Vader's Obsession with Finding Luke - Does it Begin in Ep III?

In TESB and ROTJ, we see Darth Vader almost maniacally obsessed with finding his grown son. I'm wondering, does this obsession begin in Ep III? When he finds out that he will be having a child, this is probably a moment of great pride and joy for him. But perhaps he never has the chance to see the children. Maybe the Jedi, sensing the growing dark side in Anakin, immediately whisk the children away, and Anakin never sees them. This could start his obsession with finding his son right from the moment of his birth. I can imagine Anakin maniacally stopping at nothing to find his son in Ep III, just the same as he does throughout TESB. In fact, this could be the very reason for the Duel and much of the chaos I imagine will happen towards the end of the film. Over the next 20 years, Vader probably gives up hope of finding the child, until he learns of his existence after the Death Star destruction and once again renews his mad quest to find the boy. Come to think of it...this puts an interesting spin on the title 'A New Hope.' It is obviously intended to mean a new hope for the rebellion and goodness, but it could also be interpreted as a new hope for Anakin Skywalker to finally find his son.

At the very end, Vader says "Just once, let me look on you with my own eyes." This makes me believe that he never sees his children in his pre-mask days.

 

I think Vader will knowingly allow Obi-Wan to escape into hiding with Luke. With the Sith's rule of two, Vader must know that one day he'll need to oust Palpatine and take over with his own apprentice. After helping the Empire virtually wipe out the Jedi, he won't have many options to choose from. He must have suspected that Obi-Wan might train Luke and one day return to try and topple the Sith. All Vader had to do was sit back and wait for Obi-Wan to deliver Luke to him - trained in the basics of the Force but still susceptible to the Dark Side, especially once Vader springs the truth on him.

 

Of course not. Anakin doesn't even know he has children until much later than Episode III.

 

What makes you think that?

 

How could Anakin not know about them (or at least one)? He isn't blind. We've seen photos of he and Padme together.

Probably the most logical solution is that he believes the child died with Padme, but I see the argument that he knows Luke is still alive. However, that doens't answer the question as to why he never found him. Tatooine is the most obvious place in the Galaxy to hide Luke, I think Vader could have figured it out. Unless, as was said above, he knows of Luke's existence and is biding his time. It may be a bit of a stretch, but it could happen. I'm more inclined to believe Anakin thinks Luke is dead.

 

I don't think Anakin/Vader knows of Luke's existence until after he blew up the DS. He is probably led to believe, probably by Sidious, that Padme and the child(s) are dead. This will be his complete loss of hope.

Also, I think Vader's hatred for Obi-Wan would have prevented him from letting him take Luke and raise him. If he suspected Obi-Wan had his child, he would have sicked the entire imperial forces out searching for them.

 

I don't think Anakin/Vader knows of Luke's existence until after he blew up the DS. He is probably led to believe, probably by Sidious, that Padme and the child(s) are dead. This will be his complete loss of hope.

Do we even know if Anakin knows that he has children until he meets Luke? He doesn't seem to know about Leia, because in ROTJ, when he talks to Luke during the ending battle, he talks as though it came as an epiphany to him.

-Aunecah

 

I'm going to guess that Anakin is aware that Padme is pregnant, but that the relationship falls apart beyond that. I doubt he ever actually sees his children. He may not even know their names. I think the fact that he is so surprised about Leia in ROTJ points to the fact that he doesn't know it was twins, which would lead you to believe that he was not involved with them past the pregnancy. Besides...if he knew that he had a daughter named Leia...whose mother was friends with Bail Organa...he'd have to be a moron not to realize that Leia Organa is his missing daughter. Not only is she the right age, she even looks like her. I feel quite sure he has no idea he had twins.

"Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you can not be turned to the Dark Side...perhaps she will." (in a completely unrelated side note...I think this is my favorite moment of the entire saga...the music is great and this feels to me like the most menacing Vader moment in the entire OT)

Vader seems to be blaming Obi-Wan for hiding the kids from him. And the tone of Vader's statement leads me to believe that Vader doesn't know she existed.

 

yes, stormcloud. Excellent.

Even this late in the Throne Room, Vader is still SO evil. "Then perhaps SHE will...." "Nooooooooo!"

Gives me chills.

Well, as noted above, I think the 2 most logical possibilities are:

(a) Anakin knows Padme was pregnant, thinks she died, thinks the kid(s) (I still think he doesn't know it's twins) died with Padme; or

(b) By the time Padme was "showing", she had picked up on the fact that Anakin was slowly ---> Vader, so she hid the fact she was pregnant from Anakin like she hides it (I assume) from the Jedi and the Senate, so Anakin never knows.

Either way, it seems almost indisputable to me, based on what we've seen of Anakin/Vader in 5 of the 6 films, that he does NOT know of Luke's existence until he blows up the Death Star and becomes a galactic Che Guevera.

As I've argued many times before, Anakin is shown as having a very strong attachment to his family, since was essentially trained too late.

His mother, Padme - and in the novelization, IIRC, he even think Cliegg, Owen, and Beru are good people and it's cool to have a family or something.

He disobeys a direct order from his Master on his first assignment alone to go find his mother (not blaming him for this, really).

He gets involved with Padme and tries to force things pretty much right away, despite his training and Padme's misgivings - and after Geonosis, they decide to get married despite the fact that 24 hours earlier, they decided that they couldn't live a lie - it would destroy them.

Someone who has that much attachment to his loved ones could in NO WAY leave someone like Luke alone for 20 years.

Also, someone above made the excellent point that we assume Anakin and Obi-Wan's falling out is pretty intense and emotional - it seems unlikely that Anakin would let Obi-Wan watch over Luke.

Look at how gleefully Vader pokes fun at Obi-Wan throughout the OT.

Anyway, to answer your question more directly, Storm, I think if Anakin knows Padme is pregnant/has given birth, he would undoubtedly try to find them.

Maybe Mace buys time for Obi-Wan to escape with Yoda, Padme, Bail, and the twins.

Maybe Anakin kills Mace and follows Obi-Wan et al, they fight on some planet, etc.

I can imagine just how angry Anakin would get if Obi-Wan was preventing him, to the point of drawing his lightsaber against his apprentice, from seeing Padme.

 

When Vader says I feel a presense I haven't felt since...... Maybe he was talking about Luke and not Obi Wan? Nah...

I don't know what to think about all this but I do know that in the Thrawn Trilogy EU... I know I know..... But this does have a point. Luke can feel the presense of Leias twins. So wouldn't it make sense that Anakin as a Jedi, a powerful Jedi would be able to as well? Now since I believe that due to the actions in ep IV there is no way on earth he knows about Leia. I also believe that he knows nothing about Luke. So when does he find out?

Well, this really complicates things.... If Anakin knows Padme is pregnant more than likely he could as a Jedi sense them as being twins. If he does this however then the suprise revelation of " a sister...you have a twin sister...." makes no sense.

If she was able to have Luke and he knew this to be his son he would then know for a fact that Padme was with twins so...where is the other one? This wouldn't make sense even were Padme to die. He could put one and one together and get a set of twins as soon as he sees Luke is alive.

He can't know she is pregnant. She can die all she wants but he can't know about the twins. Unless you want to say he can't sense force sensitive beings like suggested to us in the EU.... if you think that to be the case then refer to the first line of the post.

Oh...and no EU is not cannon! Don't even get me started on that.

 

Yet the Jedi cannot sense Palpatine's power when he's 5 feet away from them.

We're not sure at this point what "sensing a presence" means.

Yoda could sense the Dark Side in Dooku but not Palpatine?

Perhaps Force-sensitives can only detect each other's presence when they are using the Force in some way.

So Obi-Wan was using the Force to make sure they were undetected on the Death Star, and Vader sensed that.

 

Yet the Jedi cannot sense Palpatine's power when he's 5 feet away from them.

We're not sure at this point what "sensing a presence" means.

Yoda could sense the Dark Side in Dooku but not Palpatine?

Perhaps Force-sensitives can only detect each other's presence when they are using the Force in some way.

Good points.

Anakin has to know Padme is pregnant. There are photos in the Insider with them together and she looks pretty pregnant to me.

The question is why doesn't he know there are twins. Maybe he does know, and he thinks they both died in the same "accident" that killed Padme. Maybe the Force is clouding the information to help protect them. Maybe the EU is wrong and you can't sense Force sensitve unborn babies. Who knows? But there could be a hundred reasonble explainations. I'm just gonna have to leave this up to George.

 

I think Anakin knows of the children but think that they die with Padme.

 

As some have mentioned above, I am still questioning as to whether or not Anakin knows that he has a child/children.

If he does, I believe he will assume that they died with Padme'.

 

Vader knows nothing about Leia, and he never seeks Luke until ESB. If he knew he was expecting, he never would have left for the Dark Side. Padme's death won't drive him over the edge; his turn is what kills Padme. If Luke was enough to bring him back in ROTJ, news of him earlier would have kept him from turning to begin with. The databank has even said he didn't know. He learns of Luke between ANH and ESB, it's the only way it makes sense. Thinking Luke is dead is a pointless circle. He learns for the first time in the OT.

 

I don't understand the logic behind any of this.

Vader knows nothing about Leia, and he never seeks Luke until ESB. If he knew he was expecting, he never would have left for the Dark Side.

He never would have turned? If she dies and he believes they died with her, then that could certainly push him over. Keep your mind open to Anakin knowing he has at least one kid. It's completely illogically to think he doesn't know. They have to be together in the movie, she's pregnant in the movie, ergo he knows she is pregnant.

Padme's death won't drive him over the edge; his turn is what kills Padme. If Luke was enough to bring him back in ROTJ, news of him earlier would have kept him from turning to begin with.

Why can't it drive him over the edge?? We've seen over and over that the most important thing in Anakin's life is his family. Seperation from his mother, her death, and his secret marriage to Padmé are all the biggest moments of his life. If anything would drive him over, it is her death. How could his turn kill Padmé?? And I say again about Luke, if he thinks Luke died with Padmé, then that explains it. Him having no family at the time of his turn is a perfect explaination.

The databank has even said he didn't know. He learns of Luke between ANH and ESB, it's the only way it makes sense. Thinking Luke is dead is a pointless circle. He learns for the first time in the OT.

The databank is constantly being updated, it's not written in stone. Pablo says that some things written before the PT need to be changed. It shouldn't surprise you that they haven't changed Vader's because it would give away some of the movie. Knowing about Luke (and maybe Leia) in III and then thinking they've been killed is a perfectly logical explaination. Him not knowing Padmé is pregnant at all, makes no sense.

 

As some have mentioned above, I am still questioning as to whether or not Anakin knows that he has a child/children.

If he does, I believe he will assume that they died with Padme'.

It has been mentioned that we have seen pictures of Anakin with Padme and in them she is obviously pregnant.

 

Is that a spoiler? If so, thanks!

Grrrr...

 

Vader knows nothing about Leia, and he never seeks Luke until ESB. If he knew he was expecting, he never would have left for the Dark Side.

He never would have turned? If she dies and he believes they died with her, then that could certainly push him over. Keep your mind open to Anakin knowing he has at least one kid. It's completely illogically to think he doesn't know. They have to be together in the movie, she's pregnant in the movie, ergo he knows she is pregnant.

Your causation is backwards. Padme dies AFTER Anakin turns. His turn is what causes her death, not vice versa. First, Anakin turns, then she gives birth and the children are separated, and last of all, she dies. Lucas has set up the story so far with no reason to believe he knows. The sequence above works within that context. They have sex, but it takes quite a while for a pregnancy to be noticed, and her clothing in E3 is designed to conceal this. His long absences are part of what drives them apart (this much is confirmed by Pablo), and he leaves before she gives birth, and long before she dies. They only need to be together for a few minutes to knock her up. He doesn't need to know. There's no circle of "thinking they're dead, finding that they're not." His lack of involvement in their lives is due to his ignorance.

She obviously has to survive the birth, because Leia remembers her. (This, however, does not mean that she lives several years, and beyond Episode III.) So she can't die at childbirth, hence, it is unreasonable to assume that Anakin thinks she has. Why would they be separated at birth unless Anakin had already turned?

Base your arguments on what is written, not what you think will be re-written.

At the time of his transformation, Vader never knew he was due to be the father of twins. Obi-Wan Kenobi hid the children from the Dark Lord and Vader's master, Emperor Palpatine. Vader somehow discovered that he had a son, Luke Skywalker, but never suspected he had a daughter, Leia, who was secretly taken to be raised by Bail Organa, Viceroy and First Chairman of Alderaan.

First of all, splitting hairs over the insertion of the word twins is pointless. That's like the idea that we'll know Anakin has turned, but not that he has become Vader. We'll know both. In this case, It's not that Anakin knows about the pregnancy, but that there are twins. He doesn't know about the pregnancy either. Plus, it doesn't say he didn't know he was the father of twins, it says he doesn't know he was due to be the father, which means they hadn't been born yet. The only way for him to know about Luke but not Leia is if they are separated before he finds out--but that separation only makes sense as the result of his turn. Hence, he is arelady Vader when they are born, and already Vader when he finds out. That being the case, why does he only start looking around the time period of ESB, 21 years later? Thinking Luke was dead doesn't hold water. The only answer is that he only recently found out.

 

Its not a spoiler. The picture was in the SW Insider. ALL OFFICIAL information released is not considered a spoiler and game for discussion. If you don't want to know ANYTHING about the movie, you might want to turn back now.

Although, Padme had a big black gown on and it was difficult to tell if she was pregnant. Remember that their relationship is a secret. If it was revealed that they were married Anakin would get kicked out of the Jedi Order. The pregnancy issue is just icing on the cake, but if not hidden, it would reveal that she is in a relationship with somebody. However, Anakin will not know that it is twins. This is evident by Vader's revelation from Luke that he has a twin sister.

 

Yes, I concur with Kir. Much of the speculation on this thread can be discarded based on officially released non-spoiler material.

We can safely assume that Anakin knows Padme is pregnant. The real question is, does he ever see the children after birth, and know that he had twins? I'm going to speculate that he doesn't. So, that leaves us with three choices:

1) he assumes his child died
2) he doesn't care about the child and doesn't bother to look
3) he tries to find the child but gives up

I expect that 2 is not likely, which means either 1 or 3. While 1 makes the most sense of all, I would enjoy number 3 more. I would like to see the genesis of Vader's obsession with finding Luke in TESB begin in Ep III.

 

Hmmm...keep in mind, Padme probably tries to hide her pregnancy from the Senate AND all of the other Jedi as well.

Thus, the line in AOTC: "We could keep it a secret...you're right - it would tear us apart."

If everyone found out Padme was pregnant,

(a) it wouldn't be difficult to find out whom the father was...hmm...maybe the Jedi confront Anakin with this (?); and

(b) she would be an increased threat for kidnapping/assassination. "The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any children, they would be a threat to him."

 

Your causation is backwards. Padme dies AFTER Anakin turns. His turn is what causes her death, not vice versa. First, Anakin turns, then she gives birth and the children are separated, and last of all, she dies.

I ask again... HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? How does HIS turn cause HER death? It makes no sense for it to happen that way. Padme is the single biggest influence (besides Palpy) on Anakin- that's what's screwed up about him. She can't just fall to the wayside of the story. When she's gone he has no one left. That is the irony of her character- their illicit marriage is pushing him slowly toward the Dark Side, but she is alternately his last hold onto the Light.

Lucas has set up the story so far with no reason to believe he knows. The sequence above works within that context. They have sex, but it takes quite a while for a pregnancy to be noticed, and her clothing in E3 is designed to conceal this. His long absences are part of what drives them apart (this much is confirmed by Pablo), and he leaves before she gives birth, and long before she dies. They only need to be together for a few minutes to knock her up. He doesn't need to know. There's no circle of "thinking they're dead, finding that they're not." His lack of involvement in their lives is due to his ignorance.

There is every reason for him to know. It is the ultimate irony. He turns (finally) because she dies and so does his child, he is eventually redeemed (a rebirth) because of the "rebirth" of his son. It's circular.... one of the main themes of SW is this circular pattern. Yes, they're keeping the pregnancy a secret from everyone, but it's just plain ignorant to think that he doesn't know. If you have read what Pablo has said then your argument doesn't make sense. They spend time together in the movie- this is confirmed by Pablo and the Insider. It isn't just a few minutes. They're married, obviously he has to spend at least one night with her. He HAS to know, it makes NO sense whatsoever if he doesn't. I guarentee you that he knows.

She obviously has to survive the birth, because Leia remembers her. (This, however, does not mean that she lives several years, and beyond Episode III.) So she can't die at childbirth, hence, it is unreasonable to assume that Anakin thinks she has. Why would they be separated at birth unless Anakin had already turned?

I never said she dies in childbirth. She dies afterwards. I'm saying she dies in some "accident" or set up asassination attempt shortly after the birth, Anakin probably doesn't know she's given birth and think the child must have died with her. It is said that Luke was seperated "from your father to protect you from the EMPEROR". It is perfectly logical for everyone else to see how bad Anakin is getting and how bad Palpatine is. They are concerned about his friendship with the self-proclaimed Emperor and know that if Anakin knows, then so will Palpatine eventually. Anakin is the last to realize anything- how evil Palpy is, and even how evil he himself is becoming.

Base your arguments on what is written, not what you think will be re-written.

I assume you're talking about the databank. Pablo has specifically said that you cannot completely trust the databank entries. They are being changed all the time. Obviously the major characters will not be changed soon because it would spoil the movie. It's the same thing as the novels. The OT novels are full of inaccuracies. Obi-Wan and Owen are brothers, Yoda is blue etc. Trust what makes SENSE in the actual PT story over what Lucas thought might happen several years ago, or what EU writers have come up with.

 

I ask again... HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? How does HIS turn cause HER death? It makes no sense for it to happen that way. Padme is the single biggest influence (besides Palpy) on Anakin- that's what's screwed up about him. She can't just fall to the wayside of the story. When she's gone he has no one left. That is the irony of her character- their illicit marriage is pushing him slowly toward the Dark Side, but she is alternately his last hold onto the Light.

Because they were hidden AT BIRTH. That means he turned before they were born. Even your hair-splitting of the databank entries has to allow for this. He was due to be a father, not a father already. And Padme was never set up to be the character on whom all his ill choices hinge.

 

ecause they were hidden AT BIRTH. That means he turned before they were born.

Yes, they were hidden shortly after being born, but that does not neccesarily mean that he turned before they were born. I don't see how you can make this connection so concretely. There are lots of explainations for why they were hidden. To protect you from the Empreror... not "to protect you from your father." Vader says Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me not NECESSARILY because he already turned... but because he knew that Palpatine would try to turn/kill his kids. And if Falling-to-the-darkside-Anakin knew, then so would Palpy. But Anakin would never harm his kids, it's way out of his character. The most important thing in Anakin's life is his family- that' so obvious... even as Vader.

I don't think it can be any more logical than this.