade Federation, they represent the Separatists. Lucas simply wanted to make a broader distinction between the corporations and the Separatists, and a new ship conveys that idea better than a mere paint job.

In Sphere of Influence, the blockade on Pantora is a Trade Federation blockade and those ships are Trade Federation ships. The Separatists have nothing to do with it. Examples of separatist blockades are seen in Christophsis and Ryloth.

As for the Trade Federation, as a corporation they are for all intents and purposes neutral, even though it's also no secret that they supply the Separatists. But supplying the Separatists doesn't make them Separatists because it's a corporation, not a system.

The Separatists are supplied by many corporations, as part of the deal these same corporations made with Dooku (the leader and representative of the Separatists) in Attack of the Clones. But what belongs to and represents the Separatists is marked accordingly.

 

So is the techno union more directly involved? Cause Wat Tambor seems to act more like a general, rather than a guy who is simply selling droids to the separatists.

 

Publicly the Federation denied all links to the Confederacy of Independent Systems, despite maintaining a seat in the Republic Senate & supporting militarily the the CIS.

 

It's as involved as the other corporations in that secret meeting. I don't recall Tambor acting more like a general. He's not a military leader. He's a corporate leader and like the rest of the separatist council, he was given a certain amount of (ruling) power by Dooku in return for his allegiance.

 

They had droids that were programmed for military warfare and they were overall the commanders or generals behind the war. General Grievois and other commanders were later used as were more advanced droid models once the CIS became a thing post AOTC. These were arms corporations with their own private armies that joined up to form the CIS in AOTC. They acted more like para-military drug cartels and arms dealer that practically were the military. The Neimodian Trade Federation in TPM militarily invaded the sovereign planet of Naboo. Republic or Republic-aliened planets do not have a standing armies, but small security forces that could be overwhelmed by the Trade Federations true army which was what happened.

 

I understand all that, I just don’t get why aliens from the trade federation and techno union show up in the clone wars cartoon, commanding the droid armies in battle, if they are just arms dealers that are neutral in the conflict. It seems like some alien from a separatist planet should be in that role, rather than a representative from one of the corporations.

 

That's assuming that all Neimoidians are from the Trade Federation, or that a Neimoidian can't be a military leader. There's no reason to assume either.

 

Pretty sure he identifies himself as a representative of the trade federation. It’s in a season 1 episode.

my point still stands about wat tambor.

 

The only Neimoidians in the series that are Separatist military leaders are Mar Tuuk and Lok Durd. They are not Trade Federation representatives.

Wat Tambor was never portrayed as a military leader either. He was made Emir of Ryloth. That's a ruling position, like King or President.

 

Considering Lott Dod calls Nute Gunray an extremists who doesn't reflect the views of the Trade Federation I get the feeling that the other Corporations disavowed them as well (Though this creates an extremely awkward position where the businesses effectively act independently of their leaders).

The films treat Gunray, Tambor and the rest as official separatists, they are called the "Separatist Council" after all. They very clearly have some kind of leadership position in the CIS even if its unclear exactly what it is.

 

The whole things of “neutral” corporations is just a complete mess, it contradicts continuity with the films and even Season 1 of TCW itself.

Do we know for sure Lott Dod died before ROTS and not a bit after?

Wat Tambor’s story just makes no sense in this series, - he is the leader of the Techno Union and Separatist Leader, he invaded Ryloth and even said he’d be willing to die for the glory of the Separatist alliance. Then he is prisoned for ages, yet somehow he’s still leading the Techno Union? And his corporation is seen by the Republic as neutral? Thanks to that “neutral corporations” retcon in S2, they try and make out the Corporations being all in with the Separatists was just a Legends thing, which is a load of rubbish because it’s implied multiple times in Season 1 that the corporations and their leaders are full Separatists.

I like to think the Padme/Tikkes arc would have explained some of this mess, also Brent Friedman said the CIS Council were going to due to appear in a future arc before cancellation, the Tikkes arc seems the most likely to me.

Also on the Umbara featurette Filoni expresses the importance of seeing how the CIS council leaders fit in with the CIS senate and how the Trade Federation went all in with the CIS by the time of Revenge of the Sith as CIS lucrehulks were present again during the battle of Coruscant. Maybe Padme exposed Lott Dod and that’s how he ended up getting killed. With how prominent Lott Dod was in the series it did feel like there was more planned for his character before cancellation.

 

It's not a mess, it's actually quite simple.

The corporate representatives/leaders that made a deal with the separatists (represented by Dooku) are known as the "separatist leaders". They are called "separatist leaders" in Revenge of the Sith because they are the ones who control and supply the separatist armies. As individuals, they have power in the Separatist movement thanks to the secret deal they made, but the corporations they represent are not separatists. They are simply corporations involved with both the Republic and the Separatists.

The distinction between the corporations and the Separatists is not an idea Lucas introduced in TCW, it's actually in the movies. It's just a matter of paying attention to the movie and respective dialogue (something that the EU apparently didn't do):

The separatists are systems, and Dooku is their leader.

Again, a distinction between the separatists and the corporations. If the Republic creates an army, the separatists will seek help from the corporations to supply an army for them. Dooku was basically doing that already, making a treaty with the corporations so that the separatist can have their own army (ahead of the Republic).

Another indication that the separatists are but a customer for the corporations.

Again, it's the systems who will join the separatists, the corporations are just the suppliers of what the separatists are willing to pay. Of course, Dooku is willing to give these individuals some power in the separatist movement, which is what they are after. Greed for power is the fuel behind all this.

 

I agree that a lot of the dialogue in Attacks of the clones shows some of the Corporations to be just war profiteering, although there’s a comment from Gunray where he seems alarmed/shocked at the arrival of the clone army - I get the impression he was very anti republic and was expecting the Jedi/Republic to be finished after the battle of Geonosis.

TCW season 1 established Wat Tambor as a full on Separatist and the Banking Clan and Techno Union had mentions implying they were Separatists as well. Maybe it was due to lack of communication between Lucas and the writing team or maybe Lucas just changed his mind as decided to contradict what was set up in S1 of TCW.

Again I am not disputing that most of the corporate leaders were war profiteering in AOTC, but by the time of Revenge of the Sith those guys were called CIS leaders and were the CIS council, they weren’t called war profiteers or Separatist conspirators.

 

My point wasn't about war profiteering, it's that the movies make a distinction between the corporations and the separatists. They are not the same thing. That's why there's a treaty between them.

Gunray is shocked at the arrival of the clone army, as everyone else. Nobody knew the Republic had an army, except Dooku.

I've explained why they are called "separatist leaders" in Revenge of the Sith. They aren't military leaders or political leaders, they are the leaders of the separatist armies. If the Republic captures these leaders, they can shut down the armies.

 

It still doesn’t make sense to me. If the corporations are just manufacturing and selling droids to the separatists, then why are they in charge of the droid army? Why would nute gunray and wat tambor know anything about military strategy?

 

They don't. They control the armies. They are not in charge of the armies, they are not military leaders. They simply have the "keys" to activate them and shut them down.

 

What about Wat Tambor on Ryloth though? He seemed very involved in military strategy....

 

Just kinda seems like it make more sense for them to sell droids to the separatists and then stay out of the fight. If they build and sell droids, why do they need to be in charge of the army? It’s like if the ceo of Lockheed Martin was commanding troops in Iraq.

 

Nute Gunray is also actively recruiting worlds into the CIS in the first season of TCW.
Alexrd's explanation makes sense to me, though the animated series definitely sends mixed messages, and since we see nothing to the Sep Council in the later seasons we don't really get their role spelled out all that well in it.
Just based on what we have seen, with Wat Tambor on Ryloth and Dods reference to Gunrary, I have always assumed the Council had closer ties to the Separatists than the corporations they represent.

 

As for Mar Tuuk and Lok Durd, it was never actually confirmed that they were with the Trade Federation in fairness. Mar Tuuk was saved from death by Lucas himself so he could reappear (even though he never did) and there was word of Lok Durd being a recurring villain too. It seems TCW team decided to stop using full on CIS Niemodians because they didn’t want to confuse viewers...

The lack of Gunray in later seasons was awful and if he’d been included it would have fixed one of the biggest plot holes. If Gunray is the leader of the Trade Federation, how can Lott Dod convince the Republic senate the Trade Federation is neutral when even Dodd himself says Gunray is a Separatist extremist?

Also do the corporation leaders even run their own corporations by the time of ROTS? I mean the S6 Clovis arc pretty much writes Sam Hill out of existence.

 

I think the most logical way to handle it is just to say he's the leader of the board of directors, or something to that effect. He has the power to set meetings and break ties or something but doesn't have unilateral power to set the Federations policy. (A similar thing might be said for San Hill).
This way they can say that even if he's their most prominent voice he does not reflect the whole organization since the rest of the directors voted to remain neutral or something.

The best alternative I have is something similar to a restraining order IRL, to strip him of his title legally they need to present him with the paperwork which is impossible while he's on the run. It feels like its a stretch, so I prefer the first theory.

 

Other theories that work are 1 the CIS council leaders are shadow leaders and control things in secret through puppets and 2 the corporations split and the CIS council was full of old corporation leaders that took a lot of their assists with them and perhaps illegally stole a lot from the companies.

 

The way CIS and the corporations work during TCW is a mess, cause GL changed his mind several times from when he was making AOTC, ROTS and then TCW.